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  1. #4121  
    Quote Originally Posted by mfive View Post
    Forgive me if I'm ignorant on this, but I've been out of the loop for a while slam-packed with work. But anyway, any ideas why my two apps that are on the precentral.net's homebrew feed aren't in PreWare even though that PreCentral feed is "on"?

    The apps are "Whois Mobile" and "Geocache Locator"
    Do you have "Show Installed as Available" set to no?

    They are definitely in the feed.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  2. mfive's Avatar
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    #4122  
    If this wasn't a forum that would help others, I would delete my original post based solely on my own stupidity.

    Rod, thank you for your help, I can't believe I overlooked something so simple...
  3. hdhuntr's Avatar
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    #4123  
    Not a complaint...at all... Just thought I'd mention that I never had the multiple splash screen problem until after the update that fixed it. I read a page or two and didn't see any others mention it and I only post it now in case Rod or others want to know. It doesn't bother me but it may be useful to know.

    Also, I have Preware and WebOSQI and almost exclusively use preware for everything since a while before 1.3.1 It all works...but I am the one who had to delete Preware and PMS before Classic would let me have its' totally useless...and counterproductive even... update from the app catalog.

    That may have been right before the inclusion of the FD functionality.

    Now, I am seeing the / var messages but don't know how to check that. I am not a programmer. Might I need to get the file mgr and internals? I even found mv to be somewhat intimidating instruction-wise.

    I have a bunch of books loaded in Classic/Audible. Would those likely be in the / var space?
    Thanks,Dave.
    Treo 300,600,650,755p and now Pre
  4. #4124  
    Question, I noticed that many people were claiming to have fixed their App Space Limit by installing Preware. Now, I have had Preware for quite a while, and I have never had the App Space Limit problem INSIDE of Preware. However, I am currently unable to install any apps from the Palm app store because my device tells me I have hit the app storage limit.

    Should I attempt to uninstall and reinstall Preware in an effort to fix this? Does Preware even fix the Official app store limit?

    PS: I also read about a Fair Dinkum patch/service that was able to be installed. It appears to have been released before the feature was ported into Preware (at least, I read that). I tried installing Fair Dinkum and it also did not do anything for my Palm App Store app limit.

    Any Ideas?
  5. cezasf's Avatar
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    #4125  
    Quote Originally Posted by Conceyted View Post
    Question, I noticed that many people were claiming to have fixed their App Space Limit by installing Preware. Now, I have had Preware for quite a while, and I have never had the App Space Limit problem INSIDE of Preware. However, I am currently unable to install any apps from the Palm app store because my device tells me I have hit the app storage limit.

    Should I attempt to uninstall and reinstall Preware in an effort to fix this? Does Preware even fix the Official app store limit?

    PS: I also read about a Fair Dinkum patch/service that was able to be installed. It appears to have been released before the feature was ported into Preware (at least, I read that). I tried installing Fair Dinkum and it also did not do anything for my Palm App Store app limit.

    Any Ideas?
    What Preware version do you currently have?
    You might have to update it to 9.12 and reboot. If you have it already then maybe someone else can help out with this.
  6. #4126  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cezasf View Post
    What Preware version do you currently have?
    You might have to update it to 9.12 and reboot. If you have it already then maybe someone else can help out with this.
    I have version 0.9.12 already installed. I have rebooted many times since this install. Sorry.

    Any other ideas? I assume uninstalling and reinstalling Preware while leaving my patches installed is okay to do?
  7. #4127  
    Hello Preware Team!

    As you know, I have been working for quite some time on the Getting Started: Preware. Thank you all for your help!

    I have gone back through the posts from people having problems with Preware and I think that there are a couple of things that seem fairly straight forward that might help.

    A quote in the WebOS Internals presentation really sums it up:

    "...there's about a 5% penetration of users using tools like Preware versus a rate of about 10% for jailbroken iPhones."

    If 10% of iPhone are jailbroken, 20% of Pre's and Pixi's at this point should be using Preware. We are more nerdy, not less.

    Currently the Homebrew Gallery shows Filecoaster with 180,704 downloads versus Preware with 21,218 downloads. And Filecoaster cannot do patches or themes, etc.

    So maybe 20% of users do want to be able to download directly to their Pre's and Pixi's.

    Before I publish the article, I think that there are some changes that could make Preware be easier for a new user. Most do not directly involve Preware.


    Luna Manager
    Patches require a Luna Restart so Luna Restarts have to be a simple part of the process. I need to include Luna Manager in the Getting Started: Preware guide but there is no Homebrew Gallery listing for Luna Manger or a Luna Manager thread let alone a stickie.

