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Where does WebOS Ports and WebOS Internals stand?
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Old 02/25/2013, 09:10 PM   #1 (permalink)
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I care less about what LG does with WebOS. Even less what HP did. To me what matters is what WebOS Ports and WebOS Internals now plan to do? Are they still planning to support us who stick to WebOS on their primary phones and tablets?

They are the ones who have kept WebOS alive. HP was only trying hard to kill it or sell it.
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Old 02/25/2013, 09:16 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Yes read link below from the webos internals page and retweeted by them today:

"Don't Panic

WebOS Internals and other homebrew developers have your back. Don't Panic.
You will be able to use your webOS device for as long as you please, even if all support and infrastructure from HP disappears overnight.
We've got you covered."


source: WebOS Survival Kit - WebOS Internals
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Old 02/25/2013, 10:24 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Thanks for the quote and link, bluenote
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Old 02/26/2013, 01:22 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by cvendra View Post
I care less about what LG does with WebOS. Even less what HP did. To me what matters is what WebOS Ports and WebOS Internals now plan to do? Are they still planning to support us who stick to WebOS on their primary phones and tablets?

They are the ones who have kept WebOS alive. HP was only trying hard to kill it or sell it.
Y'know -- I just got to chime in here. It doesn't help that Derek can't contain all the acrimony in his articles (at the same time I understand/feel his pain/disappointment), but you guys need to know something about HP's efforts around webOS. No one can change the past and the incompetent actions of previous regimes (and I throw in Hurd for his apparent loss of ethics that started the nightmare some 2-3 years ago). But HP has done alot behind the scenes to help save and revive webOS. Truth be told, HP lost so much credibility with how it handled webOS and greatly suffered (I would argue still suffers), that it had no weight with anyone. People need to be clear that the new leadership is not the same as the previous three -- this current administration is pro-webOS -- but also busy trying to help HP out of a major identity-crisis that is bleeding blood right from the HP jugular. As a result, HP has had to take baby steps to get back to some sense of stability. When you burn your bridges with manufacturers, ARM, 3rd party developers, retail, potential clients set to buy a bunch of Touchpads, etc, you really don't have much you can say in public. And, so the folks that were left working on Enyo and webOS basically internalized their humiliation and continue to press on as they are directed. Trust me when I say people inside HP's leadership are committed to webOS and want to see it go beyond just another hobby-OS. So please don't be like the media -- who really have no clue -- and say HP tried to kill it or get rid of it. That is simply not the case. Today's HP, for all its lumbering, clumsy plodding in the mobile space is doing everything it can to recover from the self-inflicted head-shot. The development with LG is a positive one that has the potential to SAVE webOS and positioning it into true ubiquity. Nuff said.
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Old 02/26/2013, 01:56 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Y'know -- I just got to chime in here. It doesn't help that Derek can't contain all the acrimony in his articles (at the same time I understand/feel his pain/disappointment), but you guys need to know something about HP's efforts around webOS. No one can change the past and the incompetent actions of previous regimes (and I throw in Hurd for his apparent loss of ethics that started the nightmare some 2-3 years ago). But HP has done alot behind the scenes to help save and revive webOS. Truth be told, HP lost so much credibility with how it handled webOS and greatly suffered (I would argue still suffers), that it had no weight with anyone. People need to be clear that the new leadership is not the same as the previous three -- this current administration is pro-webOS -- but also busy trying to help HP out of a major identity-crisis that is bleeding blood right from the HP jugular. As a result, HP has had to take baby steps to get back to some sense of stability. When you burn your bridges with manufacturers, ARM, 3rd party developers, retail, potential clients set to buy a bunch of Touchpads, etc, you really don't have much you can say in public. And, so the folks that were left working on Enyo and webOS basically internalized their humiliation and continue to press on as they are directed. Trust me when I say people inside HP's leadership are committed to webOS and want to see it go beyond just another hobby-OS. So please don't be like the media -- who really have no clue -- and say HP tried to kill it or get rid of it. That is simply not the case. Today's HP, for all its lumbering, clumsy plodding in the mobile space is doing everything it can to recover from the self-inflicted head-shot. The development with LG is a positive one that has the potential to SAVE webOS and positioning it into true ubiquity. Nuff said.
Contrary to the efforts you mention, WebOS, which started as a phone OS is landing up as TV OS. If you say that was HP's effort, I would say they failed heavily.

