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OS market too full for webOS?
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Old 01/04/2013, 05:02 PM   #41 (permalink)
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I'd like to see webOS merge with something else at one point. I believe eventually this is what will happen (not nececerily to webOS, but to it or other existing or future OS's). The code will forever be written, but to take down a giant like you say there has to be capability. I think there are MANY strong parts of several OS's, but also many lacking parts as well [...]
Merger = death.

We aren't in a strong enough of a position to dictate the rules, so in a case like this, we'll all get walked over. First up will be the Homebrew community. Sorry.

If you remember Microsoft, in the mid-'90s they've bought up software companies that catered to Mac OS, just to deprive Apple userbase of quality software. Hug of death. Buying so you can kill, and any useful IP is just a bonus.

What we need more is standardized blocks of technology, which interface with software and services... and having those as open source, with open specifications/standards. By that i mean Dalvik/ACL, Firefox-like WebAPI, various data connectors as a part of Synergy (virtual drives, email, calendar, twitter, etc, ad infinitum)

We already use WebKit (needs to be updated), already have Linux as the underlying layer, and those are open technologies that we can benefit from... there's Qt as well. We can adopt other common open technologies and keep going, rather than being squeezed out and thrown away by an oppressive corporate management.

Just my two cents
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Old 01/04/2013, 06:01 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I don't disagree with you at all...

Edit: reply to RemyX
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Old 01/04/2013, 06:11 PM   #43 (permalink)
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The manufacturer should be supporting the hardware/OS. The only thing the carriers should be concerned about is supporting their carrier specific apps and access to the radio hardware for tech support. Consumers are tired of the carrier installed apps on their phones anyway. Does anyone here still use any of them? I don't know of too many folks that call Sprint or Verizon when Android app stops working. Besides most of the dumb phones have different OSes on them and the carriers do/did just fine with those.

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Old 01/04/2013, 06:22 PM   #44 (permalink)
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The manufacturer should be supporting the hardware/OS. The only thing the carriers should be concerned about is supporting their carrier specific apps and access to the radio hardware for tech support. Consumers are tired of the carrier installed apps on their phones anyway. Does anyone here still use any of them? I don't know of too many folks that call Sprint or Verizon when Android app stops working. Besides most of the dumb phones have different OSes on them and the carriers do/did just fine with those.

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I agree with that, however Verizon is strongly biased towards Android, and that was already true when the Pre+ launched on their network. VZW has the best infrastructure in the country, so they feel they can throw their weight around and ally with Google (with its Motorola mobility division as well) for a long-term monopoly-strength relationship.

This even reflects on how they trained their salespeople. They did give webOS a chance with Pre+, Pre2 and were looking forward to Pre3, but the bias is still there. The do carry the iPhone, but the bias is still there, and they push Android harder and tell their staff to do the same. They will only back off when Android becomes the equivalent of stale bread (i.e. not cool)
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Old 01/04/2013, 08:38 PM   #45 (permalink)
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I don't think they are surviving now. I think they are slowly dying. They are tied to Microsoft Windows, which seems to be a dying OS right now. HP supposedly decided to kill webOS when Microsoft showed them Windows 8/RT. How is Windows 8 doing right now? Also, does anyone know the name of or seen advertisements for HP's new line of Windows 8 tablets? If we covered up the HP logo on one of them could anyone identify it in a line up?

HP's problem is that they are a follower now instead of a leader. They had the chance to lead with webOS but instead they chose to hang on to Microsoft's coat tails. I'm sure Microsoft showed ASUS and Samsung the same Windows 8 demo, yet the two of them chose to continue to make Android devices. ASUS is given Apple a run for its money with the Nexus 7. Samsung has distinguished itself from the pack and is now the Android leader. Their phones outsell iPones. Microsoft tried to challenge Google with Bing search and map services. Google didn't tremble like HP. They didn't give up and now most folks think Bing is a cruel joke. Hell, Apple couldn't even put a dent in Google's services. Google is the leader in mobile services right now and has the number 1 mobile OS.

