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  1. av1atrx's Avatar
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       #1  
    Is anybody working on a pilot logbook app? I would love to see this come available, as I miss having the ability to calculate rest requirements, etc.

    I dowloaded Classic so I could run APDL but can't get it to work properly. I'd rather just have a webOs program as this point.
  2. ray1b's Avatar
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    #2  
  3. av1atrx's Avatar
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       #3  
    I actually have the FlightBriefer program and didn't even realize the logbook stuff was in there. Upon inspection, though, it appears it is not professional-pilot friendly. I don't have a Hobbs meter, lol.

    Any programs in development for professional pilots?
  4. nethan's Avatar
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    #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by av1atrx View Post
    Is anybody working on a pilot logbook app? I would love to see this come available, as I miss having the ability to calculate rest requirements, etc.

    I dowloaded Classic so I could run APDL but can't get it to work properly. I'd rather just have a webOs program as this point.
    I'm running APDL with Classic. It works just fine. Search the logbookpro site forums for info on how to sync trips in and out. I would love to see APDL ported over to WebOS, but somehow I don't think that is going to happen.
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by nethan View Post
    I'm running APDL with Classic. It works just fine. Search the logbookpro site forums for info on how to sync trips in and out. I would love to see APDL ported over to WebOS, but somehow I don't think that is going to happen.
    Same here...but just found out tonight that with WebOS 2.0 Classic will no longer work. So we will lose APDL once again. I hope that NC decided to make a webos version of APDL, but it seems like he is putting anything new APDL-wise on the back burner and seems like he is not in the mood to listen to his customers regarding updating APDL.
  6. TimBoch's Avatar
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    #6  
    If I can help you get APDL working in classic feel free to PM me or give me a call.
  7. #7  
    Yeah, APDL on Classic works fine... but that's apparently going away soon.

    NC is about worthless these days when it comes to the mobile side of logbook mgmt. Their solution, last I heard, was some sort of web-based portal that you could then sync to Logbook Pro... but, A) not all of us are running (or want to run) Logbook Pro, and B) we don't always have mobile internet access (in flight, internationally etc.).

    I think my interim solution will be to start watching eBay for a cheap Treo 90 to keep in the flight case. Awesome... thought I was done with that 6 years ago. I love technological advances! ;-)
  8. TimBoch's Avatar
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    #8  
    I've been using APDL for over 10 years. It is amazing how funtionally simple the program Paul Auman made back then. I've had it on at least 8 different Palm devices, but was happy when I didn't have to carry both a palm and a phone. I think I will stay with 1.4.5. I wish I knew how to program so I could make my own.
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by TimBoch View Post
    I've been using APDL for over 10 years. It is amazing how funtionally simple the program Paul Auman made back then. I've had it on at least 8 different Palm devices, but was happy when I didn't have to carry both a palm and a phone. I think I will stay with 1.4.5. I wish I knew how to program so I could make my own.
    Well, I guess you nailed the main problem here.

    Most pilots aren't programmers, and most programmers aren't pilots; and if, then hobby-pilots at best. That is also most likely the reason why the Homebrew Flightlog-App is mostly geared towards those hobby-pilots.


    Anyway, my point is simply this: Why don't you simply contact the developer of the Flightlog-App and ask him (or her, ya never know ), whether he has time to further develop the app to make it more useful to professional pilots?

    I mean, you have the expertise to know what the program should be able to do, and they have the expertise of how to make the program do just that.

    In the end, it's all just a matter of getting knowledge from point A to point B, and giving B enough incentive to use that knowledge. And if history has proven one thing to us, then that there are lots of ways to provide incentive... ^__^
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jappus View Post
    Anyway, my point is simply this: Why don't you simply contact the developer of the Flightlog-App and ask him (or her, ya never know ), whether he has time to further develop the app to make it more useful to professional pilots?

    I mean, you have the expertise to know what the program should be able to do, and they have the expertise of how to make the program do just that.

    In the end, it's all just a matter of getting knowledge from point A to point B, and giving B enough incentive to use that knowledge. And if history has proven one thing to us, then that there are lots of ways to provide incentive... ^__^
    Part of the problem is that MOST people (though not me lol) use the APDL app we're talking about to enter logbook information during our flight days, then sync that data to a desktop program called Logbook Pro, which then generates detailed printable reports, calculates duty time/flight time limitations, etc. (I use a homebrew sort of solution for this on my computer 'cause after some massive customer support issues, I refuse to ever buy Logbook Pro from those devs.)

