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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by Suntan View Post
    As SnotBoogie asked, why would switching to webOS be better for Amazon instead of just continuing down the android path that they are already pretty far down?
    As I understand it they took a branch of Android and made significant changes to get to where they are. Keeping in sync with later Android releases will be a huge effort. It may simply be that they are considering not bothering to keep in sync with Android and, if they do that then they can incorporate any features from any other source they like. They will be cut off from the main Android market in any case so that won't be an issue but I guess they would want to keep the API close so that apps can be easily copied to their own market.

    My guess, if they do buy webOS is that they will be mainly after the patents to protect themselves and then after some features of webOS they want to build in. The end result could be pretty good but won't be much like Android or webOS.
    slbailey1 likes this.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by andyhurley View Post
    They will be cut off from the main Android market in any case so that won't be an issue but I guess they would want to keep the API close so that apps can be easily copied to their own market.
    Are you guys aware of how many of the apps on the android market are still compatible back to 2.1? Heck a vast majority of the apps available are still compatible back to android 1.5 or earlier versions.

    In fact, I wonder if anyone can find even 5 apps in the market that don’t support 2.1. I can’t say as I’ve seen any that need a later build.

    Anyway, why would webOS be a *better* option? Assuming all android app developers suddenly decide to actively go out of their way and break compatibility with the older versions for no good reason, how would that be worse than not having those apps available in the first place by switching to a webOS environment?

    Finally, for right or wrong, Amazon picked android and they decided to customize it the way they wanted it. Now there is evidence that app makers are willing to actively support it. Not just maintain compatibility with the older version of the OS that they always had, but actively update their apps specifically to support the Fire device. Why would Amazon dump all that support, spit on developers, and jump over to webOS to start it all over again?

    For example, right now the best selling app in the Amazon App Store (in the last 24hrs) is the Fire optimized version of Plants vs. Zombies. The default Plants vs. Zombies already worked just fine on the fire and other tablets, yet Popcap decided to make a Fire optimized version. Not exactly the “this fork of android that Amazon has made is dead on arrival” you hear some people mis-believe.

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/movers-and-...bosnation0e-20

    When was the last time you heard anything about Popcap bringing Plants vs. Zombies to webOS? They don’t even have a webOS page on their website anymore.

    -Suntan
    SnotBoogie and slbailey1 like this.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by bobsentell View Post
    Amazon would be in a great position if they bought webOS. One of the biggest pans against the Amazon Fire is Android. webOS gives Amazon a solid OS and gives webOS an ecosystem that is pre-built.
    Déjà vu. I feel like I've heard that argument before...

    Quote Originally Posted by bobsentell View Post
    Amazon HP would be in a great position if they bought webOS. One of the biggest pans against the Amazon Fire is Android. webOS gives Amazon HP a solid OS and gives webOS an ecosystem that is pre-built.
    Oh there it is.
  4. #44  
    OS's and API's are generally backwards compatible, not forward compatible.
    An app built on an older version of the API's will generally work on a later version of the OS.
    An app built on a later version will generally not work on an earlier version of the OS.

    Not to mention, ICS has many mods to it. It seems like the windowing/messaging system probably has changed drastically. Anything designed to support the new messages will break on a OS 2 generations old.

    It is simple for app builders to support the Fire now, because most of their code is more than likely compatible. The further down the road you get the more work will be required. In fact, I would venture to say that once ICS apps go mainstream (my guess is the very near future), then most of the code will have to be re-written to support the Fire.

    But it is not just the OS. It is also that if Amazon truly wants a closed ecosystem, then they need to have their own OS. And not one that is open source and built on something that can easily be hacked. That is all. That is why Apple doesn't have an open source OS, that is why only their hardware works with their OS (and vice versa), and that is why they have their own content delivery solutions for their devices.
  5. #45  
    tbh there should be a sticky at the top of the forums for him so he can have a sort of archived news report list to all his posts.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardWiz View Post
    OS's and API's are generally backwards compatible, not forward compatible.
    An app built on an older version of the API's will generally work on a later version of the OS.
    An app built on a later version will generally not work on an earlier version of the OS.



