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Old 11/23/2012, 05:29 PM   #1 (permalink)
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How about instead of using our money to figure out how to put a dead OS on a new phone, we use it to keep the phones we have now running the best we can.
Update, maintain and make new apps. Work out bugs on 2.1.2. Stuff like this.
I know when I get a new phone the last thing I'm going to do is put on it a dead OS.

Lets keep the Pixi, Pre, Veer and Pre 3 running smooth. Forget this open webOS.
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Old 11/23/2012, 05:50 PM   #2 (permalink)
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You are free to donate to whatever you wish. However, without the ability to run on fresh hardware, there is definitely a limited future for webOS.
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Old 11/23/2012, 05:52 PM   #3 (permalink)
 
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Well, that's one opinion... but if they stop moving forward it definitely does become a 'dead OS' as you say. The OS may be gone in it's previous life at HP, but we have yet to see what comes with the next step. It may have become more of a 'hacker OS', but it is certainly not dead yet.

The current incarnation is pretty stable and usable to me... yes there are some glitches and issues, but I'd much rather have work done to move it on to newer hardward/chipsets/etc.. than have it tweaked on older hardware that has a shorter and shorter shelf life with every day. There is only so long that anyone (anyone) will want to use a Pre, Pre2, or Pre3 when hardware advances improve so much every year. Stopping work on future versions of webOS to support quickly outdated hardware guarantees only one thing - no webOS in the future beyond these few old devices.

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Old 11/23/2012, 06:17 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I agree with both. I notice trying to update patches, fix broken apps etc. has stopped to work on porting to new phones. While that's fine and all I wish we could continue to work on what we have now
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Old 11/23/2012, 08:57 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Well, there's three directions we have to work in, at once...

1) Porting Open webOS to newer hardware, also recovering bricked devices (Veers bricked by firmware updates, TPs stuck in QHUSB-DLOAD mode)

2) R&D - figuring out how to make webOS better: that includes Luna CE, QtWebKit browser core and developing truly innovative apps like ShiftyAxel's WiFi network share. This benefits both old and new/future devices running a flavor of webOS.

3) Patching abandoned apps and older OS bugs

So we can't just pick one. I choose to put more effort towards the R&D side, but that's just me. And you know, those things also require different skill sets. You can't transplant a web developer like me to work on device drivers and low level kernel stuff, C code, etc... and on the same note, a guy who feels at home doing those things won't last a half hour trying to resolve CSS/DOM/Javascript bugs that i often spent hours dealing with.

You are right that money is a finite resource, but i think the best way is a level-headed and balanced approach. And to borrow a phrase from the communists, "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need" ...applied both to monetary donations and the varying skill sets in our community.

Yes, in the material world, communism is an absolute failure, but when you are talking about open source software, and the laws of physics no longer apply, and the phrase itself starts to make a whole lot more sense. When we give first, and take second, when software and patches can be copied an infinite number of times, when we work out of love and get something back because someone else cares, we get something that is worth more than the dollar amount that can be assigned to it by HP executives.

Read with a cynical mind, my words sound like an absolute pile of fluff, but we are each entitled to our own feelings and logic. I'm being realistic here, i have to eat too like everyone else, and my free time has limits. But i have my own priorities and tastes in life. I can't be a clone, watching TV while eating Cheetos and blithely using an Android phone with those greasy orange fingers. That's just not me. I may have an idealist corner in my mind, and a snob-like pickiness in regards to quality, but then i'm definitely not an elitist. I'm just one of the guys.

Take care everyone and hugs
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Old 11/23/2012, 09:43 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I'm watching out the corner of one eye what's going on with porting to new devices, also I love luna ce on my touchpad.

But there are many on these forums like myself who have brand new backup devices that could benefit from continued support from the homebrew community.

Another thing is I stream radio for hours on end at work an I am in no danger of getting a million dollar bill from sprint. And sometimes while I'm doing the streaming I'm also running my laptop with free tether. Don't know how that would work out on the other networks. Tmobile maybe.

So since open webos won't work on sprint I have a vested interest in having my pre2 going as good at it can for the foreseeable future

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Old 11/23/2012, 09:48 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Its really funny tho. Good news is hp released Open webos. Bad news it doesn't run on anything

By the way, anyone notice that auto correct don't work in the browser? It will correct a misspelled word, but if one taps on a suggestion nothing happens. That's something that could use some fixing right now

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Last edited by laingman; 11/23/2012 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 11/23/2012, 10:25 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by laingman View Post
Its really funny tho. Good news is hp released Open webos. Bad news it doesn't run on anything

By the way, anyone notice that auto correct don't work in the browser? It will correct a misspelled word, but if one taps on a suggestion nothing happens. That's something that could use some fixing right now

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Hmm, interesting. I never knew that. I'll have to check and see if it's the same on the Touchpad as on your Pre2. But spellcheck is already full of fail. It will flag words like "naïve", "façade" and "café", but when i go to add them to the custom dictionary, the words in the menu bubble are stripped of their accents, so there's no way to have it ignore the correctly accented word. If anyone knows where to find the spellcheck code, i'd love to see which part of it is binary and what is JS/DOM, which can be patched more easily.

