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  1. mcwtlg's Avatar
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    #841  
    Quote Originally Posted by patty21 View Post
    I got mail from groundspeak. They offer me access to the api, attached was a license agreement (16 pages) and an enrollment form.
    The api is free but there are a lot of conditions and restrictions... they want to earn money by selling additional features to the end user. With a free gc.com account you can request 3 traditional caches per day. I have to advertise these premium features and the live api. Reading the website (like the app currently does) is not permitted at all.
    I will recieve a license key, which is not public and only for this app on this platform. That means I have to close the sources and I can only offer it in the app catalog.

    Now we can decide:
    If we are changing to the new api, we get information in advance, when the api changes and we will not have any problems if the website is changed again. But I dont like the idea to develop a free app and groundspeak gets all the money. We can also develop a paid app (apps using the live api are $10 for bb and ios and $4 for android), but I dont want to take the free code from georgo, change the api and sell it.
    Not great on the choices, eh? Groundspeak has always been in the market to make money and I figured that was what was holding up an app for Palm Pre.

    Well, has anyone asked Georgo to see what he thinks? If he would give up the code, you could make a paid app. While a free app is nice, letting Groundspeak have all the funds from the sale is not cool.

    I am okay either way. I will pay for an app if it is worth it.
    My Palm History
    ---------------
    V -> Vx -> Treo 90 -> Tungsten E -> Centro -> Pre Plus -> Pre 2
  2. Taurec's Avatar
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    #842  
    Hmm. Two Problems with this.

    1) closed source is only possible if you do a PDK App. A Mojo App is only written in JavaScript and not compiled so everyone can grap the API code from it. I don't think they would agree to that.
    2) Georgo does not respond to any communication the last year (mail, pm, gc mail or twitter)

    So I think we need to stay where we are right know but only publish the beta under a new I'D in the real App Catalog.
  3. #843  
    Quote Originally Posted by Taurec View Post
    1) closed source is only possible if you do a PDK App. A Mojo App is only written in JavaScript and not compiled so everyone can grap the API code from it. I don't think they would agree to that.
    While it's true that you can't prevent the user from finding the source code if they want to see it, open/closed source is not about whether people can ultimately find the source code, it's about whether or not they have the "legal right" to modify it and re-distribute it. Ultimately it comes down to the license you choose to distribute your app with. Most of the apps in the catalog are in fact closed source even though we could go in and look at the source if we wanted.

    Even in Preware you'll notice it lists which license is used so you know if you can legally extend the app or not and if you do under what terms you have to abide. So not even all homebrew apps are 'open source'.

    -Jeremy
  4. Taurec's Avatar
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    #844  
    I know that. But Groundspeak only give you the API Access if nobody can view your source. Closed Source isn't the right word for it.
  5. #845  
    Quote Originally Posted by Taurec View Post
    I know that. But Groundspeak only give you the API Access if nobody can view your source. Closed Source isn't the right word for it.
    Where do you see them define it that way? I sincerely doubt their intention is to prevent people from being able to see the source code. They just don't want people to be able to share the session key and create lots of derivative apps using the same key.
  6. Taurec's Avatar
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    #846  
    I spoke with other Devs on other Platforms some days ago and they reported the same. Groundspeak wants to make sure that a normal User doesn't get access to the API Code. That way the want to make sure that none not authorised Apps can use the API just as you said.
  7. #847  
    Then you can create a "service" that does the API calls and let the app interact with that service. That way the part of the code that deals with the API is hidden and the app itself can remain Javascript/Mojo.

    This is how the Internalz File Manager works.

    -Jeremy
  8. Taurec's Avatar
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    #848  
    But with tools like Internalz you can also view Service Sourcecode.

    As you can see here:
    Attached Images Attached Images
  9. pjcruiser's Avatar
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    #849  
    Anyone else not able to log-in to the app? It shows my credentials are incorrect. Even though they are not. Just wondered if anyone else was experiencing this issue.
    Thanks
  10. #850  
    Quote Originally Posted by Taurec View Post
    But with tools like Internalz you can also view Service Sourcecode.

    As you can see here:
    No, the service can be written in C and compiled just like a PDK app.
  11. Taurec's Avatar
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    #851  
    CAN is the right word here You don't have to. I don't know if patty can code this. I suggest we wait on his answer.
  12. #852  
    Aside from the issue of keeping the source closed and reusing Georgo's code without permission I'm not sure if I am clear on the choices here.

    If we have a free app, Groundspeak want to limit the end user to 3 geocaches a day unless we pay for a premium account. Does that mean we can't browse to find one we want to do like we can on the web site? If so it would defeat the main purpose for me.