    Request 1: Create and stickie a thread for Luna Manager. State what a Scan, Luna Restart, and Java Restart are. Hours needed: 1/2.

    Request 2: Put Luna Manager in the Homebrew Gallery. Hours needed: 1/2?


    Preware Installer
    The thread for Preware Installer is so important that it should also be a stickie but there is no Preware Installer thread.

    The Preware Installer assumes that you have already installed five programs.
    Unless you are a webOS developer, you will not already have the other software installed and the Preware Installer will give you few clues as to why it keeps failing.

    Request 3: Set up a Preware Installer thread in the WebOS Internals forum to allow users to get help and to give you feedback. Hours needed: 0.

    Request 4: Please try Preware Installer as a typical new user would with nothing but Windows installed on a PC. See what they are going through. Hours needed: 1? Hours needed to create a full instruction set: 50.


    Preware Homebrew Gallery Entry
    The Preware Homebrew Gallery Entry has the new user download the Preware Installer. One extra hurdle for the new user is that it downloads a September webOSDoctor.jar file.

    Request 5: Add a note at the beginning of the Preware Homebrew description to use the Getting Started: Preware guide. Hours needed: 0.

    Request 6: Replace the current installation instructions in the Preware thread opening post with this link: Getting Started: Preware Installation. Hours needed: 0.


    Package Manager Service
    Preware can detect when the Package Service Manager is not installed. If PMS is not installed, why doesn't Preware just install PMS and then tell the user to restart Preware?

    Now you have the real solution for the Homebrew Gallery problem above. The real Preware ipk could be the file downloaded right out of the Homebrew Gallery.

    You could even take this a step farther. If Preware checked for updated Preware and PMS ipk's each time Preware is started, you could insure that users are up to date. If they are not up to date, just pop-up:
    ----------------------------
    A Preware update is available.
    Would you like to update now?
    . . -----. . . .----
    . | Yes |. . | No |
    . . -----. . . .----

    ----------------------------

    Look back at how many frustrated posts this would save with replies that invariably are basically:
    "Are you sure you installed Package Manager Service?"
    "What version of Package Manager Service do you have?"
    "What version of Preware do you have?"
    "Did you install Package Manager Service first?"

    If Preware is not capable of automatically installing the PMS ipk if needed, could it at least notify the user that PMS needs to be installed?

    Request 7: Create a thread for Package Manager Service

    Request 8: If the Package Service Manger check finds no PMS on startup, give a "Package Service Manager Not Found" pop-up message. Hours needed: 1?

    Request 8: Install PMS automatically if needed. Hours needed: No idea if Preware is capable.


    Patches without Threads
    Many patches do not have threads. If we want to offer open source patches, we need open communications with users. That means threads for each one somewhere.

    Worse, for the first time, patches have been posted that could actually cause harm. There were no threads to reference so users are trying to make their own. Some of these patches are now called Obsolete but are still in the feeds.

    Why isn't a thread required for each patch? It's not safe or fair to not allow users a thread somewhere to ask questions or get help.


    Patches
    Some percentage of patch problems are due to the user not doing a restart after installing or removing a patch. Many issue posts say "The patch will not install..." or "I can't remove a patch..."

    The first response back is always, "Did you do a Luna restart?" For each user posting a problem are there 10 who don't post?

    The simplest thing I can think of would be a simple pop-up when you exit either the "Available Patches" or Installed Packages→Patch modules in Preware. I think it only needs two buttons, "Restart" and "Continue" with a simple dialog:

    --------------------------------------
    A Restart May Be Required
    A restart is required if you have installed
    or removed a patch.
    . Restart - closes all apps and restarts
    . Continue - does not restart

    . .---------. . . .-----------
    . | Restart |. . | Continue |
    . .---------. . . .-----------
    --------------------------------------

    You already do a restart after installing Eric's Virtual Keyboard so this is just a retread on that code. Can you think of a downside to offering a restart?

    I think that this alone might address hundreds of issues in the past weeks. What do you think? Is the first version as easy as I think?


    Patch Warning
    Is there a reason that the user get the patch script warning every time they install a patch? Could Preware make the warning the first time the patch or at worst once per session? Does repeating a message actually reduce the chance that a user will read it?


    Emergency Patch Recovery
    Could EPR automatically check to see if the current theme is the Palm default and if it is not give a pop-up that the theme must be reset back to the Palm default? Better yet, could it just say that it needs to first change the theme back to the original and do it for you?

