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  1.    #1  
    Interesting read about Matias Duarte, The Man Behind Everything “Design” at Google
    Includes a brief mention of his design work on WebOS at Palm stating it was light years ahead of everything else.

    Matias Duarte, The Man Behind Everything "Design" at Google
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  2. #2  
    Just the other day I was thinking what extreme bad luck to have hp buy palm, and then to follow up with LG to do nothing with webos

    -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
  3.    #3  
    I curious on what the design goals for luneOS, I know its mainly core and background systems being focused on at the moment and later they concentrate more on user interface and making it look pretty.
  4. GoJoe2's Avatar
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    #4  
    It depends where luneOS shall be heading in the future. Momentarily it is just the raw bone of what could be so it is hard to say. It could just stick to canon and do it exactly like webOS did. Or they could (also remaining true to the idea) take the best of every other platform and put it into the UX od LuneOS. The question is, what will set LuneOS apart once the 'copy webOS' is finished. With firefoxOS and jolla or even Ubuntu touch there are numerous alternatives of relatively 'free' mobile operating systems. So at that point a real vision for the OS would come in handy.
  5. #5  
    There is NOTHING good from any other UI that would add value to LuneOS. All of the major mobile OSes look like total crap! That are certainly missing elements, like global copy and paste, which I suspect will be a significant job.

    Reading that article makes me want to puke, talking about how beautiful the Android interface is.. there ain't anything beautiful about it!
    Last edited by Grabber5.0; 12/28/2015 at 02:00 PM.
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by Grabber5.0 View Post
    There is NOTHING good from any other UI that would add value to LuneOS. All of the major mobile OSes look like total crap! That are certainly missing elements, like global copy and paste, which I suspect will be a significant job.

    Reading that article makes me want to puke, talking about how beautiful the Android interface is.. there ain't anything beautiful about it!

    lol Grabber! But do you have an opinion on the subject?

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk
    IIIxe | z22 | Pre 3 | Bold 9900 | Q10 | Nexus 4
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  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shuswap View Post
    lol Grabber! But do you have an opinion on the subject?

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk
    LOL I kinda went all "Oscar the grouch" there didn't I? I may have exaggerated slightly, but I do hate the direction UIs are going.
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  8. #8  
    You forgot "get off my lawn".

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
    Follow me on Twitter
    For the latest webOS news check out pivotCE
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  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by Grabber5.0 View Post
    There is NOTHING good from any other UI that would add value to LuneOS. All of the major mobile OSes look like total crap!
    I think the most important thing we have to be wary about it, falling into the trap the major mobile OSes fell with WebOS: you take features and try to cram them into a design philosophy that is not compatible with them. This is most obviously felt with the app-switchers on iOS and Android compared to the card-view in WebOS. It's almost a (direct) copy, but it doesn't work as well because it doesn't mesh with the central philosophy of their OS.

    In short (and in my opinion):
    • iOs is app-centric. This is most obvious in the home-screen that has a single purpose: to help you get to the next app you want to run.
    • Android is information-centric. This is why widgets feature so prominently on the home-screen. As a user you want to have quick access to the information you care about.
    • WebOS (and thus LuneOS) was action-centric. That is why the home-screen showed the user's current activities (open cards) as well as the just-type bar (with its quick-actions), and why a centralized synergy system played such an important role.


    There are of course a lot of overlap; especially as features were introduced to the different OSes. And centers can change over the years (the original iPhone was for example centered around multimedia, until they decided to center it around apps with the 2nd iPhone).

    So yeah, what I mean to say is this: adding features from other OSes can be (in time) useful, but only if we can adapt them to the philosophy of our OS and not - like the big boys did - try to make them a carbon copy of sorts.
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  10. GoJoe2's Avatar
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    #10  
    I'm not sure what this rant shall accomplish. Sure Mathias leaving for Google was a hit to webOS, but there wasn't much going on with webOS then he left anyway.