    If we have a paid app does that remove that restriction? If so, what it is in it for Groundspeak? Do they get a portion of the app fees? I would be happy with that but not paying for premium membership. I used to do that when I did hundreds of caches a year and actively maintained my own but these days it's just a few times a year when on holiday so not worth any monthly or quarterly fees but I would not mind a one off app fee.

    BTW, I'm off on holiday this weekend and just downloaded the latest beta so we can look for a couple of caches while we are away. Thanks a million Patty, I would hate to have to rely on my daughter's Android for geocaching!
  13. Taurec's Avatar
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    #853  
    You don't need Georgos permission. He release this App with a license that allows anyone to use the code for own stuff.
  14. #854  
    Hasn't the original code distributed under GPL license? Anyway, I know that Spaz is Open Source and the source is freely available. The API key however isn't available in the public source repository. I don't think, that enabling developer mode on our webOS devices to access the app folder breaks Groundspeak's terms of use. For normal users the API key isn't accessable.
    I don't mind paying some small amount of money for a reliable Geocaching app. Especially if I can connect it with my MapTool Pro for checking caches, seeing them on the map and navigate through them.

    Does 3 caches stand for logging 3 caches per day? That's not a big deal for me, I'm more interested in discovering, not in logging my archivements.
  15. #855  
    Quote Originally Posted by MetaView View Post
    ... That's not a big deal for me, I'm more interested in discovering, not in logging my archivements.
    +1


    Is there a chance to fix it temporarily? It seems that cgeo finds a solution.(nightly)
    www facebook.com/android.geocaching - last comment from cgeo
    Last edited by t0mte; 10/21/2011 at 05:17 AM.
  16. mcwtlg's Avatar
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    #856  
    Quote Originally Posted by t0mte View Post
    +1


    Is there a chance to fix it temporarily? It seems that cgeo finds a solution.(nightly)
    www facebook.com/android.geocaching - last comment from cgeo
    However viewing previous logs is important as some cache owners as slow to archive caches that are missing and if I see a string of DNF's from good cachers, I tend to ignore the cache. If I cannot see logs, then that hamstrings me when I cache.

    As for the free app versus the paid app, if a free app will only allow a non-premium cacher 3 caches or three queries (not sure which), why is that a bad thing? You can't do any real queries with a free account online and have to manually load the .loc files ( you do not even get gpx files with the free account) into your GPS. I think a "free" app with this limitation is not an issue, but that is just my opinion...I am a premium member and have been for 3-4 years. A free app would suit me just fine.

    I really don't see how this is any different from any other site that has free and premium accounts and has apps for mobile phones that are limited unless you own a premium account.

    Again, just my opinion.
    My Palm History
    ---------------
    V -> Vx -> Treo 90 -> Tungsten E -> Centro -> Pre Plus -> Pre 2
  17. #857  
    To clearify everything a bit:

    What is restricted by groundspeak with the API?
    There are 2 types of request, which are restrected for regular members of gc.com:
    1. If you perform a cache search (like caches around coordinates, found/hidden by username, ...), only traditionals are returned. You can search as often as you want and you get GC-Code,Type, Size, D/T, Name, Owner.
    2. If you need coordinates, description or logs, you need to request the cache detail by GC-Code. The type is not restricted (you may request i.e. multis if you have the gc-code) but you are limited to 3 such requests per day.
    If you are premium-member, (1) returns all types and (2) is raised to 6000 requests per day.

    Groundspeak wants a win-win-situation. They can sell premium memberships and I can sell an reliable app. For me, there is no fee to groundspeak, I can release the app for free or sell it for any price I want and keep the money (except fees for the app catalog).

    I'm not a premium member @ gc.com, because there is no reason for me. The current app works well for me, I can see all caches in the cachelist and request full cache detail as often I want. GPX-Downloads and Pocket querys are not required on modern devices with direct internet access. There are only a few premium-only caches I can't find, but I don't care about.

    Another problem is, that I would get a license key for API access. The app uses this key to log in into the API. If groundspeak suddenly doesnt like the app, they can revoke the key on their servers and the app will become nearly useless.

    Lets have a look to android: There is c:geo, which is reading the website. And there are is the official gc app and neongeo, which are using the API. When I'm asking friends, which app they use for geocaching, I hear (nearly) always c:geo.

    I made a decision: I will not use the API. I will spend my time in coding new features instead of changing the program to adress the API and advertise premium features for groundspeak. I will release the app for free under a new name in the app catalog. (Can somebody help me to design a new logo? I have some ideas, but I'm a coder and not a gfx designer.)

    If somebody wants to use the API and release it as a paid app, feel free to contact me, I will send you the current source.
  18. Taurec's Avatar
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    #858  
    Great desission. If you give me your GC Nickname I would love to gjve you a Gift Premium Membership for a year!
  19. #859  
    I've submitted a new app to the app catalog. I'll notify you, when its published.

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