    Also, please put a link to EPR back under Patches, maybe in a new area Patch Tools. People need to be able to find EPR under patches.

    Step 9: Start a thread in the WebOS Internals forum for Emergency Patch Recovery. There are multiple threads asking what EPR is but no official thread so far.


    ----------------

    What do you think?

    - Craig
    Last edited by milominderbinder; 11/30/2009 at 05:38 PM.
  8. #4128  
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Hello Preware Team!

    As you know, I have been working for quite some time on the Getting Started: Preware. Thank you all for your help!

    I have gone back through the posts from people having problems with Preware and I think that there are a couple of things that seem fairly straight forward that might help.

    A quote in the WebOS Internals presentation really sums it up:

    "...there's about a 5% penetration of users using tools like Preware versus a rate of about 10% for jailbroken iPhones."

    If 10% of iPhone are jailbroken, 20% of Pre's and Pixi's at this point should be using Preware. We are more nerdy, not less.

    Currently the Homebrew Gallery shows Filecoaster with 180,704 downloads versus Preware with 21,218 downloads. And Filecoaster cannot do patches or themes, etc.

    So maybe 20% of users do want to be able to download directly to their Pre's and Pixi's.

    Before I publish the article, I think that there are some changes that could make Preware be easier for a new user. Most do not directly involve Preware.


    Luna Manager
    Patches require a Luna Restart so Luna Restarts have to be a simple part of the process. I need to include Luna Manager in the Getting Started: Preware guide but there is no Homebrew Gallery listing for Luna Manger or a Luna Manager thread let alone a stickie.

    Request 1: Create and stickie a thread for Luna Manager. State what a Scan, Luna Restart, and Java Restart are. Hours needed: 1/2.

    Request 2: Put Luna Manager in the Homebrew Gallery. Hours needed: 1/2?


    Preware Installer
    The thread for Preware Installer is so important that it should also be a stickie but there is no Preware Installer thread.

    The Preware Installer assumes that you have already installed five programs.
    Unless you are a webOS developer, you will not already have the other software installed and the Preware Installer will give you few clues as to why it keeps failing.

    Request 3: Set up a Preware Installer thread in the WebOS Internals forum to allow users to get help and to give you feedback. Hours needed: 0.

    Request 4: Please try Preware Installer as a typical new user would with nothing but Windows installed on a PC. See what they are going through. Hours needed: 1? Hours needed to create a full instruction set: 50.


    Preware Homebrew Gallery Entry
    The Preware Homebrew Gallery Entry has the new user download the Preware Installer. One extra hurdle for the new user is that it downloads a September webOSDoctor.jar file.

    Request 5: Add a note at the beginning of the Preware Homebrew description to use the Getting Started: Preware guide. Hours needed: 0.

    Request 6: Replace the current installation instructions in the Preware thread opening post with this link: Getting Started: Preware Installation. Hours needed: 0.


    Package Manager Service
    Preware can detect when the Package Service Manager is not installed. If PMS is not installed, why doesn't Preware just install PMS and then tell the user to restart Preware?

    Now you have the real solution for the Homebrew Gallery problem above. The real Preware ipk could be the file downloaded right out of the Homebrew Gallery.

    You could even take this a step farther. If Preware checked for updated Preware and PMS ipk's each time Preware is started, you could insure that users are up to date. If they are not up to date, just pop-up
    ----------------------------
    A Preware update is available.
    Would you like to download it now?
    . . [YES] - [NO]
    ----------------------------

    Look back at how many frustrated posts this would save with replies that invariably are basically:
    "Are you sure you installed Package Manager Service?"
    "What version of Package Manager Service do you have?"
    "What version of Preware do you have?"
    "Did you install Package Manager Service first?"

    If Preware is not capable of automatically installing the PMS ipk if needed, could it at least notify the user that PMS needs to be installed?

    Request 7: Create a thread for Package Manager Service

    Request 8: If the Package Service Manger check finds no PMS on startup, give a "Package Service Manager Not Found" pop-up message. Hours needed: 1?

    Request 8: Install PMS automatically if needed. Hours needed: No idea if Preware is capable.


    Patches without Threads
    Many patches do not have threads. If we want to offer open source patches, we need open communications with users. That means threads for each one somewhere.

    Worse, for the first time, patches have been posted that could actually cause harm. There were no threads to reference so users are trying to make their own. Some of these patches are now called Obsolete but are still in the feeds.

    Why isn't a thread required for each patch? It's not safe or fair to not allow users a thread somewhere to ask questions or get help.


