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  1.    #1  
    The Next Meeting will take place at 1730 GMT / UTC on Sunday the 15th October 2017.

    1000 PDT (West Coast of North America)
    1200 CDT (Chicago)
    1300 EDT (Washington / New York)
    1800 BST (UK)
    1900 CEST (Amsterdam / Berlin)
    2000 MSK (Moscow)
    You can check your local time here: https://www.timeanddate.com/time/map/

    The venue will be the #webOS channel on the Freenode IRC network. Preparations for this meeting were discussed on the thread, Proposals for a webOS User Group and it includes some basic notes on using IRC on webOS or a PC.

    The meeting could be as short as an hour or as long as two, depending on how many attend & how much is said. The log will be linked or posted on this thread for those who don't attend and for reference.

    THE LATEST AGENDA IS IN POST 12.

    ==================================
    Original post:

    AGENDA (with estimated timings)
    1. Introductions (5mins).
      Those present will introduce themselves. You may wish to compose a short paragraph about yourself in advance. If you have any skills (not necessarily coding) that may be useful to the group, you could include them.
    2. Short Statement on the state of Legacy webOS. It's in the next post below so it can be read in advance.
    3. The aims and organisation of a webOS user group. (15mins). Bring your thoughts. Suggestions are in post 3 below.
    4. An updated guide to setting up webOS devices. (10mins) A documentation project.
    5. The top five problems that the community might be able to fix. (i.e. nothing involving service providers with proprietary APIs). Bring your list and we'll combine them all. (15mins)
    6. What can we do to find / improve documentation of Mojo / Enyo? (10mins)
    7. Can we fix & use the webOS internals wiki for technical information? (5mins)
    8. Can we fix the webOS internals patch feed or manage it manually? (5mins)
    9. Possible election of officers. Possible officers: Chair / Secretary (can probably be the same person if the group is small), System Officer, Apps Officer, Hardware Officer, LuneOS Officer. (10mins)
    10. Date of next meeting.

    The guess then is 80 minutes. If we are 'Pre'-prepared and few in number, we may rattle through it, deciding if an item is a good idea or not, how we might begin, then agreeing the next meeting. Or we could end up having a huge discussion. I will attempt to keep us to time if the latter.
    Last edited by Preemptive; 09/17/2017 at 10:47 PM.
    gazaud and MartinH@webos like this.
  2.    #2  
    Here is the short statement for context (and reading before we start).

    Feel free to offer clarifications or corrections in advance if you see a need for them.

    --------------------------------------------
    LG Electronics is responsible for their own TV version of webOS. Their Silicon Valley Lab is developing the Enyo app frame work and it's successor, Enact. As far as I am aware, LG (and maybe HP still?) are responsible for OpenwebOS, but I don't think much has been done with it since the initial release.* It is based on webOS v3. Not all of Legacy is open-source, so not all the code (especially hardware drivers) was released. I think what was released would run on a standard Linux kernel on a PC, but not on any mobile hardware. Early attempts to port it floundered on graphic driver problems. As a result, webOS Ports rewrote the system manager (luna-sys), creating a version that would work with an Android kernel & drivers (luna-next). This system is now called LuneOS.

    Currently, the only 'usable'** and mobile version of webOS is legacy and since the HP server shutdown of 2015, there is no official support for the system. It seems webOS Internals is at least dormant, with it's volunteers either moving on or focusing on LuneOS - webOS Ports seem to have control of it's assets (wiki & repository). Unofficial support for legacy webOS is supplied on an ad hoc basis by the user community based around webOS Nation and possibly a couple of other (non-English) sites.

    The utility of the aging system is affected by popular services using proprietary APIs (or closing existing open ones) or by a lack of volunteers willing to update existing apps or write new ones where this is possible. The OS is not regularly updated and the hardware could soon be outmoded and even made obsolete by new technology (e.g. LTE, 5G).

    It may be possible to give the legacy system a massive update for 2017, but in reality, there's little reason for anyone to put in so much effort and time for such a small group of users and if there are such people, they should be working on LuneOS. The best we can hope for are incremental fixes and patches and the occasional bit of luck we seem to have had so far when show-stopping bugs get tackled.

