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  1.    #1  
    Putting this up for Alan, who is busy right now.

    The webOS browser is aging but whose fault is it? | pivotCE

    Discuss away!
    Last edited by Preemptive; 06/01/2016 at 09:31 PM.
    hfGermany, Rnp and xandros9 like this.
  2. #2  
    There's not a lot to discuss. That's the reality.

    A few years ago I was involved in the porting of a sw towards internet ( trenty .... ) and when we started to do live tests over a real internet connection, loading of pages was not so stellar ( by that year ).
    There were some obvious complaints.. when I checked, the images / background were BIG and wasting a lot of download band.
    When I pointed out the fact, and asked to trim them ( a full blue single color background jpg was absurdly huge, just myself could trim it down by a 20 to 30 factor ) I was told no no no, that's not a problem...

    Welcome to the reality of web design ( aka wasteful practices , that should make any decent programmer shiver )
  3. #3  
    The way I see it, this is an awful trend that needs to be corrected to whatever extent is possible. I do feel I have to watch what I say at work on this topic, how I say it, and who I say it to, so as not to burn bridges, but I feel it's extremely important to stop making such stupid design decisions.
    hfGermany likes this.
  4. #4  
    you can install the broker luna OS in webos 2.2.4 ?

    -- Sent from my Palm Pre3 using Forums
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshua764 View Post
    you can install the broker luna OS in webos 2.2.4 ?

    -- Sent from my Palm Pre3 using Forums
    if you mean the browser (not broker) nope, it requires a certain amount of newer libraries, so all those would be required too
    joshua764 likes this.
  6.    #6  
    The webOS browser gas always had a problem: The reload issue. There is apparently some kind of 'client-server' model used here that easily breaks. webOS is itself sort of a web browser, so I guess the OS is passing the data for display in a card and this is where the problem arises. That said, the browser is quite nice when it works. This is despite it's low score on any modern HTML test. It should be noted that HTML5 was being developed when webOS was released. The standard wasn't finalised until 2014...

    As we all know, many webOS apps are basically HTML+javascript, using special services to access hardware features. This is one feature of HTML5: Rather than simply displaying content or even being interactive, it can talk to GPS, gyros etc. to enhance the experience or interactivity.

    Someone recently tweeted and interesting post about web apps vs native:
    https://remysharp.com/2016/05/28/state-of-the-gap (doesn't load on my webOS devices, ironically!)

    Alan is talking about the sheer amount of data coming down the pipe. Those who remember the start of the home computer revolution will recall how programmers performed virtual miracles to maximum value from tiny amounts of memory. Now memory is cheap, processors are out performing what used to be known as super-computers and data lines are superfast. Like the gas-guzzling era of American motoring, web designers are sending all these large files because they can. Certainly ad agencies are desperate to fill our screens with dynamic ads and of course, tracking. There is something of a crisis at the moment as ad-blockers are used more and more because they don't just remove annoying ads, but speed up the browsing experience. I know I don't bother looking at the Verge on webOS. On the desktop, with noscript, you can see just how many different services are on any particular page. In a world where we expect everything on the internet to be free, ads are about the only revenue model that seem to work, but everyone's getting fed up with it and some of those ad companies are basically serving malware.

    Here are my tips to improve the experience:
    I'm quite fond of the file from here: Blocking Unwanted Connections with a Hosts File You can sign up for updates. (use Internalz Pro to stick in your /etc folder)

    Add in: https://pivotce.com/2015/06/15/tip-e...-palm-servers/

    There are also ad blockers in Preware: Search for ad block or Max blocker (the former seems most recent, but that was 2012... maybe they can be updated?) I don't know how they work, but might also modify the HOSTS file.

    Now, if anyone can get QT5.6 on webOS, we may be able to use the LuneOS browser...
    Request: An UpToDate Webbrowser APP
    Last edited by Preemptive; 06/03/2016 at 06:12 AM.
    hfGermany likes this.
  7. #7  
    There are actually quite a complex question, and I'm going to hint on several of the answers...in no particular order:

    It is true, that pictures say more than a thousand words (although you may be surprised to hear that so do books). But this is only true if the picture is meaningful and has purpose. The current trend of having between one-third and two-third of the screen covered by a header-image is, in my opinion, simply bad design. The ironic thing is, that - according to the designers that I heard defending this - is, that it's caused by mobile: mobile users, they argue, are used to scrolling through their content, so there is no reason to try and fit all content on a single screen.