    Patches
    Some percentage of patch problems are due to the user not doing a restart after installing or removing a patch. Many issue posts say "The patch will not install..." or "I can't remove a patch..."

    The first response back is always, "Did you do a Luna restart?" For each user posting a problem are there 10 who don't post?

    The simplest thing I can think of would be a simple pop-up when you exit either the "Available Patches" or Installed Packages→Patch modules in Preware. I think it only needs two buttons, "Restart" and "Continue" with a simple dialog:

    --------------------------------------
    A Restart May Be Required
    A restart is required if you have installed
    or removed a patch.
    . Restart - closes all apps and restarts
    . Continue - do not restart

    . .---------. . . .-----------
    . | Restart |. . | Continue |
    . .---------. . . .-----------
    --------------------------------------

    You already do a restart after installing Eric's Virtual Keyboard so this is just a retread on that code. Can you think of a downside to offering a restart?

    I think that this alone might address hundreds of issues in the past weeks. What do you think? Is the first version as easy as I think?


    Patch Warning
    Is there a reason that the user get the patch script warning every time they install a patch? Could Preware make the warning the first time the patch or at worst once per session? Does repeating a message actually reduce the chance that a user will read it?


    Emergency Patch Recovery
    Could EPR automatically check to see if the current theme is the Palm default and if it is not give a pop-up that the theme must be reset back to the Palm default? Better yet, could it just say that it needs to first change the theme back to the original and do it for you?

    Also, please put a link to EPR back under Patches, maybe in a new area Patch Tools. People need to be able to find EPR under patches.

    Step 9: Start a thread in the WebOS Internals forum for Emergency Patch Recovery. There are multiply threads asking what EPR is but no official thread so far.


    ----------------

    What do you think?

    - Craig
    Brilliant writeup. I think the changes listed above would be great.
  9. #4129  
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Hello Preware Team!

    As you know, I have been working for quite some time on the Getting Started: Preware. Thank you all for your help!
    No, thank *you* for everything you are doing to lead the development of user-friendly instructions for Preware.

    I have gone back through the posts from people having problems with Preware and I think that there are a couple of things that seem fairly straight forward that might help.

    A quote in the WebOS Internals presentation really sums it up:

    "...there's about a 5% penetration of users using tools like Preware versus a rate of about 10% for jailbroken iPhones."

    If 10% of iPhone are jailbroken, 20% of Pre's and Pixi's at this point should be using Preware. We are more nerdy, not less.

    Currently the Homebrew Gallery shows Filecoaster with 180,704 downloads versus Preware with 21,218 downloads. And Filecoaster cannot do patches or themes, etc.

    So maybe 20% of users do want to be able to download directly to their Pre's and Pixi's.

    Before I publish the article, I think that there are some changes that could make Preware be easier for a new user. Most do not directly involve Preware.
    They are all great, and I will respond to each one inline below.


    Luna Manager
    Patches require a Luna Restart so Luna Restarts have to be a simple part of the process. I need to include Luna Manager in the Getting Started: Preware guide but there is no Homebrew Gallery listing for Luna Manger or a Luna Manager thread let alone a stickie.

    Request 1: Create and stickie a thread for Luna Manager. State what a Scan, Luna Restart, and Java Restart are. Hours needed: 1/2.

    Request 2: Put Luna Manager in the Homebrew Gallery. Hours needed: 1/2?
    Agreed. I'll ask Oil to do these, since he is the author of Luna Manager.


    Preware Installer
    The thread for Preware Installer is so important that it should also be a stickie but there is no Preware Installer thread.

    The Preware Installer assumes that you have already installed five programs.
    Unless you are a webOS developer, you will not already have the other software installed and the Preware Installer will give you few clues as to why it keeps failing.

    Request 3: Set up a Preware Installer thread in the WebOS Internals forum to allow users to get help and to give you feedback. Hours needed: 0.

    Request 4: Please try Preware Installer as a typical new user would with nothing but Windows installed on a PC. See what they are going through. Hours needed: 1? Hours needed to create a full instruction set: 50.
    I think that now we have your intructions, we should have your instructions listed in both those places, until the point in the future where the Preware Installer is as well documented (it's clearly not at the moment).


    Preware Homebrew Gallery Entry
    The Preware Homebrew Gallery Entry has the new user download the Preware Installer. One extra hurdle for the new user is that it downloads a September webOSDoctor.jar file.

    Request 5: Add a note at the beginning of the Preware Homebrew description to use the Getting Started: Preware guide. Hours needed: 0.