I am still hanging on to WebOS due to the fact people like WebOS Ports or WebOS Internals and other homebrew developers are helping to keep it alive. I stopped expecting anything from HP long time back, but I still check Preware to see if anything new has come up from homebrew community.
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Old 02/26/2013, 07:48 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by polaris_silvertree View Post
Y'know -- I just got to chime in here. It doesn't help that Derek can't contain all the acrimony in his articles (at the same time I understand/feel his pain/disappointment), but you guys need to know something about HP's efforts around webOS. No one can change the past and the incompetent actions of previous regimes (and I throw in Hurd for his apparent loss of ethics that started the nightmare some 2-3 years ago). But HP has done alot behind the scenes to help save and revive webOS. Truth be told, HP lost so much credibility with how it handled webOS and greatly suffered (I would argue still suffers), that it had no weight with anyone. People need to be clear that the new leadership is not the same as the previous three -- this current administration is pro-webOS -- but also busy trying to help HP out of a major identity-crisis that is bleeding blood right from the HP jugular. As a result, HP has had to take baby steps to get back to some sense of stability. When you burn your bridges with manufacturers, ARM, 3rd party developers, retail, potential clients set to buy a bunch of Touchpads, etc, you really don't have much you can say in public. And, so the folks that were left working on Enyo and webOS basically internalized their humiliation and continue to press on as they are directed. Trust me when I say people inside HP's leadership are committed to webOS and want to see it go beyond just another hobby-OS. So please don't be like the media -- who really have no clue -- and say HP tried to kill it or get rid of it. That is simply not the case. Today's HP, for all its lumbering, clumsy plodding in the mobile space is doing everything it can to recover from the self-inflicted head-shot. The development with LG is a positive one that has the potential to SAVE webOS and positioning it into true ubiquity. Nuff said.
Sorry, but I'm not buying it. With all those bridges burned, nothing has stopped them to release a cheap (and competitive) android tablet, or having a few more in the pipeline and creating a mobility division without webOS on it. It's not about sayings, but about facts.

The fact is they got rid of webOS and the webOS team, and kept the patents and the server side products. To me that's a clean statement.

They want to see it go beyond just another hobby-OS but they're not moving a finger to make it happen. Opensourcing webOS was PR damage control, and keeping the team at a minimum was damage control. As soon as they've had the opportunity of getting rid of it they've done it, at any price. This sale, and the fact that transaction details have not been publicly announcement only probes it.
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Old 02/26/2013, 08:06 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Sorry, but I'm not buying it. With all those bridges burned, nothing has stopped them to release a cheap (and competitive) android tablet, or having a few more in the pipeline and creating a mobility division without webOS on it. It's not about sayings, but about facts.

The fact is they got rid of webOS and the webOS team, and kept the patents and the server side products. To me that's a clean statement.

They want to see it go beyond just another hobby-OS but they're not moving a finger to make it happen. Opensourcing webOS was PR damage control, and keeping the team at a minimum was damage control. As soon as they've had the opportunity of getting rid of it they've done it, at any price. This sale, and the fact that transaction details have not been publicly announcement only probes it.
Agreed. And HP said they wanted to do this (ie license webOS) and keep the server side products. And they executed and got it into the hands of another manufacturer that thinks it can make a commercial consumer facing product (s). And so webOS still has the possibility to blossom as we move slowly closer to a mobile webapp world.

And also at least we have the webos ports team working on ports for open source so there is some possibility we can continue to use it on phones (as well as webos internals and HP still supporting the profile and app catalog). I would agree with all your statements except that open source was not PR, HP thinks webOS can succeed in the future as some os more open than android and open source was a way to make this possible without HP having to invest.

So its not perfect but better than the bleakness we were looking at some months ago when it became clear that HP wants to see webOS succeed but does not want to invest intensive resources into it.
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Old 02/26/2013, 03:23 PM   #8 (permalink)
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The previous four posts are the reason I hang around here, despite the heartbreak that IS being a webOS fan.
Thoughtful, intelligent discussion even if I don't totally buy all sides of this argument.. Please keep it coming.