    Not to mention, ICS has many mods to it. It seems like the windowing/messaging system probably has changed drastically. Anything designed to support the new messages will break on a OS 2 generations old.

    It is simple for app builders to support the Fire now, because most of their code is more than likely compatible. The further down the road you get the more work will be required. In fact, I would venture to say that once ICS apps go mainstream (my guess is the very near future), then most of the code will have to be re-written to support the Fire.
    Not to belabor the point, but you’re just saying things that apply to *all* operating systems and have from day one. How would webOS be *better*? The answer is, it wouldn’t. My dusty old 1.45 Pre+ will never run any of these fancy new webOS apps that are intended for a TP.

    Quote Originally Posted by LizardWiz View Post
    But it is not just the OS. It is also that if Amazon truly wants a closed ecosystem, then they need to have their own OS. And not one that is open source and built on something that can easily be hacked. That is all. That is why Apple doesn't have an open source OS, that is why only their hardware works with their OS (and vice versa), and that is why they have their own content delivery solutions for their devices.
    That’s just it. Amazon doesn’t want a truly close ecosystem. They want to have their cake and eat it too, and they are doing it pretty slyly imo. They saw the life of the Nook Color. They saw how it ballooned in popularity with the nerd crowd after it had become common knowledge that you could easily hack the Color to run full android. They know that they need to make the thing easily hacked to get the kind of people that hang out in phone forums to buy it. But they still want to have something unique and closed off for the regular people that just want to buy the Kindle and use it as Amazon built it.

    And that’s what they did.

    Today you can buy one for your mom, who will never care about which android version it is running, she’ll access Amazon’s website and consume stuff the way the Fire was designed. Today you can also buy one, and have it sideloading android .ipks in minutes. Or go all in a root it completely with really simple tools.

    http://www.androidcentral.com/how-en...e-fire-windows

    http://www.androidcentral.com/root-k...-superoneclick

    If Amazon truly wanted a closed off system, they could have made it harder to root. At least hard enough that nobody in the modding community would bother, what with the much higher spec’ed nook tablet only $50 more.

    Heck, Amazon even admits that they expect it to be rooted and won’t do anything to stop it.

    Amazon: The Kindle Fire Will Get Rooted | News & Opinion | PCMag.com

    Again, what would webOS offer that is *better* than android? Better enough to make them dump all the momentum they have built with android over the last half a year?

    -Suntan
    SnotBoogie likes this.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardWiz View Post
    To get a complete mobile OS. To have their own ecosystem. There are many reasons.

    It is obvious that they don't want to be plugged into Google, by doing everything that they could to not be they have limited their OS. If they want a complete OS they have to finish it themselves. Their forked OS will no longer be compatible with Android in the near future, so any benefits that they have received up till now by getting current Android developers to build apps for their platform will eventually fade away. If they want a true ecosystem to call their own than they have to start from their own OS. All their hard work to close the loop on Google for their Android port will be overcome in the snap of a finger once these things get into the wild.
    Whoa there LizardWiz -- your implication here is that their OS is not a "complete" OS. Sorry, but that is not the case. Their forked OS off of AOSP is already complete. Even if they stay completely divorced from the "mainline" of Android they are still significantly ahead of the game then they would be if they abandoned that and went with webOS and forced all their app developers to change platforms in mid-product release.

    If they did go with webOS instead of Android they would not just kill their existing base, but rather would start a new fork of Kindle OSes.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardWiz View Post
    To get a complete mobile OS. To have their own ecosystem. There are many reasons.

