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Veer, Pre3 & TouchPad battery health
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Old 06/20/2012, 05:24 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by OldSkoolVWLover View Post
The chips in the battery regulate the charge the battery sees.

Somline feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I am prettty sure the regulation is on the battery side.
In generel yes, but in fact it is true that the current is higher with the TP-charger on a pre.
This was (controversial) discussed some time ago.
I haven't analysed this effect and don't know if it's good or bad for the battery.
I think it will shorten the battery life in general, but this is only an assumption as it is some kind of "quick charge" and I don't know if the battery can handle that.
But if you read this it seems to be no harm.
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Old 06/20/2012, 05:42 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I would think from my limited knowledge, the higher current will also result in higher temps, which has some effect on battery life over time.

Either way my devices all end up on touchstones 99.9% of the time, for better or worse, I love inductive charging.
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Old 06/20/2012, 06:16 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by OldSkoolVWLover View Post
I would think from my limited knowledge, the higher current will also result in higher temps, which has some effect on battery life over time.

Either way my devices all end up on touchstones 99.9% of the time, for better or worse, I love inductive charging.
So I had to delete my post since it has false information in it. I didn't find the chart I was looking for.
Yes higher current could lead in higher temp, which has a negative affect of battery life over time.
But a touchstone produces a lot of heat as well. I also use TS's only on my devices.
Actually I think the TS will produce more heat than the TP charger on a pre (never measured) .
The current of charging is related to the % of charge. So higher the battery is charged the lower the current gets.
Charging stops at around (on pre batteries) 50mA. This curve is programmed into the chip by the manufacturer. So if they have programmed the chip in the right way it will not harm a pre/123 battery to use the TP charger.
See chart from: Charging Lithium-Ion Batteries
See the curve on a pre2 (red area) on 2nd attachment.
Attached Images
File Type: png batterylife_VS_current.png (126.2 KB, 21 views) Email Attachment
File Type: png UsingFlotInWebOs.png (36.5 KB, 22 views) Email Attachment
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Last edited by somline; 06/20/2012 at 06:40 PM.
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Old 06/20/2012, 07:04 PM   #24 (permalink)
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wow interesting stuff, thanks!
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Old 06/20/2012, 10:46 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by somline View Post
...The current of charging is related to the % of charge. So higher the battery is charged the lower the current gets.
Charging stops at around (on pre batteries) 50mA. This curve is programmed into the chip by the manufacturer...
I've actually watched Dr. Battery a few times at the end of a charging cycle trying to find where the "Tip Over" point is and it goes from charge to discharge (idling on the touchstone or charger)... I was guestimating somewhere just under +60 mA current... Good to know it is set at 50 mA current. Kind of hard to tell staring at the screen as it refreshes only every 30 seconds.

I am (rightly or wrongly) a subscriber to the theory that overcharging kills battery lifespan and capacity...

Thanks for the very informative post.
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Old 11/05/2012, 10:46 PM   #26 (permalink)
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And now we get this on "new" devices as well.
From a PM:
Quote:
.....
Last month I purchased a brand new HP Veer 4G. Since I turn it on for the first time I noticed that the battery was not enough. It works only for 5 hours a day under standard calls (no internet use, no email accounts or applications, no wifi) I am trying to find information and I downloaded Dr. Battery. It said that the health of my battery is only 50%. I don't understand since it's a brand new equipment. Anyways I will love to know your best advise. I am trying to contact HP Customer Service or Contact Support, but they have no phone numbers available (that I have knowledge of). I wrote them an emergency e-mail with no answer yet. I am really worried since this battery is not removable or replaceable,.. I don't know,... maybe there is a much better way to solve this issue.
Again, thanks for your help.
My response:
Quote:
Hi xxx,
your battery is defect. Please try to get it exchanged.
Please run the battery check from your device:
Open: Deviceinfo then from the menu choose Tests->interactive tests -> Power -> Battery
(I have a German version so use your imagination to find the english names :-)
You will see a red state from your battery. Report this to HP. Don't mention Dr.Battery because they don't believe third party apps.

Find more info about your problem here: http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-...ry-health.html

If you can't get it replaced you can try to repair your battery as mentioned in the above thread (you need a palm pre or pixi to do so)
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Old 11/07/2012, 10:17 PM   #27 (permalink)
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And now we get this on "new" devices as well.
Yeah... "New" in quotes. It's probably a gamble buying BNIB at this stage. As you pointed out a few posts back, storage temp affects battery. I doubt all these overstock places are holding electronics in a nice, climate controlled environment.

I just got a "BNIB" TouchPad from a member here. Battery at 95% when unboxed and charged. *shrug* Not too bad considering.

