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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by malpha View Post
    You're only stuck in that predicament because you bought a Pre 3. No one forced you to buy a Pre 3. You chose to buy it, which means you can choose to buy a device more suitable to your needs.
    I wish I could buy a Pre 3 ...

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
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    #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Mair View Post
    I am a musician ( not famous) and I hope I'm popular enough that people would steal my music ( that means your wanted and Good).
    That's a good outlook to have for a musician trying to gain publicity.

    Down here in Texas, there is a sub-genre of country commonly know as "Red Dirt" or just "Texas Country". Some of these artist go on and sign on with a big record label in Nashville, others seem content just touring around the state.

    Many of them encourage their fans to download and spread their music. One guy in particular, Aaron Watson, encourages the audience at his concerts to download his music and share it with friends. There have been several times when he will make certain tracks available for free on his website. He knows its going to happen, and its pointless to try and stop it. He expressly states that record sales are a very small part of his income, that he makes most of his money from live shows.

    He is also smart enough to know that the more people share his music, the more famous he will get. Then more people show up to his concerts, and then more people buy albums, tshirts, hats, and other merchandise.

    It is a strategy that has worked well for him, I haven't been to one of his shows in the last few years that wasn't sold out. He didn't fight people sharing his music, he grew more because of it, and now people buy his stuff anyways. I think many artists could stand to gain quite a bit if they were to have similar viewpoints as this.

    P.S. He is one of my favorites, check him out if you like. Aaron Watson :: Homepage
  3. #83  
    That's one philosophy, but not everyone's. If you're an established musician that's not gaining in popularity, then allowing people to freely distribute your music is not going to help you.

    I look at it like this. If I'm a musician, my music is what I create. It is my craft. If it were not for me, my music would not exist for other people to enjoy. Do I deserve compensation for creating something people want to enjoy? I think so. Should there be a limit on how much compensation I can make off of my creations? Well, I'm not a Communist, so no. My compensation should be proportionate to the popularity of my creation. So if I make a super-mega-hit that everyone in the world wants to listen to, I should make a super-mega amount of money.

    Bottom line is this: Play by the rules. If an artist says it's OK to distribute their music, fine. If not, then it's theft. Doesn't matter if you think the artist is charging too much, can afford the loss, etc. It's theft. And if an artist is unhappy with their chosen method of distribution, it is up to them to recognize that and possibly make a change, whether it be to lower their prices, choose different distributors, or release a few tracks for free. It's their stuff. They can do what they want with it, even if they make the wrong decisions.
    Touchscreens are a fad.
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by malpha View Post
    You're only stuck in that predicament because you bought a Pre 3. No one forced you to buy a Pre 3. You chose to buy it, which means you can choose to buy a device more suitable to your needs.
    [insert whiney pre-adolescent voice here]Oh reaaally?? You mean I'm free to get whatever I want and the thought police wont get me?? Calm down a bit and think about what I wrote. Because of Google's ROUTINE privacy invasion, and its intention to take that even further once its NFC solution comes fully online, and Apple's walled garden among other things, I have CHOSEN to vote w/ my $$ (IOW, protest in the most meaningful of ways) by not supporting their platform. So in case you couldn't read between the lines, I have, and do plan to exercise choice where my needs are concerned.

    Now, since it is widely agreed that the best platform is on underpowered hardware, so much so that it worked to its detriment, the logical thing to do would be to get web OS on better hardware. This is usually done through the official channels, but doesn't have to be and increasingly, is not.

    Does this mean you may have to decide which is more important to you - hardware or software? Yes.
    No! It means a host of things:
    • that flaws and deficiencies have to be addressed (hence the homebrew community)
    • that pressure has to be placed on HP/Palm to address our needs; afterall its our $ they're after
    • that the two (cutting edge hardware AND software) can and should coexist
    • that informed, demanding buyers today no longer have to settle for being dumb consumers

    It means so many things, if one would only expand his views or imagine the possibilities. I for one refuse to simply take what Im given and play good citizen because I understand that the boundaries must always be pushed. I understand, like the guys at XDA developers, that necessity is the mother of invention and that invention is generally a good thing.

    More importantly, I see this particular topic of ROMs for unintended hardware as a duty of sorts; improving the UX of our CE devices should be paramount. We are already doing it w/ the original Pre and web OS 2. Others have been crisscrossing Android, WM, etc., on a host of devices for years and WP7 is now game. There's also the issue of what one can do w/ his/her device. Whether its hacking Linux onto my old Tungsten, triple-booting my rig (7, Ubuntu, OS X) or flashing new/ experimental firmware on everything from a camera to a TV, its well within my right.

    Thanks for addressing the questions; I see where that went.
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by p41m3r View Post
    There's also the issue of what one can do w/ his/her device. Whether its hacking Linux onto my old Tungsten, triple-booting my rig (7, Ubuntu, OS X) or flashing new/ experimental firmware on everything from a camera to a TV, its well within my right.
    It is indeed well within your rights to do what you choose with hardware and software you have obtained legally. Such is the MetaDoctor.

    But just like corporations do not have the right to break the copyright law that allows open source software to exist and flourish, individuals do not have the right to break the copyright law that protects proprietary software (like webOS).

