OS market too full for webOS?

[Buddy1969]

Originally Posted by rnld

It is beyond amazing that some believe the success of the iPad is due to advertising.

The iPad rode the wake of the iPhone. After the iPhone hype, Apple could have sold a hammer and a nail as new tech...
Best advertising is people showing off their new Apple product.

And advertisement is just a part of marketing...

[chalx]

Originally Posted by Buddy1969

The iPad rode the wake of the iPhone. After the iPhone hype, Apple could have sold a hammer and a nail as new tech...
Best advertising is people showing off their new Apple product.

And advertisement is just a part of marketing...

They could but they didn't. They created fantastic device and created whole new market. Apple set standard so high that even today others can't follow. Original Ipad is still one of best tablets with great performance.

[Buddy1969]

The iPad is and was a good product.
Having a good product is as much a part of marketing, as getting the pricing right, having the right distribution channels and getting the customer eager to buy the product.

The Touchpad as a hardware wasn't so bad as well (CM10 still runs fine on it). But neither the pricing nor the advertisement were proper.

All I tried to say in my posting is, that you are not handed a market share for free. You have to earn it. You have to MAKE place in the market for you.
Apple did that, when Palm, Microsoft and RIM were having a hold of the market.

[rnld]

WebOS phones were dying in the marketplace and running out of users when the Touchpad was released. The Touchpad was not building or locking into a successful product.

The launch advertising was strong.

[Buddy1969]

Originally Posted by rnld

...

The launch advertising was strong.

Maybe in the US. In Europe not so. At least not in the Germany and Austria where I watch TV and/or magazines and newspapers. And Germany was a target market for the Pre+ and Pre3. Austria, Switzerland and other countries weren't even supplied, even though the mobilephone-per-person ratio is quite high in those countries.

HP simply had no touch for the market.
Palm didn't either. At the start of the first decade of 2000 they were resting on their laurels and in the following years they were therefore wiped off the charts in many countries outside America (even by WinMobile in those days).

[redrum0036]

The foothold that both iOS and android have in my mind is too great. Wp8 could bring the competition simply from windows 8 eventually being in ,most homes

[Remy X]

Originally Posted by redrum0036

The foothold that both iOS and android have in my mind is too great. Wp8 could bring the competition simply from windows 8 eventually being in ,most homes

Well... Once people see Windows 8 for the turd it is, they usually downgrade to 7... so i'm not so sure about "most homes". When M$ takes away functionality and changes what used to "just work", that's not innovation...

So i wouldn't give Microsoft too much credit yet. Yes, right now they might be ahead of Blackberry, but they have shown that they can't grow and innovate in the phone arena without leaving a pile of broken and abandoned products (with no aftermarket support either). Customers are still wary, and Android has way more credibility at this point. Unix/Linux-based OSs have more homebrew support... so we'll see

[redrum0036]

Originally Posted by Remy X

Well... Once people see Windows 8 for the turd it is, they usually downgrade to 7... so i'm not so sure about "most homes". When M$ takes away functionality and changes what used to "just work", that's not innovation...

So i wouldn't give Microsoft too much credit yet. Yes, right now they might be ahead of Blackberry, but they have shown that they can't grow and innovate in the phone arena without leaving a pile of broken and abandoned products (with no aftermarket support either). Customers are still wary, and Android has way more credibility at this point. Unix/Linux-based OSs have more homebrew support... so we'll see

Yea I agree windows 8 is painful. My boss thought he was doing a good thing and purchased a new pc and took the windows 8 path...hasn't been good to say the least

[Preemptive]

I don't want to go off topic, but... well everybody else has a bit!

As usual, we all discuss what went wrong and suggest possibilities to rectify the situation, but few of us have any real power.

Firstly, the simple question of the OP has been answered many times over on this thread: The market is never too full for a quality product.

That doesn't mean webOS is going to succeed.

Derek Kessler's recent CES video seems to say it all - nothing appears to be happening. Even the rumours from gram seem... uninspiring. I imagine a bunch of people are tinkering somewhere, but to what end? I'm not saying a plan will result in success, but as they say, failure to plan...

I think there must be a plan somewhere - wouldn't it be great if the outline of it appeared in a gram press release?

