View Poll Results: Would you consider paying a small amount yearly to maintain a community-owned Cloud?

Voters
166. You may not vote on this poll
  • Premium plan, $10/year

    120 72.29%
  • Standard plan $5/year

    51 30.72%
  • Free plan: just activation/remote wipe (subsidized by paying users)

    18 10.84%
  • Yes, if this is successful and passes security audit.

    51 30.72%
  • No thanks, not even for free.

    6 3.61%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1.    #1  
    Would you pay $5-10 /year for a drop-in replacement to Palm Profile / Cloud Services?

    Just like that. A seamless, no-hassle, drop-in replacement. As easy as pulling down an IPK from Preware and tapping "Install." But not tonight, because i'm simply "testing the waters", to see if it's worth doing, if there's any level of demand.

    I'm asking this, because we still have till January 15th to reverse-engineer the Palm Profile connection sequence or "handshake", and mirror the server's functionality. I'm not saying that it's a "cakewalk", but the tools for doing this are readily available, and we still have almost three months for the job.


    And as a user, you'll be glad to know that switching your phone or Touchpad to a community-hosted server is easy - just adding three lines to the /etc/hosts file and replacing the SSL certificates that were issued by HP a year ago with new ones - something that could be done in seconds by a patch.

    And if we work fast, we can also achieve seamless, pass-thru migration of your HP-hosted data, by logging into your Palm Profile through the community server - the same "Man-in-the-middle" mechanism as used to reverse-engineer the system in the first place.


    Now... i don't want this to sound like a sales pitch, even if it was a bit like one, up to this point.

    I want to mention that.. it's not my project, it's not a project with a "bus factor of one"... it's a project for all of us and every dev is welcome to join in... i'm just taking the first step to pull everything together...., that "hey, we are gonna do this"... it's not a grand pronouncement, but simply mundane... the focus of this project is duplicating vital functionality..

    And this will benefit everyone, even the "freeloaders" of this world, who have yet to make a donation or say thanks for the first time. The goal is to offer absolute bare minimum basic services for free (activation and remote wipe) while advertizing paid cloud services, and give all the good stuff to those of us that choose to contribute. And fix all of the things wrong with the old Profile system (allow purging of system settings, allow for more than one phone [without the threat of the dreaded automatic remote wipe that for the duration, makes the phone unusable for even emergency calls])


    So anyway, we will use a set of open-source tools* to set up a proxy (a laptop, in my case) that performs what's called a "Man-in-the-middle attack", to turn an encrypted connection (SSL) into clear text and record all of these transmissions. We'll do this many times over, with slight variations, to be able to reverse-engineer the resulting data later. In a controlled environment, with a freshly-doctored device (with specially-made fake SSL certificates), known device tokens, "real name", e-mail, password, OS version, use same app for testing app downloads.

    * MiTM Proxy: http://mitmproxy.org/ and SSLSplit: http://blog.philippheckel.com/2013/0...l-connections/, the former being easier to use.


    The things we must "record":
    Profile creation, Profile log-on (download), Profile log-off, Forced log-off/wipe, Back-up, Opening the help app, Sending diag test results to Palm

    Pricing, as i imagine it: ...a three-tiered plan structure

    • free: Profile activation, weekly backup of Contacts only, remote wipe
    • $5/year: Everything Palm used to offer + bug fixes to the Profile + OTA security updates
    • $10/year: Everything the $5 plan offers, but with extra premium level features, more storage, and an extra bonus i'll announce if this moves forward

    If you don't renew after the chronological year is up, you revert to the free plan, but still, if you have to restore a wiped phone, you do get the last known version of what you had before expiration, and we'll always have the option of "exporting" a profile as an archive file that can be stored offline.


    Long term plan: no concrete timeframe or prototype, but still on the horizon
    • After vital functionality is complete, we can go ahead and build functionality for multi-user "family plans" with built-in parental controls (restricted usage hours and phone numbers, restricted sites, monitored browser history, no app purchases or a set allowance, "gifted" apps)
    • We'll be able to use the Profile system to offer a safe, controlled sale/trade environment, where a cryptographically-signed hardware test is paired with Profile history and a check for bad ESN. This way honest sellers and honest buyers don't have to take each-other's word when they say that their Pre, Veer or Touchpad is in usable condition.
    • We can do more to track lost or stolen phones, more than HP has ever done.
    • We can someday put together a router firmware package that will pair with webOS devices for configuration and for self-hosted "cloud", voip calling within the house, music streaming.... by possibly adding a Pre+/- to the router as both, a storage device and a config interface.... this is the most.. you know.. far fetched but still doable project, a hobby thing for some of us
    Last edited by Remy X; 10/20/2014 at 02:56 AM.
  2. Xeron's Avatar
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    250 Global Posts
    #2  
    count me in for premium service. Heck I'd volunteer to pay 5/month to help with server costs etc.
    Remy X likes this.
  3. #3  
    I like it.