It's another big thing on my list..
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Old 11/24/2012, 12:23 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Hi,

I got a Pre2 from ebay last year. I finally decided to upgrade from PalmOS for the following reasons:

1. The CES rave - "iphone beater" etc. I used to chuckle about the iphone not even having cut n paste
2. The apparently failing Palm had been bought by "deep pockets" HP.
3. The Classic app would enable a smooth upgrade - I could practically have my old device on the new one!

You know how this story goes. Between buying and receiving, HP made the shutdown announcement. My old palm phone had lasted years, so I gritted my teeth & downloaded Classic. Again, I couldn't buy a license - Motionapps directed me to HP and HP back to Motionapps!

OK, back on topic. I agree that openwebOS needs to move on if it isn't to die as the old hardware dies / gets broken / becomes fatally outmoded. But it seems obvious that it will become a niche, 'hacker' project if the user base declines - and finally gather dust despite it's promise. Need I mention Betamax, BeOS, etc? Superior products that failed. Apple itself was due to go under until the ipod...

Therefore, I think it is also important as stated by Remy X, to maintain current devices to slow the inevitable drain of the user base - many comment that they are going , but will return in the event of new hardware, but once they're gone...

Ecosystem. Apple built the ecosystem first with itunes. The first iphone was an ipod that made calls. That system now delivers apps too. Now apple is rich. Google basically owns search and related products - maps etc. that fit well with a mobile platform. They also open-sourced the OS and pulled together a consortium. Windows is on the majority of desktops and owns the dominant gaming platform. Blackberry may yet hold onto the enterprise market and those teenagers on BBM.. or maybe not.

What is the HP/Palm/webOS ecosystem? If nothing else, you need apps. Very few people are writing them, but though we should look forward, not back, there is a large legacy of PalmOS apps. According to Motionapps, HP/Palm have all the materials of Classic. They should make the license available because the cost will be negligible and will bring more usefulness to the platform - even if it's retro. Possibly Classic could be tweaked to give a more webOS feel to things. This might also encourage old palm app devs or those who like an old app to port to enyo. It may go nowhere, but at this point, I think HP/Gram need to clear out the cupboard and throw everything at the wall in the hope something sticks or at least keeps the patient alive log enough to recover!

Hardware. I realise that a DIY/indie/kickstarter phone is a big ask, but I think in the light of devices such as the raspberryPi, the possibility of some kind of device may be possible soon. If openwebOS goes to GNex because it's a reference device, perhaps Gram should specify a reference device that could be made from off the shelf parts. I recently saw a device called EVE hit it's target on kickstarter - it's a radio board for the Pi and the internet of things. Like the LTE-free Nexus4 (and ALL webOS devices to date), it might not be cutting edge, but would at least be as good as "last year's phone" - at least current. It might simply be a case of installing open radios in existing handsets - FrankenPre/GNex if you will

Enough rambling. My pie in the sky plan:
1. Yes, port to Gnex - hopefully an easier next step to Nexus 4 (maybe Xdadevelopers will do it for us!)

2. Yes, maintain current devices - or HP get the drivercode or licences so openwebOS will run on the current hardware (back porting).

3. Once openwebOS is usable on a device(s) the user base may grow slightly (ideally as more devs take an interest). This may in part solve the R&D problem and may encourage manufacturers to take a punt.

4. Release Classic as a paid app or a free app and open source it (the last bit may actually be a legal minefield). Ideally, get at least top quality and ideally, all old PalmOS apps in the catalog or Preware. Popular downloads could have ports funded bu HP/Gram or use a bounty system for ports or new apps. BTW, How about a bounty for Phonegap / ACL? HP should make an enyo app that will print to any wireless printer - or even via the mini USB port.

5. Gram offer up a reference spec of hardware upon which open webOS will run without modification - as Linux used to do (still does?). While this would likely be a large ugly box in practice, It might encourage manufacturers to take an off-the shelf system with an open, quality OS and make a better box, buy the LTE license (or whatever) and submit some improvements to the code. Oh, yeah, all future HP devices should have an open boot loader (you can lock it for windows!) and spec that runs webOS - it's called an insurance policy and potential gold mine (however unlikely that currently seems).

You can all start to shoot me down now. I don't really know what I'm talking about. Is there even such a thing as an open mobile phone radio? Palm Apps are only a stop gap - still no real eco-system.

Is that an idea? webOS synergy as the hub in an internet of things? Could that be a USP? The remote control/monitor of ALL?
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Old 11/24/2012, 06:20 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by PreJim View Post
How about instead of using our money to figure out how to put a dead OS on a new phone, we use it to keep the phones we have now running the best we can.
Update, maintain and make new apps. Work out bugs on 2.1.2. Stuff like this.
I know when I get a new phone the last thing I'm going to do is put on it a dead OS.