It is not impossible to target a niche with a realistic and small scale business plan and end up making some profit. From that foot hold, growth is possible for a quality product, but realistically, a large amount of capital will be needed even for that. Who is going to do it? There is also the Linux type path where enthusiasts tinker for years until the project gets picked up by those who can monetise it, but is a mobile OS like a desktop/server OS? I think mobile specs are more varied than the PC spec. Perhaps when the mobile is genuinely a portable computer with peripherals for different contexts (this is I think is the Ubuntu plan) i.e it's your mobile/desktop/media centre core device. In this instance, the OS would have to adapt the UI to the context. Maybe this will never happen because dedicated, small, networked boxes are the answer or a home server with largely dumb terminals.

Anyhow, there needs to be a plan in order for webOS to succeed. It seems to me the list of possible planners looks like this:
1. HP/Palm
2. Gram (assuming they will be seperate)
3. WebOSInternals / Ports
4. Phoenix devices
5. Other independent webOS developers

From the comments above, it seems that HP are doing nothing - a shame as they are probably the only ones with any money!
Gram is either waiting on the HB community to get OWOS into shape (and possibly helping the effort) with a view to being to webOS what Redhat was/is to Linux - professional release with support.... or they're doing not much.
webOS_Internals is maintaining and patching the legacy code, ports is slowly putting OWOS onto a Galaxy Nexus.
Phoenix is... was it webOS as android app?
Other developers I mentioned as a possibility and I know there are other projects happening.

However, as far as I can tell (and I guess all the webOS news that is fit to print appears on this site eventually), there is no realistic plan to get webOS out there on a webOS phone. If any of the players listed have such a plan, here is no hint of it and not much indication that they are even talking to each other.

Blame, as ever, will fall at the door of HP, but if it is the case that they have kindly open-sourced webOS & washed their hands of it, the eye moves to Gram who have some funding. The rest are volunteers and it's unfair to ask or expect anything of them.

Gram may not have 'build a phone' money, but they have a paid staff and one product: OpenwebOS. OpenwebOS had a roadmap. Maybe a new one is due. It might omit commercially sensitive information, but would be a way to energise the community.

A promise of a commercial product for phone or tablet (both?), a plan for a working port, a reference hardware spec, a hope of manufacture (with a partner or subcontractor...?) That's a rough plan. Timings may be vague, but those in the community who can, might then ask, "where can I help?". Users might make buying decisions based on webOS compatability.

Well, it's just my opinion. I think someone (and gram is the obvious candidate) should be the 'Torvalds' of webOS and give the world the idea that it isn't dead yet.

[Buddy1969]

Originally Posted by Preemptive

...

I think there must be a plan somewhere - ...

One would have thought. After all, HP DID invest alot of money, first into buying the thing, then into turning it to OpenSource and now for creating a company.

But I don't see anything that remotely makes me believe, that there is some plan, some governance model, some faint strategy or whatever.
Ok, I am no HP or Gram insider, so if I don't see it, it doesn't mean that there is none.

BUT (and this is the big, showstopping "but")

There are all the probable companies that might be even faintly interested into putting WebOS on their devices ... I am fairly sure, they see as little as I do. And if they don't see any plan, any strategy and therefore any future to a product, what would be their motivation to put it on their hardware?
... not to speak of the developers we would direly need to water the desert, we call an AppCatalog ...

@HP and Gram: you might not have noticed yet: future needs to be shaped. If it is not, it just happens without you...

[k4ever]

http://mashable.com/2013/01/15/new-o...ms-smartphone/

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[Remy X]

Originally Posted by k4ever

http://mashable.com/2013/01/15/new-o...ms-smartphone/

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**quoted to make the link work**

[k4ever]

Originally Posted by Remy X

**quoted to make the link work**

It didn't work? Seems to work fine from Tapatalk HD on CM10 when I click the link. This is my first time posting from this app so I'm a little concerned.

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[Remy X]

Originally Posted by k4ever

It didn't work? Seems to work fine from Tapatalk HD on CM10 when I click the link. This is my first time posting from this app so I'm a little concerned.