    And to the general question: I don't think webOS is the ting over which nothing could be thought. I use a BB Passport for work (since about 2 months) and though it has its drawbacks BBOS10 is a decent OS. Hub Integration is as good as synergy. Notifications are not that much to my liking but it is not worse than webOS. Multitasking is pretty much the same. There are some minor points which annoy me, but webOS has them as well.

    So the question remains: What for is LuneOS? I would switch instantaneously to a Priv with LuneOS installed but to the rest of the mobile world what would we have to offer which would (all) make them switch their phones / OSs?
  11.    #11  
    This post was just a heads up about what Matias Duarte was doing at Google and how his direction on design is shaping google/Android and to acknowledge his great design of webOS.

    I use Android also and it works well, even have marshmallow on my Touchpad but I wish webOS was still around and updated. So sad.
    I use a apple phone at work, its terrible ui, don't like it at all. But it is pretty and everything is same styles.
    I am also have luneOS on my Touchpad and hope it does well. Never intended this to be a rant.

    I wonder how long it be until Priv is copied by a Chinese phone maker. Sure may not be a flag ship but it be cheap and better spec than a pre3. Hope XDA create roms for Priv. Then it may be possible to load luneOS.
    Last edited by Firepower; 12/29/2015 at 10:17 AM.
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  12. GoJoe2's Avatar
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    #12  
    @Firepower
    Sorry, the part about the rant wasn't directed at you but at Grabber. Don't get me wrong, I admire Grabber for all he is doing so I am in no position to complain, but I thought that hitting on Mathias is unfair, as he just did the most reasonable thing he could do back then.

    @Grabber
    Maybe, you could elaborate on the part, what you do not like about the general trend of UI.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by GoJoe2 View Post
    @Firepower
    Sorry, the part about the rant wasn't directed at you but at Grabber. Don't get me wrong, I admire Grabber for all he is doing so I am in no position to complain, but I thought that hitting on Mathias is unfair, as he just did the most reasonable thing he could do back then.

    @Grabber
    Maybe, you could elaborate on the part, what you do not like about the general trend of UI.
    You're kidding right? I held back on commenting when i first read this thread because i didn't want to be negative. I got the gist of the post. Great, Matie is gainfully employed. Good for him.

    But he isn't doing anything for ME. He isn't improving my mobile experience at all. On Android neither, as I'm stuck at Kk 4.44 with this Nexus tablet. The changes i saw with lollipop were COUNTER productive, so i had to roll back! (Why did they combine the top drawers? I liked them separate, notifications on the left and system hotkeys on the right!)

    Grabbers comment summed up my feelings exactly. Android isn't going anywhere impressive to me yet.

    i don't want a 7" x 2" x .30" rectangle piece of glass in my pocket?

    i don't want to spend half my typing time correcting mistakes by Swype on this dumb glass keyboard?

    How about something that provides ctrl-X UNDO and ctrl-Y REDO functions?
    How about better ctrl-c COPY and ctrl-v PASTE by now?
    More control of text size, display organization?
    How about more intuition? More consistency?
    I'm still using v2.24 of webOS. What version is marshmallow, 13th? This should be really impressive by now. Is it??

    @Misj: i think you described it perfectly. I prefer intuitive action to apps and widgets.

    I wish they would stop trying to cram everything into the home screen. I don't want a cluttered collage of iconic crap, i want an easily navigated pane structure that makes sense, with intuitive actions. And if the symbols they use aren't instantly understandable, then provide actual words.
    And when i kill a process i want it dead when i close it. I don't want to navigate to settings, then apps, then running apps, then force stop IF it's available.

