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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by millertime View Post
    I'm very familiar with the scene. No hardware since August. Six leaving while up is hiring is not the end of the world.
    It's nearly June and there doesn't appear to be any plans for more WebOS based hardware.
  2. #42  
    Maybe it's the eternal optimist in me but...

    Few/None of the core Macintosh 1984 developers worked on the First Generation iPod. And I'll bet few/none of the core First Gen iPod developers worked on MacOS X. And I'll bet few/none of the original, core MacOS X developers worked on the iPhone and iOS.... just like I'm sure few/none of the core NeXTSTEP developers worked on MacOS X.

    Likewise, where did the Enyo staff come from to begin with?

    It sucks that many of the core Enyo staff are leaving, but that's business. But y'know what's also business? New, talented developers being hired to replace them.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by millertime View Post
    Six leaving while up is hiring is not the end of the world.
    You are making my point.

    Off the market - the spin is that it's only been since August.

    6 people leave the WebOS Enyo team - the spin is that it's not the end of the world.

    "It's just a flesh wound".
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    "It's just a flesh wound".
    It's a deep flesh wound, but fortunately new limbs can be bought. Many times, those limbs are better than the ones lost.

    Again, where the the Enyo staff come from to begin with? It's not like Palm/HP willed them out of thin air...
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by dignitary View Post
    @nick15

    Your analogy with Apple doesn't work at all, unfortunately.
    My analogy was meant to be more along the lines of: the lost of one prior successful product's core developers doesn't mean that company can't do create a new success without them. As in, it's not like future success is impossible just because a "Dream Team" of developers of one successful product had jumped ship.

    And even then, consider just the the Macintosh OS alone: depending on where you want to slice it, few/none of the staff that existed at one point were around for another point in time, and yet Apple still managed to keep it alive and selling. As in, between 1984 and 2001, Apple was still able to keep the MacOS sellable--and even towards the end, profitable--despite not having the original developers who added this portion or that portion of the code.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by dignitary View Post
    LinkedIn is your friend. Their career histories are right there to look at for most of them.

    Here's McNulty's, so I've done some of the work for you:
    Matthew McNulty | LinkedIn
    I'm not sure if you were replying to me, but my question of "where did the Enyo staff come from" was rhetorical; the idea that just because someone is leaving, it doesn't mean it's impossible to find someone to fill their shoes. Even McNulty's resume shows that he was at Palm/HP for about three years; apparently that was enough time at Palm/HP to do good. As such, it's not impossible to find another talented engineer who has had ten years of experience, give him a X month refresher course on Enyo and things will be back on track, along with fresh ideas as well.

    Again, where did the Enyo staff come from? It's not like their departure means doom. Hell, consider it from Google's perspective; their addition to Android means boon, despite their (apparent, I'm guessing) experience with the actual ins-and-outs of Android from the inside... but give them X months and it'll be like they've been there forever. If they're smart and crafty engineers (which I'm sure they are), their lack of actual physical time at Google and Android-from-the-inside won't mean anything.

    As such, what's to say it won't be the same for HP and Enyo? There are enough smart and crafty engineers out there to likewise quickly learn, make themselves at home and set up shop as if they've been there since the beginning.

    The ONLY thing that would suck is the idea of training them from scratch and the time necessary for that. But, again, if Google thinks it's worth having their talent for the time it takes to train them and get them up-to-speed, it's not like HP will find a similar task impossible. (Of course, whether they're WILLING to do so is something completely else, which I won't touch right now.)
  7. #47  
    HP pulled the plug on WebOS product 12 months after the Palm deal closed. WebOS meant nothing to the bottom line other than a huge multi-bllion dollar loss.
    Last edited by rnld; 05/25/2012 at 03:50 AM. Reason: spelling
  8. #48  
    Does anyone actually believe that HP is going to hire people to work on WebOS while laying off 27,000 employees?
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by dignitary View Post
    Moving past your misunderstanding of allocating qualified developers to major initiatives, Apple's culture is also vastly different than that of HP's. Macintosh was a core component of Apple's entire business. webOS is a few dozen people (at best) in chairs pumping out code while HP executives tout the power of Windows 8 on mobile and their dedication to supporting that platform instead. And nothing webOS could be considered a "successful" product in any way when compared to iOS, Android, or even Windows Phone and Blackberry for that matter.