Sent from my cm_tenderloin using Tapatalk HD

Many of the forum apps do something that makes the vBulletin forum back end spit out unconverted BBcode... usually happens when the server is busy

[k4ever]

Originally Posted by Remy X

Many of the forum apps do something that makes the vBulletin forum back end spit out unconverted BBcode... usually happens when the server is busy

Ugh! I hope this doesn't happen often. I like Tapatalk HD. Not as much as Communities, but it is definitely a step in the right direction. I plan on posting quite a few responses from this app. Can't have someone fixing my links every time.

Thanks!

I read the article this afternoon and felt that it would enhance this conversation.

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[ewl88]

Originally Posted by daexpression

a. As much as there are ports coming Nexus and Nexus 7..simply said it's still primarily for hackers/ geeks. It's not a mass release product. And the problem lies with HP/ Gram, expecting volunteers to get a working port and probably not putting their effort into it.

c. Point C. As much as they're continuously upgrading webos with new features...these are features primarily to get it up to capability to webos 3.0. Will it be on part with say Android 4.x? - I can safely say no. However I do think Openos has the cleanest and best UI even compared to 4.x android.

On the issue of drivers. There are Linux drivers (available from android). The fact is back to the issue of low level driver programming capabilities. I do not expect these to be available readily - but at least HP/Gram should have these people in the team to help say the OpenOS ports team to improve the drivers etc? No?

The mobile market is moving so fast...and in this current sprint - webos is far behind all the existing mobile OS with a Ubuntu nipping it's heels.

Solutions that I can see.
1. HP to release reference mobile devices for OEM to copy.
2. Gram to state clearly their upcoming programs/ efforts and timelines
3. At least the professional edition of Open OS to be ready to be ported into a standard device.
(all these must happen within the next six - 9 months.)

Only 1 point I have issue with- does android OS have much more than webOS? I'm running CM9 (eventually 10 when it stabilizes) and it runs smoothly on my TP. But android has nothing that interests me other than apps. Ice Cream sandwich is awkward and the best of android apps (going by Google appstore editor choices, Verge, engadget recommendations) are NOT impressive. When there's a webOS equivalent, I prefer the webOS one. Jellybean may be an improvement for android in terms of interface but it's just coming out for some android tablets now and not available for other android tabs. I'm not discounting the apis and background stuff that active development brings but the biggest advantages of android are active app development with robust selection and tight integration with Google apps or other big name companies like facebook, MS/Skype, Netflix. It's really not Android OS that shines. Apple has some unique integrated services like Siri and huge app selection but iOS is woefully static and limited. So the lack of key critical apps and integrated services is what is leaving webOS behind the market leaders rather than deficiencies in their respective OS.

[Rnp]

So the lack of key critical apps and integrated services is what is leaving webOS behind the market leaders rather than deficiencies in their respective OS.

And devices, my friend. And not exactly "new" devices, but lack of any devices in stores...


Best Regards...

[k4ever]

Originally Posted by ewl88

Only 1 point I have issue with- does android OS have much more than webOS? I'm running CM9 (eventually 10 when it stabilizes) and it runs smoothly on my TP. But android has nothing that interests me other than apps. Ice Cream sandwich is awkward and the best of android apps (going by Google appstore editor choices, Verge, engadget recommendations) are NOT impressive. When there's a webOS equivalent, I prefer the webOS one. Jellybean may be an improvement for android in terms of interface but it's just coming out for some android tablets now and not available for other android tabs. I'm not discounting the apis and background stuff that active development brings but the biggest advantages of android are active app development with robust selection and tight integration with Google apps or other big name companies like facebook, MS/Skype, Netflix. It's really not Android OS that shines. Apple has some unique integrated services like Siri and huge app selection but iOS is woefully static and limited. So the lack of key critical apps and integrated services is what is leaving webOS behind the market leaders rather than deficiencies in their respective OS.

I agree with everything you wrote. I love webOS as an OS because it is hands down the easiest and most elegant mobile OS to use. Period. Whether it is on a phone or on a tablet. However, webOS is not successful right now. We can argue for days all of the reasons why. In order for it to succeed, HP/Gr.am needs to give users the ability to do what they need/want to do on it. This means an up to date standards compliant browser with all of the most used plug ins and utilities, services similar to what Google/Apple offers, more useful and entertaining applications, and new improved versatile hardware.

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