    Regular users are likely in the low hundreds. The suggestion is that a webOS user group could help add a little focus to existing efforts to support the use of legacy. Though Legacy webOS will almost certainly 'die' eventually, preserving, maintaining and even updating it could also maintain a potential user base for LuneOS, when it is fully ready for use.

    --------------------------------------------
    * See this post. The site is down or hacked.
    ** We can argue about the state of LuneOS and compare it to the decline of webOS, but it is not even beta software yet and no one is saying it's a 'daily driver'. Due to the uncertainty over app frameworks and of course prioritising the system itself, the few available apps are not all finished or up to date.
  3.    #3  
    From the previous thread, here are suggestions for aims (Agenda item 3).

    Feel free to share your own ideas here or on IRC tomorrow, when we will decide what works best.

    Proposed 'charter' or list of aims:
    • To be a group for users of Palm / HP webOS (legacy) & LuneOS.
    • To provide a point of focus for addressing webOS issues & acting upon them.
    • To ensure clear information is available to users about operating, maintaining, modifying and programming webOS systems. This to be done by collating, linking or creating documentation.
    • To represent user's interests to other organisations involved with webOS.
  4.    #4  
    I may as well throw in some ideas for the top five issues (item 5)
    1. Legacy webOS needs a modern browser.
    2. It takes some effort to set up a webOS device in 2017. It doesn't work out of the box if it's in a 'fresh' state.
    3. The issues with the webOS Internals patch portal and the webOS Nation app gallery are important. Both are submission issues rather than access I think.
    4. Official support and documentation is gone. Unofficial support is ad hoc & scattered across forums. (That the best support is on this forum is positve). Even unofficial support is fading or broken. e.g. WebOS101
    5. For the average user, manual backup is possible, but a streamlined or automated system is long gone. If a solution is possible, enabling data migration to LuneOS would be a handy feature that could encourage future adoption.
    Last edited by Preemptive; 08/20/2017 at 09:42 AM.
    gazaud likes this.
  5.    #5  
    The meeting went very well.

    **PLEASE NOTE: NOTHING HERE SHOULD BE TAKEN AS A PROMISE AND NO TIME LINES WILL BE MADE PUBLIC. ANY PROGRESS WILL BE HELPED BY MORE PEOPLE OFFERING TO HELP.**
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Summary of the inaugural meeting of the Legacy webOS user group. 20th August 2017. 1700 GMT.
    1. Introductions
      There were 10 Attendees.
    2. Short Statement on the state of Legacy webOS. (see post 2 of this thread)
      The statement was accepted.
    3. The aims and organisation of a webOS user group. (see post 3)
      The aims list was provisionally accepted. No rules of organisation have been formulated yet (this would just be simple stuff about organising meetings & appointment of people to official posts).
    4. An updated guide to setting up webOS devices.
      pivotCE Guide: Parked (Preemptive) No one seemed interested in doing this, but I will try to do it if I get time. Help from forum members will be gratefully received. Back up methods could be documented, but the rest of the guide can wait as there may be a way to simplify installation...
    5. The top five problems that the community might be able to fix.
      1. Legacy webOS needs a modern browser. - There were two proposals: A new Browser & a patch for the existing browser.
      2. It takes some effort to set up a webOS device in 2017. It doesn't work out of the box if it's in a 'fresh' state. - The proposal was the meta doctor method to include current fixes, preware and no activation process.
      3. The issues with the webOS Internals patch portal and the webOS Nation app gallery are important. Both are submission issues rather than access I think. - To be investigated.
      4. Official support and documentation is gone. Unofficial support is ad hoc & scattered across forums. (That the best support is on this forum is positve). Even unofficial support is fading or broken. e.g. WebOS101. - Not much here.
      5. For the average user, manual backup is possible, but a streamlined or automated system is long gone. If a solution is possible, enabling data migration to LuneOS would be a handy feature that could encourage future adoption. - Not much here.
      6. Additional discussions were around the future of the app stores
      7. The broken location service was raised and fixes were proposed.
    6. What can we do to find / improve documentation of Mojo / Enyo?
      Some sources were offered. Index of /webos/documentation
    7. Can we fix & use the webOS internals wiki for technical information?
      A group was formed to investigate and fix this. There was also an offer of new content to follow.
    8. Can we fix the webOS internals patch feed or manage it manually?
      To be investigated.
    9. Possible election of officers. Possible officers: Chair / Secretary (can probably be the same person if the group is small), System Officer, Apps Officer, Hardware Officer, LuneOS Officer.
      Left until a later date. The suggestion was for area contacts. This could possibly be project leads or areas of expertise.
    10. Date of next meeting.
      17th September 2017, 1700 GMT / UTC Agenda.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    A LIST OF USER GROUP PROJECTS