    So, no, analogy still invalid. webOS is not a core HP product that the company depends on for revenue. Macintosh, MacOS, and OS/X, for Apple, were and are. Comparing webOS to anything Apple in any other context than maybe the Newton (innovative, ahead of its time, but nobody wanted it) is just gonna be a losing battle.
    Yes, I understand that the culture at HP and Apple is/was different, in that the Macintosh OS was Apple's bread-and-butter at the time while webOS is some side-side-project that HP feels burned with. HP's willingness to put the necessary resources compared to Apple's is different and I easily and unarguable accept that.

    But from where I stand, certain things remain true regardless of the finer details (as in, on a more macro scale). Specifically that, assuming someone is willing to put in the time and effort, present fail or success has little or nothing to do with past failures or successes. I will agree that HP's desire to put someone in to replace McNulty is unlikely, but not impossible. As such, if HP decides it's important enough, they WILL find someone talented to replace McNulty and staff and Enyo and webOS will continue on like nothing happened. Whether or not they will, I'm not prepared to argue that... I'm simply stating my observation that it can happen, and has happened, if the powers-that-be wanted it to happen at least.

    The reason why I compared this with what had happened at Apple is that, from my perspective--which I'll admit may not be anything close to yours--Apple went through the same thing with developers and key people leaving all the time. But Apple still pushed on and made successes happen. When someone talented left, they got someone talented to replace them, regardless of how well they knew Apple's code.

    As such, if there's only one reason why this analogy wouldn't work, it's because HP and Apple's goals and desires are/were not the same. I also accept that any other holes that you can poke through in this, but it is because that my observations is that replacements can and will be made that I feel this way.
  10. #50  
    Apple never took their OS off the market. It was always being updated up to system 9.2.2 in Dec. 2001. OSX was released in 2001 before the last update of System 9.

    I still have a 2002 iMac G4 800 MHZ running OSX 10.4 and system 9.2.2. I can't believe it's 10 years old and still works like a charm. It's not my daily driver, however.
    Last edited by rnld; 05/25/2012 at 04:18 AM. Reason: added info
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by dignitary View Post
    And who's going to train new engineers for Enyo if the best and brightest have left? I'm always entertained when someone has to answer that. I manage 20 people in a high-profile software development environment, so I'm kinda really familiar with this territory and every aspect around it.
    I don't doubt your expertise on this matter, and I'm not going to claim that my understanding of workplace training is complete.

    However, MY understanding and experience is that documentation is forever, and if it was written well, even an inexperience dolt can become an expert with enough time ("enough time" is the key word, it could mean "sixty years"). As such, if McNulty did his job right (or his tech writers did for him), then even the lack of the best and brightest to train them will--again, in my personal experience--not be THAT much of a hamper on training. Maybe it'll take longer than it would it should, but it's not impossible, especially if the desire and willingness to train is there. (Whether or not the desire and willingness is there in HP to sit and train the next generation of developers is the real $10,000 Question, one I have no answer for.)

    However, this may or may not trump your knowledge on this, so I welcome anything you may have to add.

    Furthermore, maybe one way Apple made it work is that, even though people like Jef Raskin weren't around through the WHOLE of the Macintosh's 16 year lifespan, he DID at least train someone who was capable of taking over the project from him.... and as such, maybe McNulty DIDN'T train his successor. Or maybe he did? In that case, I can't imagine that he would jump ship without training someone to take the reigns, but maybe you know something about this that I don't?

    .....

    Quote Originally Posted by dignitary View Post
    No.

    At this point, HP will evaluate whether to release Enyo largely to the community with minimal internal support, or to let it ride 100% in the community and ditch the remaining folks once they've finish their individual components and fully documented where Enyo is in its current state.

    Once you've lost your best folks on a non-revenue generating project, you've been kneecapped and you start thinking about Plan B pretty damned quickly. The third option would be, if there's someone skilled enough left to lead Enyo, to bring in paid interns under their wing to mess with it with unpredictable results.

    You don't, as a company, pay $100,000+/year (x6) to replace the people you've lost with top-tier qualified engineers when it's a project literally running at a loss every day. That's not only crazy talk, but frankly asinine and a slap in the face to those that lost their jobs.
    Unfortunately I don't know what the conditions or situations that occurred before they jumped ship. Unless they have updated with details, I don't know if they were fired, quit amicably or inamicably or this was a mutual agreement. As such, assuming they weren't fired, I can assume that McNulty and crew wouldn't have left HP hanging with no one to take the reigns.

    Unless HP is run by complete idiots (jokes aside), I can't imagine that they have no Plan B, OR that Plan B hasn't already been executed, or that Plan B was in gear long before this news was released.