Imagine the phone or tablet left sweltering in a warehouse over two consecutive summers.
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Old 11/07/2012, 10:29 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by RumoredNow View Post
[snip]
I am (rightly or wrongly) a subscriber to the theory that overcharging kills battery lifespan and capacity...
[/snip]
Hey, i agree... and so does letting the device bake on the touchstone for hours. I'm now thinking about creating a patch for myself where the phone would beep when it is fully charged... because until i know what is in that strange oil (plasticizer) that condenses on the back of the battery connector, i wouldn't want to be breathing the fumes of it....
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Old 11/10/2012, 03:13 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Hey, i agree... and so does letting the device bake on the touchstone for hours. I'm now thinking about creating a patch for myself where the phone would beep when it is fully charged... because until i know what is in that strange oil (plasticizer) that condenses on the back of the battery connector, i wouldn't want to be breathing the fumes of it....
Sorry I missed your post. My TouchPad is laying on the TS almost all day and night. I use TS for my Pre3 and Veer since the beginning (and before that with my pre and pre2).
The chip inside the battery in conjunction with the webos hard/software is preventing the battery from overcharging.
If you have a lot of time you can read all the findings about the battery and the chip here.
There is no (known by me) way (except by patching some files) to overcharge a webOS battery.
There is indeed one unanswered question: Does the heat produced by the TS (compared to USB charging) reduce the battery life?
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Old 03/01/2014, 06:04 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Add me to the list of people with low Pre3 battery health. Mine says 49% and I haven't been able to get it to change.

The battery has been sitting around for several years, obtained during the fall of Palm. Used for only a few cycles. It was stored in a dry place with what should have been around 70% charge. My in-use Pre3 battery is getting close to 80% health so I thought I'd better check up on this reserve battery. Shocked to see the health had deteriorated with NO USE!

Since then, I've tried charging and discharging but with no success in recovering the health. What is pissing me off is that something is preventing the battery from fully charging. I don't know if it's the in-battery chip or the Pre3 firmware.

I actually wrote Li-ion battery charging software for a major semi company many years ago. The info in the Maxim data sheet is consistent with my knowledge. The algorithm for determining the true health of a battery is basically the same one we used. The battery must be fully discharged (Voltage Active Empty point) and then coulombs going into the battery are counted while it is charging until the fully charged voltage is reached. This is typically around 4.2 V. On my Pre3 with a normal battery, Dr. Battery shows battery current flipping form charge to discharge at 4.17V.

But the charger for the Pre3 is not using voltage to terminate charging. It appears to be using the messed up health reading. Since my battery has "only" 49% health left, the maximum mAh it can hold is supposedly 607 mAh. So battery is allowed to charge up to 607 mAh + 100 mAh allowance. And then it stops charging. But the battery voltage is only 3.85V!! WTF? It's not even close to full. And if the battery never reaches the full charge voltage, the chip can't recalibrate the battery's health.

Got to see if there's a way around this bad programming.
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Old 03/01/2014, 06:35 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Man we mist you when we where analyzing the charging/battery stuff some years ago.
You can reset the health by connecting the battery to a pre/pre2/pixi and using Dr.Battery.
It was never done but a Veer battery was already reseted this way.
You seem to have the knowledge to do so.
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Old 03/02/2014, 05:20 PM   #32 (permalink)
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I went through some of your older threads on the forum and you've done fine. You can learn a lot from data sheets and what people have posted on the web. The only information I had that you probably haven't seen are research papers on battery charging. But they just try to explain the chemistry behind the behavior you already know.

I saw that posting where someone was able to reset their Veer battery. I guess I will be the first to try it with a Pre3 battery. I did some poking around already and identified the battery terminals on my Pre Plus. And I think I've got the terminals on the Pre 3 battery figured out. It looks as if they doubled up on the V+ and V- connectors as you suspected. The trick now is figuring out a good way to make some reliable connections to the battery and phone.

I'm doing this in my spare time so it will take a few weeks. I'll post my results when I get them.
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Old 03/03/2014, 02:17 AM   #33 (permalink)
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I guess I will be the first to try it with a Pre3 battery. I did some poking around already and identified the battery terminals on my Pre Plus. And I think I've got the terminals on the Pre 3 battery figured out. It looks as if they doubled up on the V+ and V- connectors as you suspected. The trick now is figuring out a good way to make some reliable connections to the battery and phone.

I'm doing this in my spare time so it will take a few weeks. I'll post my results when I get them.
Yes you are the first with the pre3. We are looking forward to your results.
Good luck and thanks for your analyzes and the approval of our findings.
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Old 03/03/2014, 03:55 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Regarding heat: I wonder how using something like this to move the heat to an area that isn't crammed between the phone and Touchstone would help?

xda-developers - View Single Post - Graphite Heat Sink for Cell Phones
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