    Now, the files that APDL creates for use in Logbook Pro are standard .pdb file types, but how proprietary might the data formatting be? If another dev creates a mobile app to export data in this .pdb format, in a way that mirrors the APDL/Logbook Pro data, is that legal?

    Conversely, creating a new desktop app to go along with the new mobile app is problematic, because people don't want to switch. It's potentially a big deal to re-enter all your old flight time in a new logbook program. Ideally, you could export it all out of Logbook Pro and make an import utility in the new program that could use the export... but knowing these NC guys, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they crippled their export function as soon as they heard about this. These guys (this ONE guy, really) have had a lock on this service for a long time... they don't play nice with others.
  11. TimBoch's Avatar
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    #11  
    I have sent a PM to the developer of the Flight Briefer program. He has made some very helpful aviation programs and I hope we could work with him to further develop a "redbook" styled flight time/duty time, styled log. Back in the early days of APDL, there were importer programs that could import from text and pdf and export into CSV for spreadsheet or logbooks. It would be great to see something like this evolve into the WebOS format.
    Tim Boche

    Palm IIIe, IIIx, IIIxe, IIIc, ClieT615, ClieTJ25, ClieTJ37(2), Treo600, Treo650, Centro(AT&T & Verizon),
    Pre Plus(6 replacements), TouchPads(1-16gb,2-32gb), Pre2 (and a spare)
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by Stearmandriver View Post
    Now, the files that APDL creates for use in Logbook Pro are standard .pdb file types, but how proprietary might the data formatting be? If another dev creates a mobile app to export data in this .pdb format, in a way that mirrors the APDL/Logbook Pro data, is that legal?
    Depends where you live, and how you do it.

    For example, in Germany, where I hail from, reverse-engineering is fully allowed. If I can learn how a format works, without stealing any internal documentation, it's all fair game. Decoding a format can not be trademarked in any way. The only exception are copy protection measures, and even then, creating the tools is absolutely legal. The only thing that carries a risk of getting convicted for something is if you use these tools to circumvent a copy protection system. But even THEN, the law only applies if it's a working copy protection system, which means it must be difficult for the average user to circumvent.

    For example, the CSS protection scheme on DVDs is fully fair game, because the average person can circumvent it with one click.

    The same applies for ALL protection systems that only offer security by obscurity -- which means the mere details of the storage-format used by a program can not be seen as a copy protection.

    But that's Germany. In the US, as far as I know, the law changes from state to state. Some forbid reverse-engineering completely, some only allow so called "clean-room" approaches, and some allow most approaches.


    You see, that's one of the reasons why Apple did not go to court against Palm when they masqueraded the Pre as an iPod/iPhone. In court, they most likely wouldn't have a chance, so instead they only filed a complaint with the USB consortium.


    But I'm not a lawyer, not even a German one.

    Ideally, you could export it all out of Logbook Pro and make an import utility in the new program that could use the export... but knowing these NC guys, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they crippled their export function as soon as they heard about this. These guys (this ONE guy, really) have had a lock on this service for a long time... they don't play nice with others.
    If it's just one guy, I doubt that the storage format is very complicated. A simple known-plaintext attack should yield you a lot of pointers to how the app stores its data. I think in the worst case, he'll save the records in a compressed format, so you'd have to figure out the compression. But given how hard it is to get compression right, he'll most likely have used some standard algorithm like Deflate (of gzip/ZLib/ZIP fame).

    As for the synchronisation format; if you can read the data from the app's source data, the easiest way will most likely be to write a new sync-app, and ditch the old one.

    That way, all he could say is that you've decoded the storage format, and as I said, I doubt that he could do much about it. After all, you don't grant somebody access to an app he didn't pay for, and since nobody uses the app, only the junk it leaves on disk, he most likely won't be able to touch you in any way.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by Stearmandriver View Post
    ...
    Now, the files that APDL creates for use in Logbook Pro are standard .pdb file types
    There are a number of .pdb to .csv converters available on the internet for download, so access to your old data should not be a problem.

    EDIT: Might not be so easy. I tried a couple on some old .pdb files with limited success.
    Last edited by johncc; 11/02/2010 at 11:10 PM.
  14. #14  
    This one might be worth looking at, if for no other reason than they offer to convert your current data to a csv file. No webOS version yet though.

    http://www.dauntless-soft.com/products/safelog/

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