    It is obvious that they don't want to be plugged into Google, by doing everything that they could to not be they have limited their OS. If they want a complete OS they have to finish it themselves. Their forked OS will no longer be compatible with Android in the near future, so any benefits that they have received up till now by getting current Android developers to build apps for their platform will eventually fade away. If they want a true ecosystem to call their own than they have to start from their own OS. All their hard work to close the loop on Google for their Android port will be overcome in the snap of a finger once these things get into the wild.
    They have that already in Android. It's got lots of features webos doesn't, cloud lockers, cloud music, the camera has more features, things like youtube apps are more robust, the email has more features, native visual voicemail, voice commands like voice navigation and voice search. I'm sure there are more features i don't know about as i don't use an android phone. Android has a much bigger ecosystem then webos does. In many ways webos in not complete. Many reasons? Personally i've yet to hear ones that i find very persuasive.

    I've yet to see anything to convince me Amazon wants to market this as an android tablet. They want to sell a delivery system for android media. Look at the kindle fire commericals. "a kindle for movies, music, apps, games, web browsing, and of course, reading!" They they sell every one of those things except webbrowsing which is free. That's their focus. Nowhere in any commerical do they even say the word Android. That's why it's skinned android and apps merely a small button and not a focus. It's why they say you can do lots on it but they aren't trying to sell it like apple as a do everything tablet. they aren't saying, like apple did, that you should buy it for your doctors to use medical apps or a where house to monitor inventory. I'm sure they wouldn't mind but everything i've seen indicates they don't care about running the latest version of android or having an full featured tablet that will distract people from buying Amazon stuff. As far as i know amazon makes most of their profits from books. They see the future. it's declining physical book sales. They are looking to adapt and stay in the game. They don't want to end up like best buy selling cds. Where people just go online and they were too slow. So i just think any worry about keeping up with android is not that important.
    Last edited by SnotBoogie; 11/16/2011 at 03:00 PM.
    You come at the king. You best not miss.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by SnotBoogie View Post
    ....
    Right now, WebOS loses on both quantity and quality. There are not nearly enough quality apps. I'm not talking about coding quality. I mean quality names. Like you need the netflixes, and the google whatevers, and the starbucks etc.

    "willing to grow webos slowly"? On that point i'd pose the same question as above. I just wonder why would Amazon want to grow a different OS when Android is already grown up?
    I didn't say webOS had quality and I didn't say that Amazon should do anything. I was replying to another post. I simply said that at some point people will stop measuring mobile OS platforms by the number of apps it has and begin to look at the overall usefulness of the system. On that point, webOS could be successful if someone would/could continue it's development.

    That is all I said and while I think it's possible, I doubt it will happen. I don't see HP or any one else doing it. I think Google or Apple will end up with the webOS, either all or parts of it, when the price goes down and I'm not even against that happening if they take the best parts and use them.
  10. #50  
    I said this in another thread, but here goes:

    Throwing a bunch of devices out there isn't going to do anything for webOS without a full ecosystem of first-party media consumption and productivity apps wrapped into the value proposition. iOS, Android, WP7, and even Amazon have this pretty much down pat, whereas webOS' system consisted solely of third-party and licensed applications.

    QuickOffice HD and Box.net were good starts in this direction--7digital and the limited Roxio-licensed Movie Store not so much--but HP really needs to bring it to a new level by bringing talent in-house to fill in the gaps to complete a true ecosystem if they want to compete with the majors at this point. If there's one thing to take away from the current mobile landscape, it's that devices and form factors alone do not make an ecosystem; it's what you can do with them that does.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by ohiomoto View Post
    I didn't say webOS had quality and I didn't say that Amazon should do anything. I was replying to another post. I simply said that at some point people will stop measuring mobile OS platforms by the number of apps it has and begin to look at the overall usefulness of the system. On that point, webOS could be successful if someone would/could continue it's development.

    That is all I said and while I think it's possible, I doubt it will happen. I don't see HP or any one else doing it. I think Google or Apple will end up with the webOS, either all or parts of it, when the price goes down and I'm not even against that happening if they take the best parts and use them.
    well maybe i misunderstood your point but that was because you were responding to someone that said "webos didn't have many apps now" and with "quality over quantity" argument. I just thought you meant that as well they'll someday see the light that webos has the quality and the number of apps don't matter.

    regardless to the general argument i think people very much think quality over quantity. but right now the platform with the most quantity also has the most quality. And i don't think the day will come when people don't care about apps on a smartphone. As long as their are phones people will want apps.

