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  1. #81  
    Lets get ready to rumble (quote from some announcer in wrestling)....

    In this corner Rwhitby as the guy who started webOSInternals, has been in HP/Palm discussions etc...

    In this corner Vistaus joined Sep 2011, and wants to duke it out.

    Can't we all just get along (quoted from some guy who got beat up)

    This is getting good I popped some popcorn, get your popcorn...

    Peanuts get your peanuts...

    Ok guys lets relax take a breath...

    I doubt anything from anyone until it happens...

    Lets let HP/Palm move and release something...
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by John Steffes View Post
    In this corner Rwhitby as the guy who started webOSInternals, has been in HP/Palm discussions etc...
    Rod has seriously been the perfect straight man throughout all of this; I can't think of a single person that's been more professional and forthcoming (when the time has been right, of course) about webOS Internals' intentions, knowledge, machinations, collaborations, and projects.
  3. #83  
    its clear that vistaus has a bee in his bonnet about ares2 and rightly or wrongly (wrongly in my opinion) is assuming that because he feels HP's commitments on ares (which I don't think were ever clearly defined in the openwebos schedule) are not being fulfilled then this means the openwebos september target is at risk.

    for the record i fundamentally disagree with this assertion and thats really the last thing I'll say on the topic.
    Touchpad 4G, Pre3
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by steven_farkas View Post
    Seriously, I admire your optimism and passion but none of what you say is based in any reality. You mention microsoft as a model with their surface tablet. MS has is in a completely different business - they have been in the mobile business (to varyijng degrees of success) for years, HP only dabbled here and their track record is sketchy.

    Since the cancelling of webos hardware HP has never made any comment about getting back in the phone business. There was an offhand comment from Meg early on about possible tablets but even that was nothing concrete. Whether we like it or not (and you clearly dont) openwebos is a face saving exercise for HP - shows they are still making commitments to the platform (albeit very limited) by spending a minimum of cash.

    HP have already lost millions on webos (much of it down to their own poor decision making) but if you expect them to simply start throwing money on marketing and putting together a team to engage with other OEM's to sell and promote openwebos you are dreaming. I'm sorry to say, but this will never happen.
    ... So, the fact that HP was specifically hiring salespeople for the webOS staff, about a month or so ago, means exactly what?
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  5. #85  
    Wooo boy, this is gonna be a long one with proper quotations. Didn't realize this thread was quite so long when I made my reply above this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by PalmPixi_User23 View Post
    Could they bring iCloud to WebOS, Voice Control(Ala Siri), UI speed improvements, enhanced multitasking capability, Wifi Sync, more API for developers and ultimately a better browser with Flash 11 compatibility ?
    And About HP loosing millions of dollars that's a bunch of boloney, that I'm not going to believe even if Mrs. Whitman got on hers knees and told me "I Swear to God". The marketing that they did for WebOS(poorly done) only cost them a few millions that probably won't even reach 100 million dollars in total. In my opinion, the most millions they probably poorly invested into any kind of marketing(for WebOS) was those silly commercial hiring actors and the boxer( Manny Pacquiao) to tout a TouchPad on their faces to say a few words on TV. If anyone calls that marketing that pretty much of a stretch(seriously), I wouldn't even know what to call that mess that HP did when marketing WebOS.
    I guess you fail to understand, that when HP took a 2 BILLION dollar write down, that means that they directly and immediately lost value of 2 billion dollars. That was the value of scrapping the webOS hardware division.

    Quote Originally Posted by dignitary View Post
    1. Flash 11 Compatibility: This would require HP themselves to port Flash 11 to webOS, since Adobe abandoned mobile Flash about 6-8 months ago already. Chrome for Android (the new default Android 4.1 browser) doesn't even support Flash anymore, nor does iOS (obviously). Pointless given that the creator of Flash themselves doesn't even want it on mobile, isn't it? It really is time for people to let go of this idea once and for all: Flash is dead on mobile, and HTML5 is the future. The time and resource investment spent porting a dead plugin to a barely-breathing platform just isn't worth it.
    2. Better Browser in General: For the love of all that is good, I hope that the core browser (presumably Isis) continues to keep up with modern Webkit instead of the ancient (and hardly competitive) Webkit versions they've used up through webOS 3.x. It's just painful to see its HTML5 Test score rank so pitifully for devices that have long claimed to be leveraging the bleeding edge of modern web development. If Open webOS can't keep its browser current, it will die a very hasty death when neither web developers nor app developers will give it a second thought.
    Adobe themselves is no longer doing the porting to any non-PC platforms. That doesn't mean it's DOA, it just means that they aren't doing the work. Anyone who has a source code license for Flash should be quite capable of doing it. (I have absolutely no idea who that would include) You won't see Flash disappearing off mobile as an important area, until Flash disappears off desktop - and that is likely at the very least a handful of years away still, assuming that it ever will happen.