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Old 02/26/2013, 04:29 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by cvendra View Post
I care less about what LG does with WebOS. Even less what HP did. To me what matters is what WebOS Ports and WebOS Internals now plan to do? Are they still planning to support us who stick to WebOS on their primary phones and tablets?
Yes.

Both WebOS Internals and WebOS Ports (a project team which is part of WebOS Internals) remain independent of whoever happens to own webOS this week.

We have always been very careful never to depend upon the good graces of any company, and always ensure we can continue with our work regardless of who currently owns webOS and what their attitude is towards our group of independent homebrew developers.

-- Rod
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Old 02/26/2013, 06:28 PM   #10 (permalink)
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No one can change the past and the incompetent actions of previous regimes (and I throw in Hurd for his apparent loss of ethics that started the nightmare some 2-3 years ago).

But HP has done alot behind the scenes to help save and revive webOS. Truth be told, HP lost so much credibility with how it handled webOS and greatly suffered (I would argue still suffers), that it had no weight with anyone.

People need to be clear that the new leadership is not the same as the previous three -- this current administration is pro-webOS -- but also busy trying to help HP out of a major identity-crisis that is bleeding blood right from the HP jugular.

As a result, HP has had to take baby steps to get back to some sense of stability.
I think this post reflects much of what I believe is/was happening with HP, and the quaqmire associated with webOS.

Contrary to how many feel about HP, I believe the road back to mobility was better served through webOS. Granted, LG may prove me wrong, but it still doesn't change the dynamics between HP and their mobile plans for the future.

HP didn't get to be No. 1 in the computer hardware business by being part of the "middling" crowd. Their foray into Android strikes me as a "meh" opportunity. One that will be extremely difficult to ascend to the top - almost impossible if I was to bet. But at this point in time, Android seems like a safe and under the radar return to mobile computing.

HP trying the Microsoft route may be fortuitous in some distant future, but right now that platform seems to be a struggle for the MS-DOS boys. They are are no longer a bunch of geeks seeking approval of the Suits, the Men in Black who desperately needed a system to fit their Box of parts. What's different today, is that MS is jumping into the pool, instead of designing it and filling it up themselves. Again, for HP this OS seems like a mild attempt to re-enter the Mobile world.
.

The bigger picture here - when it comes to what takes precedence - is that one has to take into account the necessary repairs to HP, and a need to stabilize their financial position. Essentially, it boils down to money. Which for Shareholders, has been a fairly substantial loss - real or paper. For her part, Meg has managed to top Analyst's expectations, making the road a little easier to transverse.

As such, confidence in HP has (had) to return to a reasonable level, in order for webOS to have had any chance to "reboot" itself back into the mainstream of mobile computing. I'm still trying to understand the complexities of this LG-HP trade-off, but IMO, this could turn out to be a bigger f*#k-up by HP, then anything they did in shutting down webOS last year.

I certainly didn't expect any new hardware for webOS from HP - at this time. Anybody who was disappointed by the announcement (because it wasn't webOS involved), has to seriously question the understanding of business. Rebooting webOS - without a final product - had it been disasterous, would not only affect webOS, but it could've put a final nail into HP's coffin.

Being back from the dead is what counted most for HP. After that, the next goal is to regain their title. Android won't get them there, and Windows has too many questions. It's possible another platform can help HP ascend back to the throne, but seeing as they have it (or had it), why not reboot what you have.

.

From my perspective, webOS - a platform even in it's minimalist cave men persona - is still more civilized then anything out there.

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Old 02/27/2013, 01:28 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Sorry, but I'm not buying it. With all those bridges burned, nothing has stopped them to release a cheap (and competitive) android tablet, or having a few more in the pipeline and creating a mobility division without webOS on it. It's not about sayings, but about facts.

The fact is they got rid of webOS and the webOS team, and kept the patents and the server side products. To me that's a clean statement.