    You say well what matters is the "usefulness" of the system. I'd argue that the apps add layers and layers of usefulness. My pre is nothing more now then an app for the basics of text, email checking and the rare phone call. Almost nothing more. I don't use facebook because the apps sucks. But other then those my phone has little usefulness because it has so few apps that interest me. I was just reading a thread asking for a Subsonic app for webos. To me an app like that equates to added usefulness. I can access my subsonic server. If yo don't have the app you can't do it on a pre. simple as that. I play guitar, (poorly), but something like garageband or amplitude adds usefulness because with it i can create music or practice guitar w/o an amp. without those apps a platform is less useful in my book.

    Basically all phones do the basics. phone calls, text, email, webbrowsing, camera. But what separates them is how well you do those things are the apps that do them full featured and what other apps you have to add to them. And considering that as time goes on people that grew up with smartphones and robust ecosystems will become a bigger part of the market i think it will be a very long time before apps go away. Thus is anyone's waiting for that day to be webos' savior i think that day is so far off if that day exists at all that it does not matter.
    You come at the king. You best not miss.
  12. cgk
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    #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by vanadium View Post
    I said this in another thread, but here goes:

    Throwing a bunch of devices out there isn't going to do anything for webOS without a full ecosystem of first-party media consumption and productivity apps wrapped into the value proposition. iOS, Android, WP7, and even Amazon have this pretty much down pat, whereas webOS' system consisted solely of third-party and licensed applications.
    Right, look at the launch of google music this morning:


    Analysts say selling online music is unlikely to provide much of a lift to Google's revenue. But they say Google needs to be in the market to ensure that its Android-based mobile efforts can match offerings from competitors.

    Android is the world's No. 1 smartphone operating system, powering about 200m devices worldwide. But without a music service, Android-based smartphones and tablets may not be as attractive to consumers seeking a product that offers a seamless media experience.
    Google opens Android music store to challenge Apple iTunes | Technology | guardian.co.uk

    The hardware and OS are in some respects the easy bits, it's the billions you have to pour into the ecosystem that is the real cost - and it's a cost that keeps increasing.
    dignitary likes this.
  13. #53  
    These issues you guys just brought up, having movies available, having songs, etc. etc. It's the main reason why I think HP dumped webOS and is now doubling down their efforts to get ready for win8 tablets. HP is a PC hardware maker, making their tablets off of win8 sidesteps the need to deal with getting all the content under their own umbrella.

    All the people on the main page the other day, all whipped up that webOS was going to make a great comeback, all because hp was sending out serveys asking them what they like about their tablets... That marketing research is going directly into development of win8 tablets imo.

    -Suntan
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  14. #54  
    Well, we should get a decision soon enough, but you may be right.
    These stories in another thread show that HP is turning towards ultrabooks for their consumerization play, and win tablets for enterprise. Digitimes quotes suppliers as saying they think there is no room for a low cost tablet from the pc makers because amazon and b&n are crowding out the cheap market. But who knows? Maybe this study is for webOS and HP wants to try again.

    http://forums.precentral.net/hp-webo...ml#post3246245

    edit: BGR now quoting citibank analyst saying Amazon is producing phones 4Q 2012
    http://www.bgr.com/2011/11/17/an-ama...-analyst-says/
    Last edited by bluenote; 11/17/2011 at 12:20 PM.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by SnotBoogie View Post
    well maybe i misunderstood your point but that was because you were responding to someone that said "webos didn't have many apps now" and with "quality over quantity" argument. I just thought you meant that as well they'll someday see the light that webos has the quality and the number of apps don't matter.

    regardless to the general argument i think people very much think quality over quantity. but right now the platform with the most quantity also has the most quality. And i don't think the day will come when people don't care about apps on a smartphone. As long as their are phones people will want apps.