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Loose ends:
    • App stores - for future discussion
    • webOS Nation App gallery submission and access - we can only ask the admins of WN
    • Device back up - no discussion, but a guide could show how to do it manually. (back up thread link in the signature line of this post)
    • git.webos-internals.org has gone for a long time, so maybe some sources of preware apps are lost.. would be nice to recover it too
    • How to switch off synergybot messages that clutter the client time line

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    If you did not attend the meeting, but are interested in helping, post below. If anyone is discussing one of the projects on a thread, I can't link the headings to it if you want.

    I've attached an edited log to this post (The discussion grouped into topics). For some reason, I can't upload text, so I zipped it. See the next post for the link to the full log.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Preemptive; 09/17/2017 at 10:34 PM.
  6. #6  
    Hey Preemptive,
    Thanks again for pulling that together!

    I think the log link you posted won't have any content in a few hours, and at that point I expect the archived log to be: http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs...s.20170821.txt

    -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
  7. #7  
    Meeting time was 3am for me, so could not attend. FYI: I don't use any webOS devices today.

    Let me know if you need anything from WebOS Internals sites/resources/people and I'll see what I can organise.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    Meeting time was 3am for me, so could not attend. FYI: I don't use any webOS devices today.

    Let me know if you need anything from WebOS Internals sites/resources/people and I'll see what I can organise.

    -- Rod
    Holy hell. This is like spotting webOS Jesus!
    IIIxe | z22 | Pre 3 | Bold 9900 | Q10 | Nexus 4
    Rnp and TJs11thPre like this.
  9. #9  
    I am not techy at all, English is not my native language, but I would like to support the initiative. Thanks and congratulation to all.
  10.    #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    Meeting time was 3am for me, so could not attend. FYI: I don't use any webOS devices today.

    Let me know if you need anything from WebOS Internals sites/resources/people and I'll see what I can organise.

    -- Rod
    Thanks very much. Unfortunately, the time was set to be most convenient to those who posted on the threads - Early in western U.S. to late in central Europe. Aside from yourself, I know there are other webOS enthusiasts in Asia and the pacific region. One thing we could try is a 'double' meeting: retaining the current time, we could have a second meeting (probably before) for eastern Europe, Asia and Australasia. We'd likely need another chair person for this, so volunteers are welcome to post here.

    I'd guess that something around 0400 GMT would work: 0800 in central Europe, 1400 in Sydney, 2000 in Alaska.
    Last edited by Preemptive; 08/21/2017 at 07:39 AM.
  11.    #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shuswap View Post
    Holy hell. This is like spotting webOS Jesus!
    Could he be back to save us!?!?!
    Shuswap likes this.
  12.    #12  
    Proposed agenda for the next meeting of September 17th at 1700 GMT / UTC. Please post suggestions for additions or alterations. Please also post if you would like a second meeting timed to suit other time zones.
    1. Attendees & Introductions of new attendees.
    2. Any proposed updates to the aims or rules of the group
    3. Possible selection of officers or area contacts.
    4. Progress reports
      1. New browser for TP only. (nizovn)
      2. Legacy browser patch (Shuswap, Misj)
      3. Updated meta-doctors (Herrie, bbito)
      4. Updated location service (Misj, mazzinia)
      5. Find / improve documentation of mojo / enyo (Misj)
      6. Fix & use the webOS internals wiki for technical information (novaldex, Preemptive, bbito & Shuswap) > Progress Report.
      7. Fix the webos internals patch feed or manage it manually (novaldex, Preemptive) > Progress Report.
      8. webOS Nation App gallery submission and access (Preemptive)
    5. Discussion of other items
      1. Preservation / Restoration of sources of documentation (including original Palm documents, Open WebOS & 3rd party sources such as webOS101).
      2. git.webos-internals.org has gone for a long time, so maybe some sources of preware apps are lost.. would be nice to recover it too (likely solution in post 15).
      3. webOS time service issue (Network Time not keeping clocks accurate)
      4. Device back up options.
      5. App stores discussion.
      6. Should we lobby TCL?
      7. Old domains associated with webOS.
      8. On device Help System.
      9. Default apps: Can we patch the system to give us more default options? (e.g. Qupzilla, LuneTube)
    6. Any other business.
    7. Date of next meeting.
    Last edited by Preemptive; 09/17/2017 at 04:45 PM.
  13. #13  
    Meeting time was 3am for me, so could not attend. FYI: I don't use any webOS devices today.