    But I'm just someone who is on the outside of all this, so my headcanon can easily be correct by the facts. I'm well open to them, albeit with questions asked to ensure I'm not just blindly accepting them.
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    #52  
    This really sucks, why do HP leave WebOS for free after spending billions of dollars in purchasing it, atleast they can make money by licensing the IP of WebOS(atleast this way the copying of WebOS can be retricted), now every one is copying the best parts of WebOS into their systems & releasing their copied work(OS) to public. I really wanted WebOS features to be only available with WebOS only not with other ones. These stupid Hp people don't even have basic sense of business. Hire me for free Hp I can give better Ideas than your board members!, atleast I have a basic sense how business is done!.
    HP TOUCHPAD
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by dignitary View Post
    Usually when key people leave, there are still highly qualified people that remain. Every indication so far sounds as if Google poached the best of the Enyo team (which I alluded to earlier), leaving "the rest" behind. This would mean a major knowledge gap that may or may not be recoverable from, depending on who was left behind.

    Put more succinctly, you can't just pull 6 outstanding developers of the street, shove them in front of an entire framework they have no understanding of, and expect them to do well for a considerably long amount of time--throwing schedules out of whack, to boot. If there was someone left behind that has a complete understanding at a leadership level to guide them into prior knowledge and the whys and how of why certain architectural decisions were made, that'd be different.

    We'll just have to wait and see where things end up, but again, it doesn't look good at all. Personally, I don't envy the person left behind that'll be tasked with carrying the torch unless it's someone like Ben Combee, assuming he wasn't poached as well.
    It sucks that "the rest" are left, but at least they know Enyo enough to keep it going (at least, I HOPE they do). My understanding and experience has been, even though a single member of "the rest" doesn't know exactly everything that the main guy knew, "the rest", collectively, knew enough to maintain is... maybe even knew more collectively than any one person did.

    You're absolutely right; as possible in the long run it is to regain one's stide, having six fully capable developers jump ship like this is not something that is easily replaceable over night (assuming this came without warning). As such, this is "a flesh wound" in the Monty Python scale of things. Even I understand that, optimistically, you can't get someone up to McNulty's level of experience within maybe even six months. And even if they had an inherent nack of it, they don't have McNulty's physically three year experience to work off of... the only way they will is by, well, working there for three years. So unless HP and the community is willing to wait three years... it's gonna be tough. But fortunately, being an Apple faithful for so long, I can't help but feel my patience will pay off in the end (but yes, HP != Apple, so who knows).

    I at least have faith that McNulty plus five weren't such complete jerks to leave their "baby" behind in the hand of someone they literally pulled the pants down of. Assuming HP didn't jerk them around, I would think it to be quite silly to at least make sure it was left in the hands of SOMEONE capable, even if it's only collectively "the rest".

    This is not good news, no. But my whole perspective from the beginning of this--and I appreciate your patience and knowledge--is that, companies have rebounded from worse. It is "just a flesh wound" but if someone is willing to pay for it and wait for their new limbs to grow back... well, it'll be like if never happened before. I can only pray for that much (as that's all I can do).

    Or in other words, everything I did now was just to make me feel not as butthurt as I could.

    ....


    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    Apple never took their OS off the market. It was always being updated up to system 9.2.2 in Dec. 2001. OSX was released in 2001 before the last update of System 9.
    I'm quite familiar with that, and that was in fact what I felt was my strong point in my analogy; even though someone like Jef Raskin left in 1982 (before the Macintosh was ready for prime time no less) and Bill Atkinson left in 1990, the Macintosh was still able to be kept alive by many talented developers up until 2001. McNulty is/was webOS's/Enyo's Raskin and Atkinson, but I'm sure that despite his departure, webOS and Enyo will survive under the hands of other talented developers.

    Again, assuming HP wants it to happen. I pray that they truly do, but it's obvious that few have the faith I have (or have any reason to have faith, which I don't blame them).
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by st_7 View Post
    This really sucks, why do HP leave WebOS for free after spending billions of dollars in purchasing it, atleast they can make money by licensing the IP of WebOS(atleast this way the copying of WebOS can be retricted), now every one is copying the best parts of WebOS into their systems & releasing their copied work(OS) to public. I really wanted WebOS features to be only available with WebOS only not with other ones. These stupid Hp people don't even have basic sense of business. Hire me for free Hp I can give better Ideas than your board members!, atleast I have a basic sense how business is done!.
    In a perfect world, HP will pull off an Apple-style rebound (by wanting it just as much as Apple did) and webOS will make a part of a mobile troika.