They want to see it go beyond just another hobby-OS but they're not moving a finger to make it happen. Opensourcing webOS was PR damage control, and keeping the team at a minimum was damage control. As soon as they've had the opportunity of getting rid of it they've done it, at any price. This sale, and the fact that transaction details have not been publicly announcement only probes it.
I understand the skepticism. I mean -- you are echoing the general sentiment (in fact the media is all over the place on what they think HP and LG did here) that is being publicized over this -- so there is some merit around "facts" versus "sayings"... But I respectfully disagree with your belief that they got rid of webOS. They did not -- they are licensing it to LG -- and yes they are selling SOME webOS talent to LG as part of that deal. LG (among others) has been rumored (even here at webOSnation) to have had real interest in webOS for some time now. The piece that HP is holding onto in terms of talent and active technology is the "cloud" portion of webOS (what you call the server side).

First let me say this -- most media outlets don't fully understand what webOS is... the whole design premise of what it was that was conceived back in the Palm days. IMHO, the only thing that really looks close to it (the whole stack) is BB10. FirefoxOS focuses on the end-user portion of webOS (that you and I are most familiar with). But, it can't shake a stick on anything else that I'd consider a part of webOS. Anyways, despite what people are saying -- if you read between the lines and if you read the fine print (today's articles seem to have a more refined understanding of what is going on), what has happened is that LG is the first webOS customer that HP was able to sign up and they will be a paying one at that. To ensure LG's success, they threw in the current mobility team to help LG pave the way for their smart devices (notice I didn't say TV's). LG in turn is committed to driving innovation initially in its Smart-TV market with webOS as well as helping in the further maturation of open webOS. No one is saying it, but you better bet your bottom-dollar that LG is also looking at this for "other" uses. And with them lagging behind Samsung, Huawei, HTC, and Apple in terms of innovation -- no one needs to say anything more.

I personally thought it was a great feat that HP released open webOS 1.0 (professional edition). I mean, let's face the facts -- when you decouple the OS from the hardware and start from scratch on the code -- there are some serious gaps in terms of software/drivers. So of course it can't just drop into your Pre 3 or Touchpad as is... But, they were doing stuff -- just nothing really tangible for you (and me). I know many here wanted HP to do more -- but have you been reading the news lately on HP's state of affairs. Really -- what else could they do? After laying off the webOS hardware team, many of your apps developers, and of course webOS talent leaving what at the time seemed like a sinking ship, there isn't much you can do. With all the billions of dollars they had to just write down as a loss (i.e. Autonomy, EDS, Palm), what did you think they were going to be able to tell the new leadership they were going to do now with webOS? I'm just calling it like I see it. Look, the Android Tablet play is more a reflection of how big HP is in the consumer space than it is about its loyalty to webOS. Windows 8 is flaming out in the consumer space and Android dominates the markets. In other words, there is more to HP's mobility interests than webOS (no surprise here). They are trying to penetrate the tablet market in multiple ways and NOT losing any traction for webOS in any way if you really think about it. Finally, let me just say that yes I thought HP could've done things differently right after the webOS catastrophe. Had HP been more astute and willing to eat a little crow, they could've reversed the damage -- but it didn't/couldn't in time. So here we are -- and all things considered now, I give HP a "golf clap" for starting to pull out of what looked like a death spiral... but more importantly, I am clapping "wildly" that the contingent of people left who are webOS at HP are doing what they are doing. LG is fortunate to have (some of) them. Time will tell what happens with webOS -- but as another person stated, it looks a heck of alot better than it did a couple of months ago. Hopefully someone can convince Derek the same.

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Old 02/27/2013, 01:57 AM   #12 (permalink)
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What is happening with graphic drivers? I understand this is more related to hardware vendors than to a current owner of open webOS, but without corporate support is it possible to overcome that problem?
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Old 02/27/2013, 03:12 AM   #13 (permalink)
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webOS ports and internals goal is what? Luna ce came out for the touchpad and then it seemed like the focus went on to open webos which doesn't run on anything without being assisted by a comp or work with an app catalouge. So realtime webOS users have been left high and dry. I understand it is done on the hobby level. I just wonder why the existing system was just blown off. I had a pre 3 and got tired of the bugs for a daily driver phone. I still have my touchpad but never would set a alarm to get up by on it. So when I hear we will take care of things no matter what I am skeptical... I really don't mean mean any disrespect. I work in the high voltage field either you have lights and heat or you don't. I don't understand this whole gray area thing you guys have been messing around in unless the goal was to be independent contractors for hp.
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Old 02/27/2013, 03:30 AM   #14 (permalink)
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webOS ports and internals goal is what? Luna ce came out for the touchpad and then it seemed like the focus went on to open webos which doesn't run on anything without being assisted by a comp or work with an app catalouge. So realtime webOS users have been left high and dry. I understand it is done on the hobby level. I just wonder why the existing system was just blown off. I had a pre 3 and got tired of the bugs for a daily driver phone. I still have my touchpad but never would set a alarm to get up by on it. So when I hear we will take care of things no matter what I am skeptical... I really don't mean mean any disrespect. I work in the high voltage field either you have lights and heat or you don't. I don't understand this whole gray area thing you guys have been messing around in unless the goal was to be independent contractors for hp.
Preware Enyo 2 port is being worked on as "homebrew" app catalog and a lot of work has been done already on it.