    Let me know if you need anything from WebOS Internals sites/resources/people and I'll see what I can organise.

    -- Rod

    Rod, good to see you around to support!

    1. We have a few "critical" patches (Google/GMail) for example)we'd like to add to the various patch feeds. The patch portal was taken offline, but we could PRPRPR $the$ $patches$ $to$ $the$ $respective$ $branches$ $on$ $GitHub$. $Question$ $is$ $how$ $these$ $would$ $end$ $up$ $in$ $the$ $feeds$. $I$ $believe$ $this$ $was$ $all$ $automated$ $in$ $the$ $back$-$end$ $previously$ $in$ $the$ $patch$ $portal$ ($at$ $least$ $that$'$s$ $what$ $I$ $recall$ $from$ $when$ $I$ $reviewed$ $the$ $code$ $a$ $while$ $ago$? $If$ $we$ $could$ $get$ $a$ $copy$ $of$ $the$ $script$ $that$ $we$ $could$ $add$ $as$ $a$ $Jenkins$ $job$ $or$ $something$ $that$ $would$ $be$ $great$. $I$'$m$ $in$ $touch$ $with$ $ka6sox$ $too$ ($in$ $general$) $and$ $a$ $bit$ $closer$ $to$ $him$ $timezone$ $wise$ $I$ $guess$ $he$ $might$ $be$ $able$ $to$ $help$ $with$ $this$? $Or$ $you$ $have$ $other$ $people$ $to$ $reach$ $out$ $to$? $Novaldex$ $is$ $looking$ $after$ $a$ $lot$ $of$ $the$ $servers$ $lately$ $so$ $he$ $could$ $help$ $out$ $too$.

    2. With regards to the Internals wiki: A question came up where this runs currently. If I recall correctly this is on the same infrastructure as Ports? A server name would help, since Novaldex wasn't aware it seems ;-)


    -- Sent from my TouchPad using Communities
    Last edited by Herrie; 08/22/2017 at 09:31 AM.
    HP Veer (daily driver), HP Pre 3, HP Touchpad Proper 4G/LTE (Sierra MC7710), HP Touchpad 32GB WiFi, Palm Pre 2
  14.    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by Herrie View Post
    Rod, good to see you around to support!

    1. We have a few "critical" patches (Google/GMail) for example)we'd like to add to the various patch feeds. The patch portal was taken offline, but we could (pull request) the patches to the respective branches on GitHub. Question is how these would end up in the feeds. I believe this was all automated in the back-end previously in the patch portal (at least that's what I recall from when I reviewed the code a while ago? If we could get a copy of the script that we could add as a Jenkins job or something that would be great. I'm in touch with ka6sox too (in general) and a bit closer to him timezone wise I guess he might be able to help with this? Or you have other people to reach out to? Novaldex is looking after a lot of the servers lately so he could help out too.

    2. With regards to the Internals wiki: A question came up where this runs currently. If I recall correctly this is on the same infrastructure as Ports? A server name would help, since Novaldex wasn't aware it seems ;-)


    -- Sent from my TouchPad using Communities
    I'm looking at these projects with novaldex & bbito. Restoring the automated system would of course be the ideal, but I know the decision was taken at the time not to fix the automation and given the current frequency of patching, a manual solution would not be the end of the world. Hopefully fixing the wiki will be fairly straight-forward.