    But mobile has created another problem with large and plenty images as well and that is called - in Apple marketing terms - retina. On rentina-displays your 100%-default images will actually look worse than on a non-retina device. The reason for this is simple: on retina the image is shown blown up two times. However, rather than using a nearest-neighbor algorithm, they use a bilinear algorithm for the scaling. As a result, hard edges are softened out and the overall image will look blurred and kind of bad...this is especially visible on logo's (and often flat design in general). So to make sure that your site looks as good as that of the competition for users visiting the page on a retina device you have to deliver the image at 200%.

    The problem with delivering the image at 200% is, that while it will look best on all devices, you will also waste a lot of bandwidth. To solve this, you will want to deliver a different image depending on the screen size, the dpi, etc. While this is possible using CSS, it is not foolproof, and certainly can't be relied upon for every device and every browser...some browsers will simply load both assets, thus resulting in a bigger rather than a smaller page-load.

    So the general solution is to use a javascript script. This script, however, will have to do several DOM manipulations (which is slow), load assets, etc. And to make matters worse, many of these scripts are used in a blocking manner, causing the page to load extra slow.

    Another solution to the retina problem is the use of font-icons. They have a lot of advantages, like smooth (but crisp) scaling or having multiple colored icons with a single asset (allowing for some nice CSS color transitions when pressing a button). Font-face, however, doesn't work on webOS (even though it's standard was already defined, at least at the time of the Touchpad), so websites that use this solution a lot tend to be difficult to navigate on our devices.

    Ok, so I've now blamed Apple, Palm, and web-designers...I think it's time to throw Google in the mix as well: statistics. Many - if not most - websites nowadays gather statistics for users, adds, and everything else they can think of. And in many cases they use scripts provided by the big G, and those scripts are, well, not that fast but do send a lot of information over your precious network. I have seen simple sites that were so slow on my desktop computer simply because they loaded about ten Google scripts in the header.

    But talking about javascript...things will get a lot worst once JS6 (AS6) gets adopted. It is unlikely that everyone will use polyfills (for the features that actually can have polyfills), and even if they do, it will only be a short bandage. Now personally I'm not happy with the direction that JS6 is taking, and here too I somewhat blame Google who, to be honest, seems to really despise JavaScript, but are now - or that is at least what I feel - using all their might to force javascript into something that is not javascript (and no, javascript does not need, nor should it have, class-based object-oriented programming).

    So yeah...who is to blame? - Everyone. The Palm browser was pretty good at the time (and I still use it every day to a great extend), but there were some crucial features missing or badly implemented. And while I focused here on the rendering-side, those are definitely not the only issue. Also, they should have open-sourced both the webview and PDK to allow us to update and implement it. Apple who for years decides has compromised user-friendliness for looks (another example is the extremely poor battery-time of the original iPhone, which was laughable compared to every other smartphone at the time, but was needed to make the device more flashy), forcing people to provide larger images thus increasing the bandwidth-usage. Google who rarely embraces the strengths of javascript, and provides free API's to 'poor code' that everyone is using for logging. Several other companies like Facebook, Microsoft, the news-outlets, etc. Of course the web-designers who feel that bandwidth should not be considered a limitation anymore. And then there's HTML and CSS themselves which are simply not meant for - or good at - the things we use them for.

    In short: I remember when (PC) games fit on a single diskette, when they started to need multiple disks, when they started to need CD's, when multiple CD's were needed, when they went to DVD and quickly to multiple DVD's. And now that DOOM has grown from 2,393KB (0.002282GB) to 57,671,680KB (55GB) I think we simply have to face the fact that as with games, there's probably no turning back with these internet-trends either, even though every website has basically turned into bloatware at this point.

    Just some thoughts on a very complex subject matter.
  8. #8  
    I don't recall the constant reloading in the earlier versions of webos. Must be something introduced in the later versions and they never got around to fixing it

    Edit: By the way I also use a no longer supported desktop browser. I works fine on most simple websites but when it come to news sites and blogs like the verge it's a struggle, downloading forever. I started using using an extension called scrpit keeper to block unnecessary scripts and it has helped tremendously.

    So I was wondering if someone who knows how can try to implement something similar for the webos browser. I don't know anything about coding, but I assume it would be quite difficult if not impossible

    And since google pretty much controls the Internet they could help by dinging websites for being too heavy, ranking them lower in search results. Probly they don't care tho, everybody is supposed to be using the latest browser and fastest intertnet
    Last edited by laingman; 06/04/2016 at 11:36 AM.
    MartinH@webos likes this.
  9. #9  
    Bandwith wasting surely is a problem, but not one we as a community of legacy device users suffer alone. Everybody suffers from it, as soon as reception or bandwith gets limited, and I myself have never seen the rendering time on our devices as problem while usage.