    Request 6: Replace the current installation instructions in the Preware thread opening post with this link: Getting Started: Preware Installation. Hours needed: 0.
    I'll do the first, and will ask Oil to do the second.


    Package Manager Service
    Preware can detect when the Package Service Manager is not installed. If PMS is not installed, why doesn't Preware just install PMS and then tell the user to restart Preware?
    For Preware to be able to install anything (especially the Package Manager Service, which needs to run a post-installation script for it to be installed properly), it needs to use the Package Manager Service. Chicken and egg. Let alone the security impact of a normal webOS application (Preware) being able to install a custom service (Package Manager Service) - enabling that in general enables privilege escalation paths.


    Now you have the real solution for the Homebrew Gallery problem above. The real Preware ipk could be the file downloaded right out of the Homebrew Gallery.
    Simply not possible, sorry.


    You could even take this a step farther. If Preware checked for updated Preware and PMS ipk's each time Preware is started, you could insure that users are up to date. If they are not up to date, just pop-up:
    ----------------------------
    A Preware update is available.
    Would you like to download it now?
    . . -----. . . .----
    . | Yes |. . | No |
    . . -----. . . .----

    ----------------------------

    Look back at how many frustrated posts this would save with replies that invariably are basically:
    "Are you sure you installed Package Manager Service?"
    "What version of Package Manager Service do you have?"
    "What version of Preware do you have?"
    "Did you install Package Manager Service first?"

    If Preware is not capable of automatically installing the PMS ipk if needed, could it at least notify the user that PMS needs to be installed?

    Request 7: Create a thread for Package Manager Service
    We could do that, but we've been trying to keep it as invisible as possible. If WebOS Quick Install handled package dependencies, people would never even need to worry about finding and installing a Package Manager Service - they would just install Preware.


    Request 8: If the Package Service Manger check finds no PMS on startup, give a "Package Service Manager Not Found" pop-up message. Hours needed: 1?
    We can certainly do this.


    Request 8: Install PMS automatically if needed. Hours needed: No idea if Preware is capable.
    Not possible, unfortunately. The best we can do is link to the instructions in the error message.


    Patches without Threads
    Many patches do not have threads. If we want to offer open source patches, we need open communications with users. That means threads for each one somewhere.

    Worse, for the first time, patches have been posted that could actually cause harm. There were no threads to reference so users are trying to make their own. Some of these patches are now called Obsolete but are still in the feeds.

    Why isn't a thread required for each patch? It's not safe or fair to not allow users a thread somewhere to ask questions or get help.
    So do we get the patch author to create the thread *before* submitting the patch, or does the burden fall on the patch packagers to create threads for patches that they are not the author of?

    I do agree that the best scenario is where each author creates a thread, and uses that thread for support of that patch.


    Patches
    Some percentage of patch problems are due to the user not doing a restart after installing or removing a patch. Many issue posts say "The patch will not install..." or "I can't remove a patch..."

    The first response back is always, "Did you do a Luna restart?" For each user posting a problem are there 10 who don't post?

    The simplest thing I can think of would be a simple pop-up when you exit either the "Available Patches" or Installed Packages→Patch modules in Preware. I think it only needs two buttons, "Restart" and "Continue" with a simple dialog:

    --------------------------------------
    A Restart May Be Required
    A restart is required if you have installed
    or removed a patch.
    . Restart - closes all apps and restarts
    . Continue - do not restart

    . .---------. . . .-----------
    . | Restart |. . | Continue |
    . .---------. . . .-----------
    --------------------------------------

    You already do a restart after installing Eric's Virtual Keyboard so this is just a retread on that code. Can you think of a downside to offering a restart?

    I think that this alone might address hundreds of issues in the past weeks. What do you think? Is the first version as easy as I think?
    This is definitely something we've been wanting to do. It's just a matter of resourcing for this one. If anyone wants to send us modifications to the Preware source code that implements this, we will happily accept them.


    Patch Warning
    Is there a reason that the user get the patch script warning every time they install a patch? Could Preware make the warning the first time the patch or at worst once per session? Does repeating a message actually reduce the chance that a user will read it?
    We need to move towards signed packages before we can do this. The warning is there so that a rogue webos application cannot ask the package manager service to install a rogue script without the user getting a notification. It's very difficult to make this more convenient (before we go to signed packages) without breaking the security model.


    Emergency Patch Recovery
    Could EPR automatically check to see if the current theme is the Palm default and if it is not give a pop-up that the theme must be reset back to the Palm default? Better yet, could it just say that it needs to first change the theme back to the original and do it for you?
    Yep, that's a good idea.