    Isis is being kept up to date. A former HP-Palm employee had recently posted something on his blog, about how "using WebKit was a brilliant idea. Forking WebKit so you couldn't use the community improvements was complete stupidity". (I use quotes there, but i'm paraphrasing it from memory)

    Last time I looked at the more up-to-date branch of Isis, it was approximately 2000 commits behind, which at the rate of commits over the prior few days, meant that it was between 7 and 12 days behind the main tree. I can't comment on what was actually in all of that, since I didn't really examine it, and the codebase is entirely too huge for me to get wrapped up in, but I hope it also includes all the experimental stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by Vistaus View Post
    Or the devices will come slightly after the first release of OpenWebOS. Btw, how do you know they're on track for September? They're not even on schedule right now so who knows if they're gonna make the deadline?
    They are completely on schedule, even after surprise losing several people. They've also been hiring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vistaus View Post
    They didn't release the final version of Ares2, which was bound for... April or May. They only released some test version you could run locally, but they promised it would be hosted just like Ares1 for April or May. Since they still haven't done that, I consider it missed as they failed to live up to that objective.
    You may consider it that, but it's just not true. They said they would give us Ares2. Which they did.

    As for the statement:
    "Moving forward to well-documented mobile devices with
    readily available hardware drivers using the Open webOS 1.0 release."

    Since I thought webOS Internals, but more on Cynanogenmod have reverse engineered the drivers of the Pre 3, we have documented drivers of the Pre 3 and therefore the Pre 3 is a target, according to your own statement.

    And apart from that, you also seem to have said that even software-wise everything is there for the Pre 3: Respect for the work, but why do we have to wait for devices?
    The Pre 3 is neither well-documented nor has readily available hardware drivers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vistaus View Post
    Well, since you are part of webOS Ports, that statement is yours. In fact, that statement is made on the front page of the webOS Ports wiki.

    As far as the drivers go, here you go: https://github.com/codecrumb/webos-l...master/drivers

    And if you miss anything, the Sony Arc uses a lot of the same h/w and drivers and those are here: [DEV] Official Kernel Sources & Ramdisk for Xperia 2011 devices [posted at GITHUB] - xda-developers
    Anyone can go grab the kernel sources, and patch it with the patches on opensource.palm.com . That does not necessarily include everything. From what Rod has said in this thread, it sounds like there are several drivers that are shipped in binary only form, and god only knows if we'll either end up with some kind of buildable source to that, or if there will be a Nyx layer that will connect to them, or what.
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    GO OPEN WEBOS!
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  6. #86  
    First off: that lying part was sarcasm. Didn't mean to offend anyone. I'm sorry if I did.

    Secondly: what does a forum join date say about me? The fact that I joined in Sept 2011 doesn't tell about my experience from before that date. But yeahm appereantly no one cares about that as the forums join date seems the most important.

    @eblade: Also read the part about the Arc drivers, kthx.
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    If you want to narrow it down to the Touchpad, it has now been in the hands of people for a year and where is the word of mouth?
    problem is, who'd word of mouth a device not in production? trust me, I'd like to spread the good vibes but no matter how much i like the OS, only a fool would reccomend an out of production device to a friend/family member.

    its down to the "what if" issue, it might/would have had at least a chance had leo not fudged everything up, my point was that 1 month was nowhere near a chance for the touchpad to gain any kind of momentum or word of mouth following, instead the word of mouth spiel that spread around wasnt "go check out webOS/the touchpad" instead it was "go get a cheap cm7 android device and rob webOS users/devs of their only source of hardware".

    was the ipad1 an app haven, blazing success and bugfree experience in 1 month?
  8. i2y4n's Avatar
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    #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by steven_farkas View Post
    its clear that vistaus has a bee in his bonnet about ares2 and rightly or wrongly (wrongly in my opinion) is assuming that because he feels HP's commitments on ares (which I don't think were ever clearly defined in the openwebos schedule) are not being fulfilled then this means the openwebos september target is at risk.