Lets keep the Pixi, Pre, Veer and Pre 3 running smooth. Forget this open webOS.
touchpad/open webos is well, open to play with, devs can do as they please, vanilla webos 2x and 3x is closed, they can't make any indepth meaningful changes making a serious attempt at legacy hardware near impossible beyond what we have now, minor or small patchess/fixes etc.
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Old 11/24/2012, 09:23 AM   #11 (permalink)
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touchpad/open webos is well, open to play with, devs can do as they please, vanilla webos 2x and 3x is closed, they can't make any indepth meaningful changes making a serious attempt at legacy hardware near impossible beyond what we have now, minor or small patchess/fixes etc.
How much of legacy WebOS needs to remain closed source? A few proprietary drivers which must conceal valuable (ha) trade secrets? Or are they keeping the bulk closed because opening it up would allow a few hackers to provide serious competition to anything Gram plans to release?
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Old 11/24/2012, 11:13 AM   #12 (permalink)
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There are several bits of webOS that will probably not be open sourced, simply due to HP not owning them outright. Components that I can think of right off hand, are things that involve the proprietary hardware, the spell check system, the voice dialing .. Skype.. Flash ..

There are probably others, those are just ones that I know of right off hand.

There are also other components that are being significantly changed and improved upon, even as I write this - such as the already stated efforts to upgrade to using Qt5, WebKit2, a completely seperate pluggable keyboard module, significant changes to the rendering methods, and more.
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Old 11/24/2012, 11:30 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Doesn't spell check use Hunspell?
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Old 11/24/2012, 12:08 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Legacy used xt9, Open webOS uses Hunspell indeed. So legacy is not open source :-(

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Old 11/24/2012, 07:46 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Thanks for the donation link eblade
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Old 11/24/2012, 11:34 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Legacy used xt9, Open webOS uses Hunspell indeed. So legacy is not open source :-(

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Spell check isn't even functional in Open at the moment, but yes, there is a module there for it.
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Old 11/25/2012, 02:43 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I would guess that HP has open-sourced all it currently can. In other words, all that they own or can re-engineer without breaching licenses. This assumption is logical as they no doubt had to pay good sums to engineers for a significant period to do this - which would be pointless if they assumed the OS was dead. But as a webOS user I know this assumption may be optimistic!

My take on maintenance of legacy hardware is that, yes homebrew patches are the way to go, but where possible, it would be a good pr move by HP/Gram to roll up any handy bug fixes or functionality from these efforts and development work with open-sourced legacy code (or compatible new code from openwebOS) into version updates for existing devices - where that code can work with the legacy (proprietary?) drivers. This could ultimately amount to a back port of openwebOS (again with driver tweaks) to the old devices.

However I think we will have to accept that even if such events occur, they will have to be a happy side-effect of the main openwebOS development and deployment on 'current' or even new, purpose built hardware and at this point, the only real business case for HP/Gram to put in the 'repackaging' effort on this would be again, to MAINTAIN THE USER BASE! As time and again we have seen that development, apps, media, carriers, stores, etc. will all support what's popular (i.e. user base) over what's the best.

The current user base may just be enough of a toe-hold to climb from. An OS without users is a waste of everybody's time.
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Old 11/25/2012, 04:50 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I would guess that HP has open-sourced all it currently can. In other words, all that they own or can re-engineer without breaching licenses. This assumption is logical as they no doubt had to pay good sums to engineers for a significant period to do this - which would be pointless if they assumed the OS was dead. But as a webOS user I know this assumption may be optimistic!

My take on maintenance of legacy hardware is that, yes homebrew patches are the way to go, but where possible, it would be a good pr move by HP/Gram to roll up any handy bug fixes or functionality from these efforts and development work with open-sourced legacy code (or compatible new code from openwebOS) into version updates for existing devices - where that code can work with the legacy (proprietary?) drivers. This could ultimately amount to a back port of openwebOS (again with driver tweaks) to the old devices.

However I think we will have to accept that even if such events occur, they will have to be a happy side-effect of the main openwebOS development and deployment on 'current' or even new, purpose built hardware and at this point, the only real business case for HP/Gram to put in the 'repackaging' effort on this would be again, to MAINTAIN THE USER BASE! As time and again we have seen that development, apps, media, carriers, stores, etc. will all support what's popular (i.e. user base) over what's the best.

The current user base may just be enough of a toe-hold to climb from. An OS without users is a waste of everybody's time.
Agreed. Why ignore the current users. They are the ones most likely to buy into what comes next just like probly the majority of pre owner were coming from old palm Os devices.

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Old 11/25/2012, 05:03 PM   #19 (permalink)
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My old devices still work. I would never port Open WebOS to them. It is frustrating with the lack to zero updates to the OS and apps (mostly to the browser that seems to be getting worse with each passing week), but it would be even more frustrating porting a bug ridden open OS to them.

Eventhough I admit it sucks, I have settled on the fact my Pre2 and TP will have no improvements to their installed OS. I have made a donation in the past, but with money being tight, any more money coming out of my pocket will probably be put toward another plateform. As someone else already mentioned, donate to who u wish.

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Old 11/25/2012, 05:16 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Like I said before open webos ports will not benefit everyone being gsm only. There are plenty of us who like our carrier and didn't even switch to get a pre3

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