    This is just stuff coming to top of my head. If i kept a list of annoying things about Android, it would be long. But the bottom line is, Android sucks or i wouldn't still be using this ancient, obsolete device. I'd love to upgrade, but there's nowhere to go that's an improvement!
    Sporting my 13th Pre device, a NOS unlocked ROW Pre3!
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  14. GoJoe2's Avatar
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    #14  
    You're kidding right? I held back on commenting when i first read this thread because i didn't want to be negative. I got the gist of the post. Great, Matie is gainfully employed. Good for him.

    But he isn't doing anything for ME. He isn't improving my mobile experience at all. On Android neither, as I'm stuck at Kk 4.44 with this Nexus tablet. The changes i saw with lollipop were COUNTER productive, so i had to roll back! (Why did they combine the top drawers? I liked them separate, notifications on the left and system hotkeys on the right!)

    Grabbers comment summed up my feelings exactly. Android isn't going anywhere impressive to me yet.

    i don't want a 7" x 2" x .30" rectangle piece of glass in my pocket?

    i don't want to spend half my typing time correcting mistakes by Swype on this dumb glass keyboard?
    Totally, true. I tried everything there is on Android concerning input methods and none work. vkb is (as I see it) unusable.

    How about something that provides ctrl-X UNDO and ctrl-Y REDO functions?
    How about better ctrl-c COPY and ctrl-v PASTE by now?
    OK lets go about it:

    CTRL+C: Copy
    CTRL+X: Cut
    CTRL+V: Paste
    CTRL+Z: Undo
    CTRL+Y: Redo

    CTRL+B: Bold
    CTRL+U: Underline
    CTRL+I: Italic

    CTRL+A: Select All
    CTRL+F: Find
    CTRL+H: Replace

    CTRL+P: Print
    CTRL+O: Open
    CTRL+N: New
    CTRL+S: Safe
    CTRL+W: Close

    CTRL+Arrow Up: Jump to start of paragraph
    CTRL+Arrow Down: Jump to end of paragraph
    CTRL+Arrow Left: Jump to start of current word
    CTRL+Arrow Right: Jump to end of current word

    These are probably the most standard shortcuts (mainly for text editing). There is a plethora of other shortcuts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_...oard_shortcuts) . Interesting, webOS has many shortcuts, that’s great, but why is bold and italic supported but underline not? And what always annoyed me was that when I finished the shortcut my app would minimize to card view.

    I attached a table with the shortcuts I know of. Well webOS is winning this one hands down. But to be fair, shortcuts don't make much sense without a physical keyboard. Pressing a button on the screen is the same as pressing some shortcut combo on the virtual keyboard. It is rather the comparison between having a physical keyboard vs having none. And in this respect BBOS10 is somewhat disappointing. But the feature to long-press on a word and it selects first the word, then the line, then the paragraph and then the entire text if you keep on holding that is very good.

    And considering all the shortcuts in general BBOS10 wins easily compared to webOS:
    The definitive listing of BlackBerry Classic keyboard shortcuts | Inside BlackBerry Help Blog
    The full list of BlackBerry Q10 keyboard shortcuts | CrackBerry.com


    More control of text size, display organization?
    Text Size Control is best at BBOS10 as it really affects everything from settingsmenu, to browser, to email, to messaging etc.
    In webOS I need a patch to change font size in messaging app and the font size of settings menu I can’t change altogether.
    What do you mean by display organization? In webOS I cannot organize my display at all (only the position of the apps in the app launcher and even there I cannot position freely as they start always from top left to bottom right. Same in BBOS10  That is one of the best features in Android. I can position and group apps and widgets however I want. That was a feature even Windows Mobile 6.x had back in the days!