HP had name recognition with the TouchPad and webOS. The TouchPad was number 2 in mindshare behind the iPad at one time. If HP were to announce the release of a TouchPad 2 with webOS 4.0 (or whatever the version number would be) it would light up every tech site. Heck, some college kid ported openwebOS to the Nexus 7 and it was on most of the tech sites I visited last week. That was just a port! HP could release a Windows 8 tablet right now and it wouldn't even make news. They actually led at something in the new tech world (tablets and phones) and they blew it to be just another low margin player for a dying platform.

We need HP to get off their behinds, quit denying the inevitable, and actually throw some real darn support behind their beloved OS!


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Hp is a follower now but it has company with other windows partners like Dell, Lenovo, Acer . They are all becoming irrevelant if they don't make good mobile devices. Many windows hardware partners lost the talent to design. There isn't much to design with PC desktops and laptops. Most of the components are the same between their competitors. The only differences are the cases. So it's not surprising talented hardware manufacturers like Samsung (now probably best hardware designers besides apple and successor to Sony's former great design chops) and HTC can outbuild windows partners like Dell and Windows.
After HP's horrendous euthanization of webOS, it has made a reasonable and attainable goal of opensourcing webOS and trying to earn its keep by customization of webOS/ building cloud services for paying customers through Gram. Maybe that'll work or not. Some of those devices may not be mobile devices but at least it'll may keep webOS alive as tvs, smart car os's or toasters.
I do think webos has a chance if it holds on and incorporates all great opensource technologies. I think the ecosystem and app market are very important now but will become less important with better web technologies. As a nondeveloper, I think enyo 2 is the right path. Make apps that run on any good mobile browser and you've fixed the lack of apps problem. That's if Enyo apps are truly crossplatform and function well like native apps. Also If you make a great browser for a current or future Open webOS ported device and it runs all the important websites I can on desktop/laptop browser then I really don't need apps. our current mobile os's may become more skins in the future. Want a webos ui, then use that. Like Android , then use their ui. That would be great reedom of choice.
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Old 01/04/2013, 11:07 PM   #46 (permalink)
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My personal hope is that every single os gets a market share that is profitable to them, I welcome all these companies and just hope people notice them. The more there is, the more choose for the customer which is good. Only problem with that is development for them, it would be difficult to produce an app for 8 or 9 (forgot tizen in original post) operating systems.
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Old 01/05/2013, 12:07 AM   #47 (permalink)
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..Only problem with that is development for them, it would be difficult to produce an app for 8 or 9 (forgot tizen in original post) operating systems.
This is why I balked at the folks who wanted separate "apps" for things that used to be presented on websites. Why not just redesign the websites for touch-screens and standards that all mobile web browsers could access? Most of those idiotic apps were designed to get around flaws in iOS and were not even needed on other platforms yet most of the folks who frequent here cried for them. Now we have companies crippling their websites so they won't work on mobile browsers to force you to use an app and it is the fault of all of you who cried for them instead of just using your browser in the first place. /end of sour grapes caused by the stupid app count game that some of you folks fell for..



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Old 01/05/2013, 08:38 AM   #48 (permalink)
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This is why I balked at the folks who wanted separate "apps" for things that used to be presented on websites. Why not just redesign the websites for touch-screens and standards that all mobile web browsers could access? Most of those idiotic apps were designed to get around flaws in iOS and were not even needed on other platforms yet most of the folks who frequent here cried for them. Now we have companies crippling their websites so they won't work on mobile browsers to force you to use an app and it is the fault of all of you who cried for them instead of just using your browser in the first place. /end of sour grapes caused by the stupid app count game that some of you folks fell for..



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Old 01/05/2013, 10:21 AM   #49 (permalink)
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don't hold back. this is a community we are here for you. tell us how you really feel ...

Ok. There were idiots here who complained about not having an app for websites that worked well in the TouchPad's browser. I can understanding wanting an app for something that didn't work at all, like Netflix, even though I would have just liked a Silverlight plugin for the browser. However, if the website worked well, why require an app? The goal of a tablet is to eventually replace a laptop and laptops don't require apps for website content.

Until HP decided not to continue updating/fixing issues with it, the TouchPad's browser was good. It defaulted to full desktop view instead of mobile view unlike almost all of Android's browsers. It had plugins like Flash to view the whole web unlike the original iPad's browser. I remember shortly after buying my TouchPad watching a friend try to read the news from a site (forget which one) that was not "┬€┬Łoptimized" for the iPad. It wasn't pretty. I was able to view the site just like it looked on the desktop.