    for the record i fundamentally disagree with this assertion and thats really the last thing I'll say on the topic.
    I have seen a webOS developer, employed by HP, (I don't remember who, maybe Enda) state that because of the recent Enyo team departures they are behind schedule on Ares 2. So in that respect he is correct in saying that HP did not meet all deadlines.
    Last edited by i2y4n; 07/20/2012 at 08:30 PM. Reason: Spelling error
    Vistaus likes this.
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by i2y4n View Post
    I have seen a webOS developer, employed by HP, (I don't remember who, maybe Enda) state that because of the recent Enyo team departures they are behind schedule on Ares 2. So in that respect he is correct in saying that HP did not met all deadlines.
    There never was a deadline set for Ares 2 regardless. (other than for what they have already given which was deliver Ares 2)

    Honestly don't know how they could be "behind", maybe behind where they had hoped to be, but no deadline missed because none was ever set.

    I would love to actually see this quote where someone from Palm said they were behind on Ares 2.
    I love physical keyboards... but there is two devices that would make me consider a slab, one is something running a full version of Open webOS. The other is an iPhone!!!! HA HA just kidding (about the iPhone that is)...
  10. #90  
    People seem to not realise that Ares is a host-based development environment for developing Enyo 2 apps. Part of the Enyo project, which is quite separate and distinct from the on-device Open webOS project.

    It's like people are trying to say Windows 8 is late because the Office 2013 development tools are not released yet...

    -- Rod
  11. i2y4n's Avatar
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    #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by OldSkoolVWLover View Post
    There never was a deadline set for Ares 2 regardless. (other than for what they have already given which was deliver Ares 2)

    Honestly don't know how they could be "behind", maybe behind where they had hoped to be, but no deadline missed because none was ever set.

    I would love to actually see this quote where someone from Palm said they were behind on Ares 2.
    I would love to show you the quote but I don't save article links in the hopes of using them as a source in the future. You can either believe me, ask Enda McGrath about it, like I said I think he was the one that said Ares 2 was behind schedule (Keep in mind that was not a public schedule like the vague road map), or you can try and find the article yourself. I'm much too busy to play scavenger hunt on the web.

    I don't know what else Ares 2 needs before developers can use it but I took the comment to mean that they would have liked to have Ares 2 further along to actually being deployed for use.
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    #92  
    I should have post this:

    http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-...g-company.html

    onto this thread...

    Maybe moderators can blend these two..
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    People seem to not realise that Ares is a host-based development environment for developing Enyo 2 apps. Part of the Enyo project, which is quite separate and distinct from the on-device Open webOS project.

    It's like people are trying to say Windows 8 is late because the Office 2013 development tools are not released yet...

    -- Rod
    Then why is Ares2 listed on the openWebOS roadmap?
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by Vistaus View Post
    Then why is Ares2 listed on the openWebOS roadmap?
    For the same reason Enyo is. It's a related project.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  15.    #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by dignitary View Post
    1. iCloud: Possible, I suppose. I'd pin this on being a community-based contribution, honestly.
    Answer: Agree its quite possible for HP to achieve, specially looking into the company efforts on cloud storage services and the big investment that the company seems to be placing to provide a secure place into storage much like Apple is playing around to do with their iCloud services for their Apple devices. So, its possible for HP to make something like this for WebOS that only depends if those stupid knuckle heads of HP has any sense of direction for the WebOS platform for future developments.
    Quote Originally Posted by dignitary View Post
    2. Voice Control: Currently webOS' Voice Control is nowhere even close to Siri--it's like comparing a kindergartener to a PhD--and Google has an entire division working on their own version in Android 4.1. Incredibly unlikely given the necessary investment, and I don't think people understand just how much investment of time and people has to go into such a system, much less making it good enough for everyday use. If the OpenMobile ACL is ever released, there are some decent, well-funded attempts in Google Play worth checking out--but nowhere on the level of Siri or Google's home-grown version. Keep in mind, even Apple had to buy an entire company to get Siri.



    Answer: While we all know that WebOS lacks any sort of voice control functionality that could match anything like Siri. But we have voice dialing that works great with the OS, if the WebOS team could focus upon that functionality and expanded into something more than the other competitors it would be great for WebOS. The big players are getting themselves with bringing voice control into their platforms, even more reasons for WebOS not to fall behind the competitor than are always innovating and moving forward. Google, then Apple and Microsoft are all moving into that voice control interface for their OSes why not WebOS ?