    Also, please put a link to EPR back under Patches, maybe in a new area Patch Tools. People need to be able to find EPR under patches.
    Yes, this is a common request. The thing is that it is not actually a patch, but I do see where this request is coming from.


    Step 9: Start a thread in the WebOS Internals forum for Emergency Patch Recovery. There are multiply threads asking what EPR is but no official thread so far.
    I'll ask Eric to do this.


    ----------------

    What do you think?
    I think they are all great suggestions, and we will implement all the ones that we can.


    - Craig
    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  10. navinag's Avatar
    Posts
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    489 Global Posts
    #4130  
    I cant seem to manually enter a feed information on Preware. I have the latest versions. I remember the preYourMind feed being removed a few updates ago.

    Where does the following live :

    "fceux, direct frame buffer, simple directmedia layer"

    I believe these were on PreYourMind...but I could be wrong?


    So how to I obtain these packages?
  11.    #4131  
    Now that your thoughts are in a proper place for discussion, and I have some time at work, I will attempt to comment on the things I have knowledge about / am responsible for.

    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Currently the Homebrew Gallery shows Filecoaster with 180,704 downloads versus Preware with 21,218 downloads. And Filecoaster cannot do patches or themes, etc.
    This is an apples to oranges comparison. Precentrals gallery is the only place to download filecoaster and updates to it. Every single download of it for any reason is counted in one singular place, precentrals gallery.

    The count there for preware is only people who find that page through the web and click the download link for the zip (which is outdated). All the other downloads, through get.preware.org, through webos quick install using the webos-internals feed, updates in preware through the webos-internals feed, are all not counted by precentrals gallery. And all the uncounted methods are the ones we regularly tell people to use.

    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Request 1: Create and stickie a thread for Luna Manager. State what a Scan, Luna Restart, and Java Restart are. Hours needed: 1/2.
    All the information you are looking for is already somewhere you can link to: Application:Luna Manager - WebOS Internals. The wiki is a much better place for such information as anyone can add to it or correct it. Then rwhitby or I don't have to take time updating a singular threads first post that only we have the power to change, leaving us open for more development and less documentation.

    However, since that data is pretty static, I can create a thread for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Request 2: Put Luna Manager in the Homebrew Gallery. Hours needed: 1/2?
    Luna manager is already in the webos-internals feed, which is accessible by everything that can install it and all its requirements. Putting it in precentrals homebrew gallery more than doubles the work I would have to do to push an update. And it would have to be labeled as "rooting required" and "not available via repository" so filecoaster doesn't try to download it, limiting its usefulness to "a place to download the .ipk file from your browser".

    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Request 6: Replace the current installation instructions in the Preware thread opening post with this link: Getting Started: Preware Installation. Hours needed: 0.
    This I can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Package Manager Service
    Preware can detect when the Package Service Manager is not installed. If PMS is not installed, why doesn't Preware just install PMS and then tell the user to restart Preware?
    Preware uses the package manager to install things. Preware can't install anything without it. While a great idea, it simply isn't possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Now you have the real solution for the Homebrew Gallery problem above. The real Preware ipk could be the file downloaded right out of the Homebrew Gallery.
    The reason we don't have the actual preware .ipk file in precentrals gallery is due to its filecaoster-centric use and the fact its already in the webos-internals feed. While filecoaster can install preware itself, It cannot install the package manager which preware is useless without. If we put the actual ipk in precentrals gallery and someone installs it with filecoaster, it will only cause confusion when it doesn't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    You could even take this a step farther. If Preware checked for updated Preware and PMS ipk's each time Preware is started, you could insure that users are up to date.
    Preware and the package manager are designed to be a simple feed reader and package installer. It doesn't have special code for any packages. It treats them all as equals.

    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    If Preware is not capable of automatically installing the PMS ipk if needed, could it at least notify the user that PMS needs to be installed?
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Request 8: If the Package Service Manger check finds no PMS on startup, give a "Package Service Manager Not Found" pop-up message. Hours needed: 1?
    If preware thinks the package manager is not installed, It already tells the user to install it.

    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Patches
    Some percentage of patch problems are due to the user not doing a restart after installing or removing a patch. Many issue posts say "The patch will not install..." or "I can't remove a patch..."

    The first response back is always, "Did you do a Luna restart?" For each user posting a problem are there 10 who don't post?