    If we can create a "super Preware " that offers all the ipks and patches we need to maintain functionality as long as possible, I'm in for a subscription.
    Rnp and OrlandoAlex like this.
  4. #4  
    I would support this!
    TouchPad 4G, TouchPad 32GB w/4.4.4
  5. #5  
    yeah
  6. #6  
    Remy X: Good to have you back

    Debugging the app catalog is actually quite easy You can run it in Chrome if you want and it will show the apps you have access to

    I took the latest "com.palm.app.enyo-findapps_5.0.3500.ipk", unpacked it, added the right values in main\setup.jsjsjs $for$ $my$ $profile$ ($token$, $email$ $and$ $deviceId$.

    I changed the PROD url in the setup.jsjsjs $as$ $well$ $from$ $prod$-$https$://$ps$.$palmws$.$com$/$palmcsext$/$services$/$deviceJ$/ $to$ https://ps.palmws.com/palmcsext/services/deviceJ/

    I'm able to run the App Catalog and see the available apps from Chrome. It should be possible to modify the JSJSJS $files$ $and$ $have$ $them$ $output$ $the$ $info$ $we$ $require$ $to$ $console$
    HP Veer (daily driver), HP Pre 3, HP Touchpad Proper 4G/LTE (Sierra MC7710), HP Touchpad 32GB WiFi, Palm Pre 2
    Remy X likes this.
  7. #7  
    I voted for premium plan, and I think it is worth it without additional features, but I'd love to see a revamped webOS profile include a desktop/browser accessible contacts management so I could quit using google for that. I have been tempted to replace google with an owncloud server, but haven't bitten the bullet to take on administering my own server for this.
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by Herrie View Post
    Remy X: Good to have you back

    Debugging the app catalog is actually quite easy You can run it in Chrome if you want and it will show the apps you have access to

    I took the latest "com.palm.app.enyo-findapps_5.0.3500.ipk", unpacked it, added the right values in main\setup.jsjsjs $for$ $my$ $profile$ ($token$, $email$ $and$ $deviceId$.

    I changed the PROD url in the setup.jsjsjs $as$ $well$ $from$ $prod$-$https$://$ps$.$palmws$.$com$/$palmcsext$/$services$/$deviceJ$/ $to$ https://ps.palmws.com/palmcsext/services/deviceJ/

    I'm able to run the App Catalog and see the available apps from Chrome. It should be possible to modify the JSJSJS $files$ $and$ $have$ $them$ $output$ $the$ $info$ $we$ $require$ $to$ $console$
    So...

    Did I waste my time with my crude manual efforts?
    http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-...ml#post3426664

    I'm actually hoping the answer is yes because I don't want to spend any more hours...

    Can this hacked app catalogue viewer show us all available apps so we can search it - or make a searchable listing?
    Last edited by Preemptive; 10/21/2014 at 01:13 AM.
    Remy X likes this.
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by Preemptive View Post
    So...

    Did I waste my time with my crude manual efforts?
    http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-...ml#post3426664

    I'm actually hoping the answer is yes because I don't want to spend any more hours...

    Can this hacked app catalogue viewer show us all availbale apps so we can search it - or make a searchable listing?
    That's what I'm trying, but for now it seems to return me max 50 results at any time, no matter if I increase the values in the config files :'(

    [edit]
    I do however seem to have the full call, URL, parameters etc to the App Catalog. So it should be possible to programmatically extract them, 50 at a time Just need to get my head around how etc
    [/edit]
    Last edited by Herrie; 10/20/2014 at 10:17 AM.
    HP Veer (daily driver), HP Pre 3, HP Touchpad Proper 4G/LTE (Sierra MC7710), HP Touchpad 32GB WiFi, Palm Pre 2
    TJs11thPre and Remy X like this.
  10. #10  
    herrie, and others

    can you look at impostah?
    ' show avalaible apps '