    Even RIM started doing something like Siri for their blackberry ten platform, which even causes for the WebOs team some kind of pressure to remain this dying old platform relevant from the other competitors. Especially if HP plans to move this OS forward into the open source, they should start thinking bringing themselves up to date with this old WebOS that everyday remains further and further behind seems to be falling back into mobile technology.

    Quote Originally Posted by dignitary View Post
    4. Enhanced Multitasking: Like what? There's only so far you can go with this before it becomes a ironically becomes a user experience nightmare. webOS always hit the sweet spot for this, and complicating it with dozens of different ways of pinching, swiping, and zooming to do everything under the sun will turn casual users away in a heartbeat when some action they didn't mean to make manages to clear all their cards or does something they didn't intend to. Fine line.



    Answer: There’s several ways that WebOS could innovate their multitasking abilities without cluttering and confusing casual users of this nice OS. The swiping gesture to bring the multiple card interface was nice, but swiping each time to get to whatever card you were previously using is not that intuitive anymore. I always suggested something like Apple did with their Mac OS “Mission Control” which to me works smoothly and it lets you see all the open windows at once without any fuss or mess. Two swipes upwards just the same thing you do to bring yourself to card-view would be nice to do with WebOS.

    Quote Originally Posted by dignitary View Post
    5. Wi-Fi Sync: And sync with what popular desktop software people can easily obtain? Possible, I suppose, given even more investment HP won't throw at it. And don't even say iTunes, because that's just not gonna happen; older webOS vets like myself remember what happened when Palm tried directly syncing with iTunes back in the day, and it wasn't pretty when Apple struck back. You'd need to build a multi-platform desktop client to handle this, and HP Play just wasn't up to the task even in rough form.



    Answer: One of the things that WebOS always lacked was a syncing client for your media that could easily transfer things from computer to mobile device. I think that the WebOS team was aiming for such goal with their HP Play program, but ultimately ended up been a failure to due to HP fault and incompetence. I heard of a post of GGMan which made a discovery that led him to believe that HP was going to bring some sort of similar iTunes functionally for the WebOS with their client of HP Play. There was a wifi-sync button that was found with the HP Play application but it said about an error of not connecting with the servers. Let’s hope that WebOS brings it back and ultimately decides to catch-up with the competitors if they want WebOS to stay relevant to their other competing OSes.

    Quote Originally Posted by dignitary View Post
    6. Flash 11 Compatibility: This would require HP themselves to port Flash 11 to webOS, since Adobe abandoned mobile Flash about 6-8 months ago already. Chrome for Android (the new default Android 4.1 browser) doesn't even support Flash anymore, nor does iOS (obviously). Pointless given that the creator of Flash themselves doesn't even want it on mobile, isn't it? It really is time for people to let go of this idea once and for all: Flash is dead on mobile, and HTML5 is the future. The time and resource investment spent porting a dead plugin to a barely-breathing platform just isn't worth it.



    Answer: Well, to some if not worth but for many like myself that thinks that flash player for mobiles device is still relevant to many people that like to have flash compatibility with their mobile devices. I think that if WebOS team spent a few efforts of porting the plug-ins necessary for the Flash 11 it would be great move for the WebOS platform. Blackberry still uses it and some parts of Google Android remains with the flash player. Because if WebOS team decides to eliminate Flash when going full open source, they should have a plan to have people browse and watch YouTube videos and other parts of the web. While many people think that HTLM5 is the future, its still very small part of the web while Flash despite people hatred still remains a much important part of the internet. Crossing my fingers that WebOS team managed to port Flash 11 for the WebOS platform, because its good to have choices in a tablet and mobile devices.
    Owner of an HP TouchPad (32GB) and a brand new Palm Pre 3 (16GB) for VZ wireless.
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  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by geekpeter View Post

    was the ipad1 an app haven, blazing success and bugfree experience in 1 month?
    The Ipad 1 went on sale April 3, 2010 only at Apple stores as wifi only.

    300,000 iPads were sold on their first day of availability. By May 3, 2010, Apple had sold a million iPads. This was in half the time it took Apple to sell the same number of original iPhones.