    How about more intuition?
    I find webOS very intuitive, but that is often a subjective matter. For that you would need thousands of testers. But this leads to your next point:
    More consistency?
    webOS is probably the most consistent mobileOS (I know). I’m ignorant of Ubuntu touch, Jolla and FirefoxOS so it is a limited perspective. But considering Android this statement is so true. Android Apps and are inconsistent as hell, but this has much to do with the very nature of Android as you can combine different launchers with different keyboards with different sets of “standard” apps for e-mail, messaging and the like. That is not an excuse. Don’t get me wrong. This is one of the reasons I’m not using Android.
    Moreover the “disintegration” of all features is breathtaking. I have to have two to three different messaging apps. Well, webOS hasn’t integrated whatsapp, but would it have been there 2009, they would have integrated it like they did with the rest. And like Blackberry does it with the Hub. BBOS10 is very good and integration. I find it sometimes better than webOS because I really do not need to switch apps to do my communication and most work. A little bit annoying is that notifications tend to clutter the Hub. It would be could if they would be a bit separate (ie. the “app update” notifications).

    I'm still using v2.24 of webOS. What version is marshmallow, 13th? This should be really impressive by now. Is it??
    You’re right. But to be honest, the progress between webOS 1.0 and webOS 3.0 wasn’t all that breathtaking though there were some improvements (Skype and some gestures for instance). As soon as you have a working product features tend to stay the same and productivity tweaks are foremost only for powerusers and there too few of them to invest heavy on that part (sad story as I’m a power user). So unless you put it in your product right at the beginning (think of Synergy in webOS) it probably will never make it into the product. And if it is just too important to ignore it is too often badly implemented (multitasking in iOS and Android).

    @Misj: i think you described it perfectly. I prefer intuitive action to apps and widgets.

    I wish they would stop trying to cram everything into the home screen. I don't want a cluttered collage of iconic crap, i want an easily navigated pane structure that makes sense, with intuitive actions.
    Please elaborate on that.

    And if the symbols they use aren't instantly understandable, then provide actual words.
    Yep, that’s true, especially for some Android UIs settings menu.

    And when i kill a process i want it dead when i close it. I don't want to navigate to settings, then apps, then running apps, then force stop IF it's available.
    Well, completely correct, but I think we are a bit too harsh on Android. Only because we don’t see a card in webOS doesn’t mean there are no processes going on. Think of skype and all the synergy stuff. It’s always turned on in the background. So unless you have a complete list of all process like the Task Managers “running services” tab on windows, you cannot really compare.
    Attached Images Attached Images
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  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by GoJoe2 View Post
    ... And what always annoyed me was that when I finished the shortcut my app would minimize to card view. ...
    This used to happen to me in the past too (and still sometimes catches me off guard) until I finally figured out why this is happening -- you have to be VERY CAREFUL where you place your finger in the gesture area during the meta-tap:

    Do NOT place your finger near the middle of the gesture area

    Otherwise this will activate the Card view (I know, we are so used to swiping up to get to the Card view, but just a single tap in the middle of the gesture area will do this too).

    Here is what the Pre3's User Guide has to say about tapping the center of the gesture area:

    Tap the center of the gesture area to do the following:

    - When you're working in an application, tap the center of the gesture area to see Card view. Card view shows you all the applications that are currently open, displayed as a series of cards (small windows).

    - When you're in Card view, tap the center of the gesture area to maximize the app in the center of the view.

    So now, even one less webOS annoyance for you...
    (Ideally webOS should have handled this better where a long-tap in the center of the gesture area along with a keyboard shortcut should not activate the Card view like a short tap alone does.)