Apple created the stupid app count phenomenon. When the iPhone was first introduced it was going up against some heavy weights like Windows Mobile 6 and Blackberry OS. Each of them had thousands of games and useful programs that a lot of folks didn't even know about. Most of those programs were for productivity. Apple also made the decision not to include Flash and a few other plugins in their mobile browser at a time when people were getting tired of the WAP browsers and looking for something similar to the desktop experience.

Apple had a multiple problems. One way to solve them was to concentrate their focus on apps that people needed. Another way was to build apps to replace the functionality on their crippled web browser. They launched a masterful advertising campaign assuring people that "there is an app for that". It really meant don't worry about lost functionality, we have an app to fix that. Instead people joking associated it to mean that no matter what your absurd need was, there was an app for that and other people took it literally. Apple also began counting each app that they had and telling the public to assure them that the iPhone had some apps. Problem was the public and wannabe tech reviewers didn't notice that Apple was also counting web site replacements as apps.

The iPhone was popular when its app count was closer to zero. People stood in line for the features on the phones, not the apps. News organizations and other organizations who had web sites that didn't work on the iPhone quickly made apps that did and advertised them to the point that it became fashionable. Even sites that worked perfectly well started to get in on the game making apps with useless features that are 1/2 of what the actual websites offer. Then those wannabe tech reviewers starting using the app count as a way to justify/not justify buying a phone.

We all played right into Apple's game. Now the tides have turned in the worst way as the media industry, who doesn't give a damn about its customers and only cares about maximizing profits, have figured out how to use these apps or lack of these apps to extract more money out of us. They are actually blocking their websites from use with mobile browsers and funneling customers to their apps. They are using the popularity of their services as leverage. Pretty soon the web as we used to know it won't exist anymore and the idiots who cried for an app icon to replace a simple website instead of requiring the OS to have a decent standard compliant browser only have themselves to blame.

I seriously hope that whatever set of OSes that survive in the coming years don't give in to the attempts to subvert our freedoms on the Internet just to have a crappy app.

/end of rather long winded rant...

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Old 01/05/2013, 11:57 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Is that supposed to be ironic?
No, just a rant.. There is irony in there but most of it is just pain...


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Old 01/05/2013, 03:37 PM   #51 (permalink)
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The bottom line is Palm had a very useful OS, although long in the tooth. The Treo line of phones were very popular.

WebOS got rid of everything that made Palm OS special and loved and tried a completely new approach aimed at nobody in particular.

It was a fatal mistake to base it all on gestures and swipe with no connection to the existing user base.

This is exactly why WebOS is over and there is a hacker base left limping along in fantasy land.

I was a long time Palm user and still use a WebOS phone, fyi.

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Old 01/06/2013, 09:46 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Ok. There were idiots here who complained about not having an app for websites that worked well in the TouchPad's browser.
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No, just a rant.. There is irony in there but most of it is just pain...


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She's referring to the delicious irony that you're using an app to visit a forum while complaining about, and I quote:

Quote:
"...idiots here who complained about not having an app for websites that worked well in the TouchPad's browser."
Since, well, this place displays just fine in a browser--especially the Touchpad browser--I'd say you just got called out.

Also, Silverlight, being a Microsoft technology, not only never was going to be ported to another mobile platform...it's being phased out completely through a long and silent death. The way Netflix delivers content to mobile devices doesn't involve Silverlight at all, but getting their attention enough to release their app on your platform just requires a hell of a lot more market share than 1%.

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Old 01/06/2013, 09:53 PM   #53 (permalink)
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[...]
Since, well, this place displays just fine in a browser--especially the Touchpad browser--I'd say you just got called out [...]
I however totally didn't get the irony, in part due to this place being a wreck on the Pre+/v.1.4 browser... maybe i should make a video of the UI bugs someday

The new user profile popups seem to make use of 2/3 of all bugs in that browser, and then the #anchors make the page snap back and forth long after the page has loaded (another bug, unavoidable)
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Old 01/07/2013, 05:22 AM   #54 (permalink)
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There's definitely space, as internationally smartphones are only just getting started - Sailfish is aiming at China, Firefox at Brazil, and India/Africa are currently awash with Nokia "Asha" phones that will soon cease to cut it. Also, manufacturers and carriers value competition so they aren't beholden to Google or Amazon. Hence there's yet another player emerging in Tizen (through Samsung).