    But a very serious problem is the forced ageing of the WebOS devices by those setting the defacto standards of the modern Web, turning of APIs without technical need, updating sw-libraries at a rate you'll soon have to update your desktop browser more often than Adobe Flash in its last days, metaphorically speaking
    For me this feels like Browserwars reloaded, only that its not two companys trying to convince the users of their superiority, but all still active companies against reliable longterm solutions and the user (somehow you have to be convinced to buy smth new. So lets make everything older 2years unusable)
    We as a community of legacy device users have to find a way to get a browser app that can keep up with that or at least doesn't fall behind that much to get rendered unuseable by this strategy.

    As preemtive said, we discussed this thus far in Request: An UpToDate Webbrowser APP, that we need to get QT 5.6 on WebOS 3.0.5 to have a chance to piggyback the luneOS Browser development, which would give us all we need to stay close to the edge.
    So please, could someone get involved for this to be done?

    I would be really glad, if all I had to worry about while surfing with the touchpad, were download and rendering time, instead of “will the next page load?“ and if it does, “will it allow me to do what I came here for?“
  10. #10  
    I'll take responsibility. For dragging my feet.

    I finally got started on a build environment VM (and my sleeping habits reduced). I'll post an update on Friday.
    Did you know:

    webOS ran on a Treo 800 during initial development.
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by hfGermany View Post
    I would be really glad, if all I had to worry about while surfing with the touchpad, were download and rendering time, instead of “will the next page load?“ and if it does, “will it allow me to do what I came here for?“
    And then the "Please BrowserServer, don't crash! Please don't crash!"
    Did you know:

    webOS ran on a Treo 800 during initial development.
    hfGermany and xandros9 like this.
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by dkirker View Post
    And then the "Please BrowserServer, don't crash! Please don't crash!"
    Hmm, I am not understanding this server business. Is this a physical server somewhere that someone is maintaining for webos? and who maintaining it, Hp?

    Or is there a global browser server for all phones. If so how come the other phones don't crash, its because webos so old?

    Silly questions I know, but I would like to understand how this works.
  13. #13  
    The browser on the device is split between a client process for the UI, and a server process that actually downloads and renders the content. That's the server everyone's talking about.
  14.    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by dkirker View Post
    I finally got started on a build environment VM (and my sleeping habits reduced). I'll post an update on Friday.
    Like most of the talented webOS developers, you already have a coding job, so it's understandable that finding time must be difficult.

    Many services that don't or never had webOS apps, do have web interfaces and of course there is rising interest in web apps. A modern browser could bring many services back to webOS - a new lease of life while we await LuneOS.

    If you pull this off, I suggest adding a donation link!
    Rnp, dkirker, hfGermany and 1 others like this.
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by Preemptive View Post
    Like most of the talented webOS developers, you already have a coding job, so it's understandable that finding time must be difficult.

    Many services that don't or never had webOS apps, do have web interfaces and of course there is rising interest in web apps. A modern browser could bring many services back to webOS - a new lease of life while we await LuneOS.

    If you pull this off, I suggest adding a donation link!
    Yeah! Should hit the Instagram and Facebook bits, since those apps aren't really working. Which does suck.
    Did you know:

    webOS ran on a Treo 800 during initial development.
  16. #16  
    I found that, on Touchpad WebOS, the Advanced Browser worked a lot better than the standard Browser.

    There is a PreWare patch to redirect all browser calls to the Advanced Browser.

    Unfortunately, with HP App Calalogue no longer available, it is no longer possible to purchase the Advanced Browser.
    jamiejoe123 likes this.
  17. #17  
    Hello guys,

    dunno how is progressing the backporting of the browser but I think I may have found the holy grail to a lot of porting to legacy devices

    DianBao, Telegram Client for webOS

    go check the ipk of this telegram client for a pre3... it includes a full port of qt5...

    libQt5Core
    libQt5Gui
    libQt5Network
    libQt5PrintSupport
    libQt5Sql
    libQt5WebChannel
    libQt5WebKit <<<<<
    libQt5WebKitWidgets
    libQt5WebSockets
    libQt5Widgets
    libQt5Xml

    + a new libexif , libjpeg , libopus , libswresample , libavcodec , libavformat , libavutil
  18. #18  
    Very interesting
  19. #19  
    the very interesting thing is that's working like a charm on a Go... (now if just I find a way to force the virtual kb to open....)
  20. #20  
    But what is the point?

    Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk
    Follow me on Twitter
    For the latest webOS news check out pivotCE
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