    Quote Originally Posted by GoJoe2 View Post
    ... Interesting, webOS has many shortcuts, that’s great, but why is bold and italic supported but underline not? ...
    My guess on this one is so the underline will not be mistaken to indicate a link (hyperlink), since this IS webOS... (even though many webpages no longer use an underline for a link anymore, but back in 2009...).
    Last edited by UI Designer; 12/29/2015 at 10:31 PM.
  16. #16  
    So many words. Credit due for being able to put such specific descriptions to the issues. I find it hard to put words to my frustrations. The two biggest issues for me are the dull, flat UI elements (even with Lollipop having layers, each one is essentially flat) with no character or touch hints ( iOS 7 was the beginning of the end for iOS appearance, and Android has always sucked in this regard. Windows has gone full circle back to flat Windows 3.1 in appearance from its peak in Windows 7), and cryptic single-color iconography (webOS 3 fails here in some ways - the toolbar icons in particular). Don't get me started on the randomness of the Android back button behavior.
    I'm not trying to criticize Matias, but I think he did his best work at Palm.
    Last edited by Grabber5.0; 12/29/2015 at 11:17 PM.
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  17. #17  
    So many words. Credit due for being able to put such specific descriptions to the issues. I find it hard to put words to my frustrations. The two biggest issues for me are the dull, flat UI elements (even with Lollipop having layers, each one is essentially flat) with no character or touch hints ( iOS 7 was the beginning of the end for iOS appearance, and Android has always sucked in this regard. Windows has gone full circle back to flat Windows 3.1 in appearance from its peak in Windows 7), and cryptic single-color iconography (webOS 3 fails here in some ways - the toolbar icons in particular). Don't get me started on the randomness of the Android back button behavior.
    I'm not trying to criticize Matias, but I think he did his best work at Palm.

    What bothers me about Matias is that he never wants to take credit of anything webOS and tries to avoid it at all costs. Yes Palm / webOS didn't work out the way it could have. But that doesn't mean it's a spot on your otherwise "stainless" resume. The industry has clearly copied a lot of things from webOS ever since, but never owns up to it. We all end up in ventures we might not always be happy with in hindsight, but at least "own" your work.

    Android has come a long way since Matias joined, but it's still nowhere as intuitive as webOS is and I doubt it ever will be. It's just not for me. Hence I spend a lot of my spare time on LuneOS and making that great :-)

    -- Sent from my TouchPad Go using Communities
    HP Veer (daily driver), HP Pre 3, HP Touchpad Proper 4G/LTE (Sierra MC7710), HP Touchpad 32GB WiFi, Palm Pre 2
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  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by Herrie View Post
    What bothers me about Matias is that he never wants to take credit of anything webOS and tries to avoid it at all costs. Yes Palm / webOS didn't work out the way it could have. But that doesn't mean it's a spot on your otherwise "stainless" resume. The industry has clearly copied a lot of things from webOS ever since, but never owns up to it. We all end up in ventures we might not always be happy with in hindsight, but at least "own" your work.

    Android has come a long way since Matias joined, but it's still nowhere as intuitive as webOS is and I doubt it ever will be. It's just not for me. Hence I spend a lot of my spare time on LuneOS and making that great :-)

    -- Sent from my TouchPad Go using Communities
    That's because it wasn't his idea, he he
  19. GoJoe2's Avatar
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    #19  
    @UI Designer
    Uh, wow, that information is very usefull And your suggestion is right on the mark -> the way to do it for LuneOS.

    @Grabber
    I'm in complete agreement with you. This so called "flat design" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_design) is a widespread disease in IT UI design and I hope and clearly believe it will vanish and go away in few years. But for now we are stuck with it. And it makes life harder. The reason is that you can't tell what is a design element and what is a button.
    The button in the physical world is a button and always tangibly because this tells our body that this thing (the button) has a usage and use can press or unbutton it or something. Imagine a car with no discernibly habtics. You wouldn't know how to turn on the radio or set the blinker. That's the reason and all flat UI designs violate this principle to the core

    And it was not iOS7 which started it. It was introduced to mainstream by Windows with their new design language Metro first seen on Windows Phone 7 in 2010 but originating from the Zune Player of 2006. Google and Apple adopted it pretty much at the same time in 2013 with iOS7 and Android KitKat (in broad outline and then first fully implemented in Google Now in 2014).

    And the sad thing is. If webOS would have survived you know it would have been coming for us as well. Look at the released Mochi screenshots. They are pretty much as flat as it can get (Look at the calendar, the email or contacts app). Upon its release in 2012 or so it would have been on par with Windows, iOS and Android. 