To make it in mobile-land, though, you'll need fantastic hardware and serious support. It's only with a large audience (and - often - revenue opportunity) that many coders will want to write the all-important apps (that's why Sailfish is interesting, with possible out-of-the-box Android app compatibility being proposed). So I agree with the people who have written here that a "White Knight" is required, just to provide the required scale. My best bet is on LG, although it's an outside chance. If their new TV comes to market and runs WebOS well, there will be a good reason for them to want to launch WebOS phones and tablets to work as second screens and provide a seamless entertainment architecture for them to capture people's entire digital lives in the way Apple has been doing.

It's a long shot, but I think LG is the best chance this great OS has.
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Old 01/07/2013, 05:47 AM   #55 (permalink)
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They're relentless, and I hate them for it. Yet, I use their search page more than probably any other site ever......
So...stop! http://www.duckduckgo.com

Your post has made me think, though...what are the origins of the companies involved?

HP, Apple = hardware
Nokia = engineering
Ubuntu, Microsoft, Jolla = software
Google, Firefox = web
Blackberry = mobile

Does this have any impact on whether there is space for many flavours of expertise or is this irrelevant to users?
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Old 01/07/2013, 11:13 AM   #56 (permalink)
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She's referring to the delicious irony that you're using an app to visit a forum while complaining about, and I quote:



Since, well, this place displays just fine in a browser--especially the Touchpad browser--I'd say you just got called out.

Also, Silverlight, being a Microsoft technology, not only never was going to be ported to another mobile platform...it's being phased out completely through a long and silent death. The way Netflix delivers content to mobile devices doesn't involve Silverlight at all, but getting their attention enough to release their app on your platform just requires a hell of a lot more market share than 1%.
Ok, I get that part of the irony. However, what she doesn't see is the hundreds of views a week I make to the webOS Nation home page from the browser or the patches or apps that I download to my TouchPad from the forums through the browser. The Communities App lets me view the top stories on the forums faster and a lot of forums websites (to include this one) are not touch friendly. Fix those issues on the websites, no need for the app.

I will admit that an app has some minor usefullness. Case in point, my bank has an app for Android. There used to be one for webOS. I constantly use the app on Android for simple account transfers. I go to the bank's website on my TouchPad or on my computer to use all of the other services, like pay my bills. My bank would never dream of forcing all of its account holders to use the app for those services. Some of them are built into the app, but it is easier and more feature rich to use the website. If I had an hard choice between the two, I would chose the website and not the app. Funny thing is that the webOS "app" for my bank was just a redirect to the mobile website interface. It functioned just as well as the Android full fledge app begging the question why not just do the same on Android on any other platform?

On the subject of Netflix, what will they use as their standard on desktop websites once Silverlight is completely phased out? Will it be allowed to work from mobile web browsers or will Netflix force you to use an app? I also thought that GRAM was working with Netflix and Microsoft and that the new openwebOS browser would have Silverlight support?

--Just in case you are wondering, this was sent from Mozilla Firefox 17.0.1 on my Linux Mint 13 powered laptop. Since web browsers don't normally put a signature on their post, I thought I would add one to show the irony of me actually commenting on it from a full fledge desktop browser.
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Old 01/07/2013, 12:30 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Ok, I get that part of the irony. However, what she doesn't see is the hundreds of views a week I make to the webOS Nation home page from the browser or the patches or apps that I download to my TouchPad from the forums through the browser. The Communities App lets me view the top stories on the forums faster and a lot of forums websites (to include this one) are not touch friendly. Fix those issues on the websites, no need for the app.