    You say well what matters is the "usefulness" of the system. I'd argue that the apps add layers and layers of usefulness. My pre is nothing more now then an app for the basics of text, email checking and the rare phone call. Almost nothing more. I don't use facebook because the apps sucks. But other then those my phone has little usefulness because it has so few apps that interest me. I was just reading a thread asking for a Subsonic app for webos. To me an app like that equates to added usefulness. I can access my subsonic server. If yo don't have the app you can't do it on a pre. simple as that. I play guitar, (poorly), but something like garageband or amplitude adds usefulness because with it i can create music or practice guitar w/o an amp. without those apps a platform is less useful in my book.

    Basically all phones do the basics. phone calls, text, email, webbrowsing, camera. But what separates them is how well you do those things are the apps that do them full featured and what other apps you have to add to them. And considering that as time goes on people that grew up with smartphones and robust ecosystems will become a bigger part of the market i think it will be a very long time before apps go away. Thus is anyone's waiting for that day to be webos' savior i think that day is so far off if that day exists at all that it does not matter.
    All I'm trying to say is that you don't need 10,000 apps to get a rich user experience. (How many "apps" do you use on a PC??) I didn't say you don't need apps and I didn't say webOS has the apps needed to compete. I'm just saying the basic UI has a lot of potential and it COULD be a success if a long term plan were put in place and someone were willing to do it. I'm not sure how else to say it (for the third time). So you don't need to write a book about what you thought I said.
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by ohiomoto View Post
    All I'm trying to say is that you don't need 10,000 apps to get a rich user experience. (How many "apps" do you use on a PC??) I didn't say you don't need apps and I didn't say webOS has the apps needed to compete. I'm just saying the basic UI has a lot of potential and it COULD be a success if a long term plan were put in place and someone were willing to do it. I'm not sure how else to say it (for the third time). So you don't need to write a book about what you thought I said.
    I didn't say you needed 10000 either. It "could be a success." I say it could not. Potential isn't worth anything when nobody will by the devices. HP and Palm found that out quickly.
    You come at the king. You best not miss.
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by ohiomoto View Post
    All I'm trying to say is that you don't need 10,000 apps to get a rich user experience. (How many "apps" do you use on a PC??) I didn't say you don't need apps and I didn't say webOS has the apps needed to compete. I'm just saying the basic UI has a lot of potential and it COULD be a success if a long term plan were put in place and someone were willing to do it. I'm not sure how else to say it (for the third time). So you don't need to write a book about what you thought I said.
    You do need 10,000 (even more would be better) apps to have a rich user experience. That's because your average user may only use 10 or 15 apps regularly, but those 10-15 apps are different for everyone.

    That's why iOS is wildly successful. No matter what apps you're looking for, they're probably in the App Store.
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  18. gbp
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    #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by Suntan View Post
    These issues you guys just brought up, having movies available, having songs, etc. etc. It's the main reason why I think HP dumped webOS and is now doubling down their efforts to get ready for win8 tablets. HP is a PC hardware maker, making their tablets off of win8 sidesteps the need to deal with getting all the content under their own umbrella.

    All the people on the main page the other day, all whipped up that webOS was going to make a great comeback, all because hp was sending out serveys asking them what they like about their tablets... That marketing research is going directly into development of win8 tablets imo.

    -Suntan
    wow, that was another angle to the survey. Does HP needs to know the demand for tablets by conducting a survey ? Don't they know about the sales of tablets from other platforms ? Don't they know where they are behind ?
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    wow, that was another angle to the survey. Does HP needs to know the demand for tablets by conducting a survey ? Don't they know about the sales of tablets from other platforms ? Don't they know where they are behind ?
    Well, the company I work for has been in the same business for just under 100 years (97.) They are the undisputed leader in some sections of the market. You know what is still the most effective way for our marketing groups to find out what our customers want in their next product? To ask them.

    Anyway, what do you think is more likely; HP wants to know what customers might want added to win 8 tablets that they have expressly stated they are still actively developing, or that they want to know what people want in some webOS tablets that they have expressly stated they will no longer develop?

    -Suntan
  20. #60  
    If Amazon buys it the chances of getting webOS devices in Sweden is incredible slim.
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