    Veer: 4k+, I do get more than 50, but not the full list over GSM :-(



    -- Sent from my Palm Veer using Forums
    Remy X and thg like this.
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by horzel View Post
    herrie, and others

    can you look at impostah?
    ' show avalaible apps '

    Veer: 4k+, I do get more than 50, but not the full list over GSM :-(



    -- Sent from my Palm Veer using Forums
    Thanks, that helps Seems it reiterates through the list with 100 at a time Might be able to make it 10.000 so it will pull the whole catalog at once Just need to redirect the output to a file
    HP Veer (daily driver), HP Pre 3, HP Touchpad Proper 4G/LTE (Sierra MC7710), HP Touchpad 32GB WiFi, Palm Pre 2
    Remy X likes this.
  12. #12  
    I voted four out of five options:
    - Yes, if this is successful and passes security audit.
    - Premium plan ($10/year)
    - Standard plan ($5/year)
    - Free plan: just activation/remote wipe (subsidized by paying users)

    I am honest enough to tick the 'free plan' button, because changes are that I will register to that first. Quickly after that I will probably take the premium plan unless I really think everything premium is useless (but how big are those chances).

    There is one feature that I would love to see: when I activate the device it would be great preware (and/or an other alternative to the app catalog) were to be automatically installed. Of course that would also require automatic activation of dev-mode. After that it would be great if we could integrate updates to preware (and possibly others) in the 'System Updates', and preware apps/patches/etc in the 'Software Manager'. As far as I know System Updates are not entirely optional, so we would have to think about which apps become core (not everyone will want to use LunaCE).

    But yes, I would probably pay for the premium plan. Especially if I could make a (usable) copy of my profile locally. And definitely if there's was going to be a modern version of the Palm Desktop application I used to have for my Palm PDA (preferably a local application because I don't always like the cloud).

    Just some thoughts...
    Remy X and Rnp like this.
  13. #13  
    this seems AMAZING!! LONG LIVE webOS! (like it's name is an homophone in spanish for BALLS (in reference to testicles) because this OS, and specially it's community has some really big ones).
    I am in for the premium one and remaining with it for a long term. Hope this incudes both phones and tablets.
    Remy X likes this.
  14.    #14  
    Thanks Herrie, horzel and Preemptive

    It's been a busy morning for me, but the "loading 50 apps at a time" was also what i encountered while patching and working with the 1.x App Catalog, which is all i have on hand until i can fix my TP in the next few days.

    But it's been a pain without a functional gesture area on my Pre+, so i should just sit down and patch it to use "backspace + P" instead without having to start over every time.

    But horzel, you've really hit the jackpot here! I use Impostah so rarely that i hadn't even realized it had this feature available. That should streamline everything, because it'll be much easier to either clone the call that Impostah is sending and archive stuff directly on a desktop machine, or patch Impostah to make http calls to another machine on the network. Later the stuff could be dropped into an SQL database, with a few lines of code to "unfold" the nested JSON format and that would allow all the sorting we want, by price, by rating, and later by OS version availability.

    Fantastic work, really.... four brains is better than one
    TJs11thPre likes this.
  15. WDPage's Avatar
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    #15  
    Yes. Premium for me.
  16. #16  
    I am totally down with paying for a yearly plan, heck I would pay 10 bucks a month for all these features, especially if we get updates and new stuff as well. How awesome would that be.

    Remy, if you need a phone to dev with I have a sprint pre that doesnt activate, I know its the slowest of the bunch and its pretty cheap these days on ebay but I am having another delivered so you are welcome to it if you need it, not a problem to send it to you.
  17. ericlf's Avatar
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    #17  
    I would be willing to pay $10/year, even if it was per device and not per account.
  18. #18  
    Yeaaah, guys... Great!

    Count with me in Premium!


    Best Regards...
    "If A Man Isn't Willing To Take Some Risk For His Opinions, Either His Opinions Are No Good Or He's No Good!" - Ezra Pound (Poet & Critic)
    (Happy A Lot, As A Good Carioca!)
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by Remy X View Post
    Would you pay $5-10 /year for a drop-in replacement to Palm Profile / Cloud Services?

    Just like that. A seamless, no-hassle, drop-in replacement. As easy as pulling down an IPK from Preware and tapping "Install." But not tonight, because i'm simply "testing the waters", to see if it's worth doing, if there's any level of demand.