    The simplest thing I can think of would be a simple pop-up when you exit either the "Available Patches" or Installed Packages→Patch modules in Preware. I think it only needs two buttons, "Restart" and "Continue" with a simple dialog:

    --------------------------------------
    A Restart May Be Required
    A restart is required if you have installed
    or removed a patch.
    . Restart - closes all apps and restarts
    . Continue - do not restart

    . .---------. . . .-----------
    . | Restart |. . | Continue |
    . .---------. . . .-----------
    --------------------------------------

    You already do a restart after installing Eric's Virtual Keyboard so this is just a retread on that code. Can you think of a downside to offering a restart?

    I think that this alone might address hundreds of issues in the past weeks. What do you think? Is the first version as easy as I think?
    This is certainly something we plan to do. Preware already looks for "flags" in the packages metadata that tells it whats required for each package. Currently it forces the action (luna restart, java restart, etc) We just need to make it optional (the code is actually already there, just the option to turn it on is hidden) and turn on the luna restart flag for all the patch packages.

    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Patch Warning
    Is there a reason that the user get the patch script warning every time they install a patch? Could Preware make the warning the first time the patch or at worst once per session? Does repeating a message actually reduce the chance that a user will read it?
    This is there for security reasons. Removing it would make it possible for a nefarious app to run scripts on your pre without you knowing. There are compromises that must be made for security, this is one of them.


    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    What do you think?
    As rod said, you have some good suggestions. And I will get on top of some of them.

    And I hope I've helped to clear up some of the misunderstandings.
    Last edited by oil; 11/30/2009 at 05:56 PM.
  12. #4132  
    Quote Originally Posted by Conceyted View Post
    Question, I noticed that many people were claiming to have fixed their App Space Limit by installing Preware. Now, I have had Preware for quite a while, and I have never had the App Space Limit problem INSIDE of Preware. However, I am currently unable to install any apps from the Palm app store because my device tells me I have hit the app storage limit.

    Should I attempt to uninstall and reinstall Preware in an effort to fix this? Does Preware even fix the Official app store limit?

    PS: I also read about a Fair Dinkum patch/service that was able to be installed. It appears to have been released before the feature was ported into Preware (at least, I read that). I tried installing Fair Dinkum and it also did not do anything for my Palm App Store app limit.

    Any Ideas?
    I just uninstalled and reinstalled Preware AND Package Manager Service to see if this would fix my App Limit problem in the official App Store. Unfortunately it did not fix it. Any help is appreciated.
  13. mxu030's Avatar
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    #4133  
    I'm thinking of installing Preware and tweaking my phone with some patches and such. I was just wondering, is it easy to delete Preware and restore the phone to factory settings later (if I were selling it or something)?

    Thanks!
  14. #4134  
    i believe you can use webos doctor to wipe it clean.

    and if u leave preware, what would be the harm for your buyer?
  15. #4135  
    yes it is very easy to restore to factory with the webos doctor . very easy . if you can get preware on your phone you can do the doctor
    ĦṔ-Ḷṫ-Ŧḯη
    Here is a direct link to webOS Doc for all carriers
    http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/...octor_Versions
    P.S. if i have helped you and you are thankful please hit the thanks button to the right---->
  16. #4136  
    man, remove preware...bu bu bu but why?? lol

    The Doctor is always in.
  17. #4137  
    Wow, thank you to both Rod and Oil for such thoughtful answers.

    Your team's work just blows me away.

    I will try to consolidate my notes a bit.

    Luna Manager
    It would be fine if your Luna Manager thread opening post just told what the three commands do and had a link to the Wiki. But there needs to be a thread in PreCentral or people will create there own and then they control *your* content. Also, the Wiki is the lookup reference tool not the discussion thread. The discussion thread lets a user post questions and offer suggestions. The Wiki page or the app itself may be updated based upon the thread discussion.

    User discussion threads are not a necessary evil. They are a vital source of information for the user and the developer.

    If possible I would like to keep the Getting Started Preware in one place so that there is only one place to update and just link to that. I want it to be a living document evolving with Preware. Once the article is ready it will move out as a blog article on the main page and the thread op will just be the link to it.


    Package Manager Service
    If you can't include the full PMS with Preware, can you include just a limited version that can only install the real PMS?

    -OR-

    Is there any way to include PMS in the Preware ipk? Really any way at all? That way you control how PMS is installed and know that you have the right version? Preware with the separate PMS is just impossibly hard for some big percentage of users.