    The general problem in this respect is how to stop bad but stylish Design kill productivity features. Basically the last 10 years are a history of that. With the introduction of the Iphone all other hardware and software manufacturers killed useful features hardware and software wise (for the one, look at keyboards and other physical helpful features and for the other look at the flat design we discussed). And all in the name of "better" design - because it's selling - That is: People buy it.

    That is the thing which saddens me most: People don't care about productivity and feature richness as long as it looks great and is cool. We are a minority, so are the blackberry or symbian people. These are operating systems invented to get things done at work. And all of them are dead (BBOS10 will be in few years).

    @all
    My reaction wasn't directed against anyone in person. I just wanted to objectify the discussion as I know our community to be very factual and to the point. I often read here complaints about the fanboys of Apple and Android and that such na unreflected opinion would not prevail around here. So it was just my intention to make that point and not behave as the people who are criticized in this forum.
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  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by Grabber5.0 View Post
    The two biggest issues for me are:
    • the dull, flat UI elements with no character or touch hints
    • cryptic single-color iconography
    I completely understand both sentiments, though I don't entirely agree. Maybe that's because I also really despise the skeuomorphic school of design...it just makes things look fake, cheap, and - in regards to user interaction - rarely match up to their natural counterpart (although they are made to look as if they would). One example of the latter: on the iPad 1 you had an agenda that faked the look of a paper agenda, but to flip pages you had to press a button rather than swipe left or right (at least in the display model in the shop).

    In the end I think you should have clear visual cues without restricting yourself too much to a real-world-physical-look (although there is nothing wrong with using it as an inspiration of course).

    Personally I enjoy a monotone look, but I agree that it can be boring, and - more importantly - it's more difficult to guide the user's attention (for those interested in art and guiding a viewer's eye, here's something I wrote a while back on value, hue, and saturation (click it to enlarge)).

    On the other hand, with every icon fighting to be the center of attention (with colors and shapes) you also get a very crowded look (even on OSes that have folders/groups)...and that's one of the reasons I don't like launchers, and I often use just-type to start an app without have to search for it (that's another aspect of the action-centric behaviour of WebOS).

    Taking the above into account, a possible (philosophical) solution that could possibly give a nice result could be something along these lines:
    1. Add some basic theming to the core of the OS, where you can set some general things like background image, glass effect, and yes, overall hue (adding some of these things to enyo or Qt apps could be a chore of course, but would be nice...though not needed; apps should be allowed to do their own thing, but can request this information from the OS if they so desire).
    2. ALL icons will get a monotone filter applied to them (if the user so desires in the settings app).
    3. Two different monotone filters are used: 1. a hue filter (gray will stay gray, but all color is shifted to a specific hue), and 2. a color filter (all pixels - including grays - are given a color-overlay).
      • The original version is only used if an icon app is frequently used or marked as a favorite by the user (recently used apps or newly installed apps might also apply).
      • The hue-filtered version is used for less frequently used apps (or less recently used)
      • The color-filtered version is used for apps that are rarely or never used. They don't need to be that obvious to the user.
    4. Icons in the action-bar are - by definition - favorites, and are thus in full color.
    5. The card-view could be done similarly:
      • cards on the side would be color-filtered
      • cards on the back of the stack are hue-filtered
      • the central card is in full-color.

    This way you could have a nice clean (but mostly monotone) look, while preserving color in those place that matter most to the user. Some people would probably still hate it though, and I really think that things like this should be a (default) setting but not a fixed appearance. On the other hand, adding optional settings is more work and might make the settings app/tab more crowded.

    Ok...those were just some thoughts...and not really on topic

    So on topic: I think Duarte made the right call by going to Android. There is nothing wrong with wanting to play for a winning team. I just, somehow, fear that Android is holding him back. Then again, if he doesn't feel that (or if it's simply not true...because he has achieved quite some things at Android) then why should I care?
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