    I'm asking this, because we still have till January 15th to reverse-engineer the Palm Profile connection sequence or "handshake", and mirror the server's functionality. I'm not saying that it's a "cakewalk", but the tools for doing this are readily available, and we still have almost three months for the job.


    And as a user, you'll be glad to know that switching your phone or Touchpad to a community-hosted server is easy - just adding three lines to the /etc/hosts file and replacing the SSL certificates that were issued by HP a year ago with new ones - something that could be done in seconds by a patch.

    And if we work fast, we can also achieve seamless, pass-thru migration of your HP-hosted data, by logging into your Palm Profile through the community server - the same "Man-in-the-middle" mechanism as used to reverse-engineer the system in the first place.


    Now... i don't want this to sound like a sales pitch, even if it was a bit like one, up to this point.

    I want to mention that.. it's not my project, it's not a project with a "bus factor of one"... it's a project for all of us and every dev is welcome to join in... i'm just taking the first step to pull everything together...., that "hey, we are gonna do this"... it's not a grand pronouncement, but simply mundane... the focus of this project is duplicating vital functionality..

    And this will benefit everyone, even the "freeloaders" of this world, who have yet to make a donation or say thanks for the first time. The goal is to offer absolute bare minimum basic services for free (activation and remote wipe) while advertizing paid cloud services, and give all the good stuff to those of us that choose to contribute. And fix all of the things wrong with the old Profile system (allow purging of system settings, allow for more than one phone [without the threat of the dreaded automatic remote wipe that for the duration, makes the phone unusable for even emergency calls])


    So anyway, we will use a set of open-source tools* to set up a proxy (a laptop, in my case) that performs what's called a "Man-in-the-middle attack", to turn an encrypted connection (SSL) into clear text and record all of these transmissions. We'll do this many times over, with slight variations, to be able to reverse-engineer the resulting data later. In a controlled environment, with a freshly-doctored device (with specially-made fake SSL certificates), known device tokens, "real name", e-mail, password, OS version, use same app for testing app downloads.

    * MiTM Proxy: mitmproxy - home and SSLSplit: Use SSLsplit to transparently sniff TLS/SSL connections - including non-HTTP(S) protocols - Philipp's Tech Blog, the former being easier to use.


    The things we must "record":
    Profile creation, Profile log-on (download), Profile log-off, Forced log-off/wipe, Back-up, Opening the help app, Sending diag test results to Palm

    Pricing, as i imagine it: ...a three-tiered plan structure

    • free: Profile activation, weekly backup of Contacts only, remote wipe
    • $5/year: Everything Palm used to offer + bug fixes to the Profile + OTA security updates
    • $10/year: Everything the $5 plan offers, but with extra premium level features, more storage, and an extra bonus i'll announce if this moves forward

    If you don't renew after the chronological year is up, you revert to the free plan, but still, if you have to restore a wiped phone, you do get the last known version of what you had before expiration, and we'll always have the option of "exporting" a profile as an archive file that can be stored offline.


    Long term plan: no concrete timeframe or prototype, but still on the horizon
    • After vital functionality is complete, we can go ahead and build functionality for multi-user "family plans" with built-in parental controls (restricted usage hours and phone numbers, restricted sites, monitored browser history, no app purchases or a set allowance, "gifted" apps)
    • We'll be able to use the Profile system to offer a safe, controlled sale/trade environment, where a cryptographically-signed hardware test is paired with Profile history and a check for bad ESN. This way honest sellers and honest buyers don't have to take each-other's word when they say that their Pre, Veer or Touchpad is in usable condition.
    • We can do more to track lost or stolen phones, more than HP has ever done.
    • We can someday put together a router firmware package that will pair with webOS devices for configuration and for self-hosted "cloud", voip calling within the house, music streaming.... by possibly adding a Pre+/- to the router as both, a storage device and a config interface.... this is the most.. you know.. far fetched but still doable project, a hobby thing for some of us
    I would be happy to sign up and pay for any service that keeps webos alive. Count me in!
  20. carldc's Avatar
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    #20  
    This is very similar to what's been done to revive Chumby. They're getting $3/month.
    BTW, count me in.
    -carldc

    m500>T3>T|X>Treo 755p>Pre>Pixi>Pre 3>Galaxy S4 Mini>Galaxy Alpha>Galaxy S8
    ..........................................TouchPad............Surface Pro
    PalmOS-------------------webOS-------------------Android (just waiting for webOS to rise again!)
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