    I have tried several times to see what happens when PMS is removed. Preware loads and does not tell you that you that PMS is missing. Try it. If Preware cannot autoinstall PMS, it needs to always tell you when PMS is missing and how to correct the problem. On my Pre I just removed PMS again and started Preware and it again did not tell me that PMS was missing.

    PMS needs its own thread just like every patch and package need their own threads. If you don't set up the thread and the Opening Posts someone else will and you will not like their version. They take control of what should have been your thread.


    Preware in the Homebrew Gallery
    Keeping the Preware ipk out of the Homebrew Gallery listing does nothing to keep users from installing it with Filecoaster. Just paste this link:

    http://ipkg.preware.org/feeds/webos-...0.9.12_all.ipk


    Preware Update Pop-up
    You already have the ability to show that Preware or PMS has an update available. It just can't be that much to add a pop-up on startup asking if you want to update. It is so important. Think of the hundreds of problem posts we have seen over this one issue.


    Patches
    The patch author needs to create the thread *before* submitting the patch. It is just like having to have a Homebrew discussion page before submitting a Homebrew app. But it is even more important for a patch to have a discussion thread than an app. A patch is just a temporary fix until someone can come up with a better patch. A patch has to be in an open source environment. The author needs to answer questions and collect his feedback for improvement.

    I know this sounds harsh but right now you have a list of patch developers who need to either adopt open source or let an open source developer take over the patch. Please do not let any others lock down any more areas of patch development.


    Emergency Patch Recovery
    I understand that EPR is an app but it is a patch tool. If it can only be one place put it under patches because that is where you will need it. I would prefer to see it both places.

    - Craig
  18. #4138  
    there are two app limits. One can be assisted by the fair-dikum routines in preware

    The other can not. If you have too much stuff in your /var folder, you are out of luck

    The problem is, "too much" is "not very much"

    Usually, for most people, the problem can be cleared by deleting your email accounts and re-creating them.

    Otherwise you will need to use the MVAPP app to move apps out of /var into /media/internal
  19. #4139  
    A little of topic, but reading through some of the stuff I think we need to rethink part of it.

    Marketing Preware needs to be done differently. Once thing things above are addressed we need to sit down and think of a way to really market the advantages. Probably go as far as building a website for it finally. Give it a very webOS UI feel showcasing some of the top patches with screenshots.

    Really market Preware as the primary 3rd Party installer.
  20. #4140  
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Package Manager Service
    If you can't include the full PMS with Preware, can you include just a limited version that can only install the real PMS?
    No. They can't The package manager service is a SERVICE that requires that a command be executed in the underlying linux to install. webOS doesn't come with any ability to do that. The whole PURPOSE of the package manager service is to allow stuff to be installed. Preware the app, is just a front end to the package manager service that does the work. No service, no work. Period. Can't be done. No way. No how. Period.

    Not a limited version

    Not a full version

    Not anything. It's not possible. Really. They told you that. Please believe them.

    Is there any way to include PMS in the Preware ipk? Really any way at all? That way you control how PMS is installed and know that you have the right version? Preware with the separate PMS is just impossibly hard for some big percentage of users.
    Let me try to put this in english.

    Palm intentionally prevented the built in installer from running linux commands. The head of security at palm has the willies every time he thinks of the fact that Preware contains a service which runs post-install scripts.

    You can't "turn on" the installation service without running a script to turn it on. The Pre does not have that ability out of the box.

    Webos Quick Install, and the Preware Installer and Preware service HAVE THAT ABILITY. So, you have have to have one of those three. You just do.

    But Preware installer requires that you have already installed the SDK because it needs the novacom drivers.

    Webos Quick Install requires that you download the doctor, because it needs the novacom drivers.

    If you could get permission from palm to distribute the novacom drivers WITHOUT the entire doctor, or the entire SDK, if we could get permission to USE the novacom drivers, then it would be possible to write a STAND ALONE preware installer.

    That would be cool. but we can't do it without palm's permission.

    See the paragraph above about the head of security at palm, and his ulcers around post-install scripts.

    Now, feel free to go ask for permisison to distribute the novacom drivers.

    Good luck.

    Until then, the answer -- really really really THE answer is "NO WE CAN NOT DO THAT. "


    I have tried several times to see what happens when PMS is removed. Preware loads and does not tell you that you that PMS is missing. Try it. If Preware cannot autoinstall PMS, it needs to always tell you when PMS is missing and how to correct the problem. On my Pre I just removed PMS again and started Preware and it again did not tell me that PMS was missing.
    I agree. Big red box. and a pointer to the installation instructions.

    Doable. Let's try to convince Rod and Oil.

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