I will admit that an app has some minor usefullness. Case in point, my bank has an app for Android. There used to be one for webOS. I constantly use the app on Android for simple account transfers. I go to the bank's website on my TouchPad or on my computer to use all of the other services, like pay my bills. My bank would never dream of forcing all of its account holders to use the app for those services. Some of them are built into the app, but it is easier and more feature rich to use the website. If I had an hard choice between the two, I would chose the website and not the app. Funny thing is that the webOS "app" for my bank was just a redirect to the mobile website interface. It functioned just as well as the Android full fledge app begging the question why not just do the same on Android on any other platform?

On the subject of Netflix, what will they use as their standard on desktop websites once Silverlight is completely phased out? Will it be allowed to work from mobile web browsers or will Netflix force you to use an app? I also thought that GRAM was working with Netflix and Microsoft and that the new openwebOS browser would have Silverlight support?

--Just in case you are wondering, this was sent from Mozilla Firefox 17.0.1 on my Linux Mint 13 powered laptop. Since web browsers don't normally put a signature on their post, I thought I would add one to show the irony of me actually commenting on it from a full fledge desktop browser.
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Old 01/07/2013, 04:12 PM   #58 (permalink)
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[...]
It's a long shot, but I think LG is the best chance this great OS has.
But they are not there... and we can't count on someone to save the platform when that someone clearly isn't doing anything for us.


As for origins of the companies, it only matters when the stale old management figures are involved, who are unable to think outside their area of expertise... Apotheker comes to mind with his prior involvement with the enterprise software co (SAP) and his desire to mold HP into another SAP by getting rid of all hardware divisions.

I say that because you can always buy engineering talent as long as you maintain a pleasant atmosphere and offer decent pay+benifits (opportunities to grow and advance also important). And if the upper management is flexible enough to understand and adapt to different markets and strategies, you have some chance at success.

As much as i don't like to think of it that way, engineers are replaceable (though quality is an issue in a "seller's market" circumstance), while management is a lot trickier to hire and replace... it's a different kind of talent. Large companies can afford both, but the question becomes more of "who is watching the watchers?" and "fish rots from the head".

@LizetteC,

This is what FirefoxOS WebAPI is getting at, although it won't quite match the quality of native apps until the spec is fully developed. With web apps being able to access hardware to a much greater degree, the line will certainly blur.
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Old 01/07/2013, 05:52 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Apps don't have to be used that often to be game-changers. Both of my banks allow me to deposit checks by capturing an image via their mobile app. That's a real added convenience for a mobile app that you download for free. I only use it a couple of times per month but I would never want give it up to use a web interface.

The innovations that are showing up in mobile apps, these days, such as camera-integration, language recognition, bluetooth accessories, etc. won't be making it to web apps anytime soon because they are usually integrated with a specific hardware feature of the device such as cameras, multiple microphones, etc.
Those capabilities/features can be added to the website and "turned on" as the website recognizes the device it is running on. It will just take the OS manufacturers getting together with the W3C and agreeing on a set of standards. Right now there is really no incentive for them to do so. The maker of number one platform that everyone is aiming for (iOS) only promotes open standards when it suits them and locks everything else down to offer a "better user experience".

Just to clarify something in case it was missed, my concern is with web services being treated as apps, not with native services. Like I said before, I thought the overall goal for a tablet is to replace a laptop. Web services are rarely restricted on laptops or desktops that are fully capable of running them. Why is there a restriction on tablets and mobile phones if the intent is not to enforce the use of a mundane app? Is there any reason why the capability to stream movies from Amazon Prime automatically stopped on the TouchPad's browser once an app became available for other mobile platforms? Why do we need to trick the user agent so that Hulu Plus will work? We demanded open standards for web sites so that all browsers will work after going through the "made for Internet Explorer" and "made for Netscape" debacle, only to get suckered into a "made for iOS" and "made for Android OS" debacle.


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Old 01/07/2013, 06:09 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Those capabilities/features can be added to the website and "turned on" as the website recognizes the device it is running on. It will just take the OS manufacturers getting together with the W3C and agreeing on a set of standards. Right now there is really no incentive for them to do so. The maker of number one platform that everyone is aiming for (iOS) only promotes open standards when it suits them and locks everything else down to offer a "better user experience" [...]
Two words:

Firefox WebAPI


Later on, once the standards will have been developed, other major browsers like Google's Chrome will adopt it, perhaps even Opera, but not Internet Explorer or the iOS fork of WebKit
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