    In a less perfect world, Google will license HP/Palm's patents to protect them from Apple's patent trolls (y'know, like Palm's patent on [IIRC] the very concept of smartphones) and Android version 6 will essentially be webAndroidOS.

    Either one of those situations is enough to make me happy!
  15. #55  
    Assuming that Enyo remains Open Source, webOS can continue to benefit from their work.
  16. cgk
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    #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    You are making my point.

    Off the market - the spin is that it's only been since August.

    6 people leave the WebOS Enyo team - the spin is that it's not the end of the world.

    "It's just a flesh wound".
    It's interesting how people use language, it's a bit harder to hide when we reach this August in about six weeks - once this becomes "It's only been off the market for a year".
  17. digity's Avatar
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    #57  
    beer goggles are on and standards are lowered... Hello, Tizen :/
  18. #58  
    Regrettable, but HP remains committed so eventually Open webOS will get there.
    Not much more to it, IMHO.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by dignitary View Post
    No.

    At this point, HP will evaluate whether to release Enyo largely to the community with minimal internal support, or to let it ride 100% in the community and ditch the remaining folks once they've finish their individual components and fully documented where Enyo is in its current state.

    Once you've lost your best folks on a non-revenue generating project, you've been kneecapped and you start thinking about Plan B pretty damned quickly. The third option would be, if there's someone skilled enough left to lead Enyo, to bring in paid interns under their wing to mess with it with unpredictable results.

    You don't, as a company, pay $100,000+/year (x6) to replace the people you've lost with top-tier qualified engineers when it's a project literally running at a loss every day. That's not only crazy talk, but frankly asinine and a slap in the face to those that lost their jobs.
    Best posting yet afaic.

    To those "6 peoples aren't that bad" posters: you really think this is about numbers of people? Or is it about skills?
    Do you really think that someone who has eaten, drank, inhaled and sweatted WebOS over the last few years can be so easily replaced with some other guy who comes in completely new?

    Wake up people.

    All I now hope for is, that
    1) my current WebOS devices hold until a good Android 5 device is here and
    2) that all the WebOS knowhow of Duarte and all the other guys reflect in Android 5.

    Then it will be ME laying off HP ...
    War doesn't prove who's right, only who's left...
  20. #60  
    Ben Coombe is still at Palm!
    He tweeted that he will be at this conference on May 30th teaching about Enyo (see below). HP (Enyo) is a sponsor of the conference.
    I ripped off my Enyo sticker but perhaps I was too hasty.

    Usually with acquisitions, the buyer locks up key people with non-competes (as well as salary/bonuses) for 1-3 years. After that, the new company is presumed to have had enough time to train its own people. f this were the case, I suppose it has been almost 2 years since the acquisition, the head guy of the team could have been locked up for 1 year to 18 months.

    I'm not sure what this means. I understood Enyo as a way for webOS devs to also build for android and IOS--in other words, an outward facing architecture. So if Coombe and others are still at HP and they are open sourcing Enyo, what prevents future webOS developers from using it?

    The bigger question for me--what of webOS itself? When it is open-sourced, will it be picked up by an OEM or not?
    Are the enyo people going to Google, aiming to support enyo apps made under google's employ? Doesn't that mean those apps can run on webOS? The future of apps anyway is going to be the web, doesn't this ratify that the web apps are coming sooner rather than later?

    Google is not in a good place yet with tablets, despite having poached Duartes a year plus ago from webOS, amazon kindle fire having eaten google's lunch as they don't get much advertising or app revenue from amazon's customized version. With win8 coming down the pike, I see google being afraid they will be marginalized in the tablet arena--poaching webOS players a way for them to try to stop this.

    I wish openWebOS would be here already and we could move forward and see what we have.

    I don't care if enyo blah blah goes to Google, I still won't use Google products except very gingerly, if not webOS it is going to be IOS for me.

    A Deeper Look at the Enyo JavaScript Framework: Fluent 2012 - O'Reilly Conferences, May 29 - 31, 2012, San Francisco, CA

    A Deeper Look at the Enyo JavaScript Framework
    Ben Combee (HP / Palm)
    1:45pm Wednesday, 05/30/2012
    Sponsored, Golden Gate 6-7

    In this session, we will explore the ideas behind Enyo, a new JavaScript framework that takes the ideas of encapsulation and reusable code objects into the web application and mobile worlds. We will also explore the ecosystem of new libraries built on the Enyo core, especially the Onyx user-interface system which was designed to be beautiful and usable across multiple platforms.
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