    Every app worked in both portrait and landscape mode. iPad ran almost all of the over 140,000 apps on the App Store, including apps already purchased for your own iPhone or iPod touch.
  17. #97  
    Mission Control? Come on, it works smooth yes, but it's not like Apple invented that. Compiz on Linux has had mission control for many years.
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    The Ipad 1 went on sale April 3, 2010 only at Apple stores as wifi only.

    300,000 iPads were sold on their first day of availability. By May 3, 2010, Apple had sold a million iPads. This was in half the time it took Apple to sell the same number of original iPhones.

    Every app worked in both portrait and landscape mode. iPad ran almost all of the over 140,000 apps on the App Store, including apps already purchased for your own iPhone or iPod touch.
    ... and the iPad uses the same "phone emulator" sort of thing that the TouchPad has, for non tablet designed apps, which although is a slightly better environment than the webOS version of said "emulator", it's still just terrible to run apps in, and has brought a large number of iPad apps into existence. Unfortunately, the devs didn't get that momentum on our end. (it could be because although the iPad "emulator" has more features, such as a 2x Zoom mode, the TouchPad actually does it "better", in that the apps are just generally more usable..)
    Author:
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    (1:39:33 PM) halfhalo: Android multitasking is like sticking your fingers into a blender
    GO OPEN WEBOS!
    People asked me for a donate link for my non-catalog work, so here you are:
  19.    #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by steven_farkas View Post
    I love how you throw around numbers like 100 million dollars like its nothing. Why should we expect HP to throw 100 million dollars at marketing openwebos when the return is likely to be nowhere near that? Would you bet your mortgage on a 500-1 shot at the track because you like the horses coat? In addition, my comments about losses were on the entire webos debacle at HP, not just marketing.
    I was referring to the investments that allegedly HP placed on WebOS last year, that to them it was a huge loss that they had to scrape off their plans into further development of WebOS. For me its, was just a small excuse for them to cancel everything due to their corporate small views, that has probably never seen or experienced device that was intended for consumers in his life. It was very shocking to see a tech giant like HP that makes this kinds of level of mismanagement within the corporate world.

    There was a nice blog post that detailed some of the news that been circulating about HP, and their levels of corporate drama among other thing. The writer tried to figure a few details about the alleged investment made from HP to WebOS and I tend to agree with his opinions that the investments wasn't that large like the HP company pretends that it was like... but only like 2.5 billion dollars was really invested into the department. He also talks about the 1.2 billion used to make that purchase of Palm, talks about the manufacturing cost of the Veer and Palm Pre 3 which wasn't much money. He also mentions that HP save a few dollars into the TouchPad tablet, because it was already made only that it was running Android due to HP probably investigating the market for a Tablet. So the manufacturing/designing was saved due to the TouchPad was already made under the HP departments, and you got the stories from Leo "the stooge" turning the back on WebOS maybe even cutting the funds entirely on that department because it didn't fit his vision of turning HP to IBM giving a perfect excuse to completely dismantle the operations of WebOS.

    Then we got to talk about the, the said investments that HP did on WebOS was so huge, then why HP devices for WebOS were so poorly marketed ? And where were the app developers support as well for WebOS platform, look at Microsoft company they invested heavily and they got more developers than WebOS(even before the whole cancellation event happened with HP). Windows phones has only two years on the market, while it isn't selling well, they got more developers creating apps that blackberry combined and more than the years that WebOS was on the market ? Now let's talk about investments of HP to WebOS, Please HP give out the true numbers instead of rumors and whispers?

    But hey, mentioning putting money(like $100 million) into WebOS would be nice too for HP to do. It will certainly, make something good for WebOS platform, maybe the team at the WebOS department could call third-party developers to make apps for WebOS and probably make the next version of the WebOS 4.0.
    Owner of an HP TouchPad (32GB) and a brand new Palm Pre 3 (16GB) for VZ wireless.
  20.    #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by Vistaus View Post
    Mission Control? Come on, it works smooth yes, but it's not like Apple invented that. Compiz on Linux has had mission control for many years.
    I'm not saying that Apple invented Mission control, but they use linux to their advantage with using part of that software to make a workable feature that they like to call "Mission control". Lots of people around the media outlets talked about a similar functionality being built for the WebOS platform and its benefits that it could create with the multitasking abilities into the already created within the interface of WebOS. and I certainly could agree with that....pretend to image something like the image below but nice designed and created specially within the environment of the software that WebOS was built on. For me its a winner...
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Owner of an HP TouchPad (32GB) and a brand new Palm Pre 3 (16GB) for VZ wireless.
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