    Can I suggest any discussion goes to this old thread? Is the webosinternals patch portal down? It will keep this thread free for organising meetings.
    Last edited by Preemptive; 08/28/2017 at 09:13 PM.
  15. #15  
    git.webos-internals.org was pretty much all backed up by me to https://github.com/wosigh?tab=repositories
    The required info would need to be imported/migrated to WebOS Internals GitHub official account
    HP Veer (daily driver), HP Pre 3, HP Touchpad Proper 4G/LTE (Sierra MC7710), HP Touchpad 32GB WiFi, Palm Pre 2
  16. #16  
    about the location service, since we are discussing...

    if I found the right file, it's hooking to a remote google server that now doesn't exist anymore. Some other app (different product) was using the same location and developer key. Suspect a generic key issued by google.

    Thing is... now android uses as preferred method to get the geolocation, the play services... you call an api that's included in those, and that's all.
    Yes, you could use the map geolocation api, but my sensation is that "we" used a backdoor of the older location method ( through play services ).

    Lumberjack states a "no such file or directory" on activating location through google, and I guess is a direct result of the remote server not being present.
    if we know which server right now google uses for the play services geolocation, we could try to define its ip with an alias having the old name, and test. ( just an idea )

    And since we are here ....

    there's an ntp daemon running, and it points to ntp0.palmws.com , that obviously doesn't exist anymore. This is the reason the time tends to drift.
    We should replace that with a current working ntp address
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by mazzinia View Post
    about the location service, since we are discussing...

    if I found the right file, it's hooking to a remote google server that now doesn't exist anymore. Some other app (different product) was using the same location and developer key. Suspect a generic key issued by google.

    Thing is... now android uses as preferred method to get the geolocation, the play services... you call an api that's included in those, and that's all.
    Yes, you could use the map geolocation api, but my sensation is that "we" used a backdoor of the older location method ( through play services ).

    Lumberjack states a "no such file or directory" on activating location through google, and I guess is a direct result of the remote server not being present.
    if we know which server right now google uses for the play services geolocation, we could try to define its ip with an alias having the old name, and test. ( just an idea )

    And since we are here ....

    there's an ntp daemon running, and it points to ntp0.palmws.com , that obviously doesn't exist anymore. This is the reason the time tends to drift.
    We should replace that with a current working ntp address
    ntp0.palmws.com is mentioned in /usr/bin/LunaSysService. We could binary patch it if we have a location that's same length or shorter.

    [edit]
    pool.ntp.org might do
    [/edit]
    Last edited by Herrie; 08/22/2017 at 09:47 AM.
    HP Veer (daily driver), HP Pre 3, HP Touchpad Proper 4G/LTE (Sierra MC7710), HP Touchpad 32GB WiFi, Palm Pre 2
  18.    #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by Herrie View Post
    ntp0.palmws.com is mentioned in /usr/bin/LunaSysService. We could binary patch it if we have a location that's same length or shorter.

    [edit]
    pool.ntp.org might do
    [/edit]
    Does the geo location require the time service? I remembered it was an issue and added it to the next agenda... or maybe that's why you mention it. Anyway, here's the thread: Network Time not keeping clocks accurate

    I think there was a geo - service thread. I'll try to find it and link. EDIT: This is the nearest thing I could find: Bing and Google maps location unavailable?

    If anyone is reviving or creating threads for the various projects, let me know and I'll link the agenda to them. Nizovn is off to a flying start! I wasn't expecting things to happen so quickly!
    Last edited by Preemptive; 08/22/2017 at 11:48 AM.
  19. #19  
    cannot we simply define a different npt site in the hosts, adding to it an alias to the old palm one ?
  20.    #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by mazzinia View Post
    cannot we simply define a different npt site in the hosts, adding to it an alias to the old palm one ?
    dkirker suggests this on the thread. But it seems that the author of Clocksync uses a work around method because webOS either lacks a conventional time service or it isn't easily accessed. Perhaps it's just a matter of having root or perhaps the method is unconventional. If we know the old palm address (ntp.palm.com ?), we can easily write a redirect and test. If it fails, then either the time service needs to be activated, the code patched or a replacement system installed. That said, Clocksync works and can be set to regularly check the time, so it's not urgent.

    I'll give the basic solution a try if I have a moment - I already use modified HOST files. I think it can be done on device with Internals Pro.
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