For the rest it's indeed run by volunteers so they have normal day jobs next to this and can only dedicate a limited amount of time to development. Progress is being made, slowly but steadily. As you can see on Schedules/Beta Feature Plan - WebOS-Ports a lot of things are in the works still.

I'm sure the team would welcome anyone who would be able to bring contributions to the project. Unfortunately my knowledge is limited with regards to low level kernel stuff. I'm trying to get my hands dirty with Enyo 2 but it's quite a steep learning curve so far.
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Old 02/27/2013, 03:44 AM   #15 (permalink)
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I could give you clean power to the servers....Stil don't make the alarm work right.. If I worked on webOS I would be ashamed that there is a bug in the alarm. How can you schedule a tv recording...I hoped they fixed it.
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Old 02/27/2013, 04:08 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Preware Enyo 2 port is being worked on as "homebrew" app catalog and a lot of work has been done already on it.

For the rest it's indeed run by volunteers so they have normal day jobs next to this and can only dedicate a limited amount of time to development. Progress is being made, slowly but steadily. As you can see on Schedules/Beta Feature Plan - WebOS-Ports a lot of things are in the works still.

I'm sure the team would welcome anyone who would be able to bring contributions to the project. Unfortunately my knowledge is limited with regards to low level kernel stuff. I'm trying to get my hands dirty with Enyo 2 but it's quite a steep learning curve so far.
Rod says they will support existing users but you are talking about open things Am I correct there?
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Old 02/27/2013, 04:32 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Rod says they will support existing users but you are talking about open things Am I correct there?
Both are volunteers, but I was mainly referring to Ports indeed.
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Old 02/27/2013, 06:50 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Rod says they will support existing users but you are talking about open things Am I correct there?
The ability to fix things on the phones is severely limited by the closed source nature of the binary parts of webOS.

LunaCE came about because the source for that specific part for that specific touch pad version was released. There is no source for the phone version, nor for any touch pad version earlier than 3.0.5.

We work with the things that we can work with. At the moment, that means keeping Preware and all the things in it working, and doing things with Open webOS.

Unfortunately, none of that is good news for webOS phone owners, but that's the reality of the situation.

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Old 02/27/2013, 06:53 AM   #19 (permalink)
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I could give you clean power to the servers....Stil don't make the alarm work right.. If I worked on webOS I would be ashamed that there is a bug in the alarm. How can you schedule a tv recording...I hoped they fixed it.
We all hoped that those with access to the source code needed to fix that issue (i.e. HP) would have fixed it. They didn't, and we can't cause we don't have access to that source code.

We do not feel ashamed about things we have no ability to change.

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Old 02/27/2013, 07:54 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Ok, so let's look what kind of WebOS affiliates we have here.

Group One:
So we have a few people who really do something for the community, namely the WebOS Interal folks. They work on openWebOS, they brought us some improvements for the existing WebOS and are basically spending a lot of unpayed time to make us as happy as it is possible with the limited means they have.

Group Two:
Then there are others, who are supporting by i.e. donations and moral boosts, telling those from group One, that they do a great job and that it is appreciated.

Group Three:
As we read above, there seems to be a group of people who do none of the kind, except enjoying the fruits of other people's labor and think that gives them the right to tell the people of group One to feel ashamed, that they don't deliver more...

The audacity of group Three escapes my worst imaginations. Sadly I have a feeling that a mindset like this gets more common. Sad, sad future ...
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