    So you can do what you like in the privacy of your home, and even distribute instructions on how to do what you like, but you can't redistribute the results of your hacking unless you have explicit redistribution rights to derivatives of all the inputs (e.g. if it's open source software).

    Such is also the MetaDoctor, and the insistence that end-users do it themselves rather than illegally redistribute software objects to which they have no redistribution rights.

    -- Rod
    Last edited by rwhitby; 04/12/2011 at 06:42 AM.
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by p41m3r View Post
    [insert whiney pre-adolescent voice here]Oh reaaally?? You mean I'm free to get whatever I want and the thought police wont get me?? Calm down a bit and think about what I wrote. Because of Google's ROUTINE privacy invasion, and its intention to take that even further once its NFC solution comes fully online, and Apple's walled garden among other things, I have CHOSEN to vote w/ my $$ (IOW, protest in the most meaningful of ways) by not supporting their platform. So in case you couldn't read between the lines, I have, and do plan to exercise choice where my needs are concerned.

    It means so many things, if one would only expand his views or imagine the possibilities. I for one refuse to simply take what Im given and play good citizen because I understand that the boundaries must always be pushed. I understand, like the guys at XDA developers, that necessity is the mother of invention and that invention is generally a good thing.

    Thanks for addressing the questions; I see where that went.
    I am neither a child nor the thought police, so get over yourself. If you want to mod your phone, mod it. People here do it as well. But if you're *breaking the law* in doing so, you're *breaking the law* to do, IJAF - whether it was because you felt HP did its job is irrelevant, unless you decide to counter-sue. Thinking HP and the law is going to care is what's childish.

    No one's getting paid modding, these are all volunteers. It is no one's "duty." So if you don't like how they volunteer their time, volunteer your own. Geo Holtz just settled with Sony, you can be the next.



    -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
    screwdestiny
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  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by malpha View Post
    The reason it is this way is because this is HP's property. If HP allows anyone to distribute their property, then their claim to copyright is eroded. It is similar to trademarks and when companies, for example, Xerox, try to encourage people to stop using xerox as a word for copy - Xerox isn't something they want their competitors to be able to put on boxes for their product, which they could do if Xerox didn't stake their trademark claim when it tried to enter the public lexicon.
    Disclaimer, I'm not a lawyer, but..

    Actually, copyright law is unlike trademark law in this way. You don't have to defend it or lose it, it's entirely up to you who you want to sue and ignoring infringement doesn't dilute the right to sue later.

    Let's use the terms that exist in the law. Copyright is an artificial monopoly granted by the people under law to the creator of a work. It is not property. This monopoly (at least in the US) was a tradeoff, restricting the rights of everyone but the creator of the work in an attempt to encourage the development of creative works so that they would end up in the public domain and enrich everyone. (*not* because it was believed people were entitled to this monopoly)

    Copyright infringement isn't theft, just like assault or bribery isn't theft. They're different laws and different terms exist for a reason. This is not to say any of them are good or acceptable, just that they're different and mixing terms muddies the waters in my opinion. Call a spade a spade.

    To reply to the thread in general:

    Now, we can argue about whether copyright as a set of laws is fair and good, but it is law. We in WebOS Internals have an interest in being law abiding and above board, and we don't plan on jeopardizing our integrity, reputation, or continued existence by breaking the law, even if it might make certain things more convenient.

    Further, anyone who's an advocate of Free Software (GPL, etc) should be aware that Free Software doesn't work without copyright. We in the group distribute our own software under these licenses, and the licenses have no force without copyright in the first place. Asking other people to respect the license on the software we distribute under copyright law while violating that law ourselves would be rather hypocritical..

    Regarding the ROMz scene, some of these software images are actually legal because they're based on the Android Open Source Project (yes, Android is open source) and do not include the proprietary Google experience bits. Unfortunately, webOS is largely proprietary, and just distributing the Open Source pieces in a software image wouldn't result in anything useful.

    Anyone worried that MetaDoctor is too hard for the average user can do something about it. If people want to make a tool that makes it easier to install modified versions of webOS on their own devices, that's entirely possible. If the energy being spent whining about lack of ROMs was instead put into creating a user friendly tool, we'd be that much closer to having it.

    I totally agree regarding the feeling of entitlement. If you want something, contribute to it. If you don't have the skill, sponsor / donate to someone who does or set a bounty on it. In the end, these things take time, so whoever wants them should be willing to put in the time or pay for someone else to. (or wait patiently for someone else to come up with a solution for their own reasons and share it)
    Last edited by destinal; 04/12/2011 at 11:12 AM. Reason: clarification
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Mair View Post
    True that, maybe if Palm didn't help out as much we'd see a more Jailbreaking type devs,

    I just wish Palm would let internals go a little bit further faster, ( like not waiting for doctors to come out and stuff, so that on day one patches and stuff are ready,
    What do you mean by "a more Jailbreaking type devs?" (webOS doesn't need exploits or jailbreaks to run homebrew) What do you think we're holding back that someone else would do?

    WebOS Internals is independent. We accept donations of support from anyone, including HP who generously contributed a new server recently. Making a donation, however, does NOT buy anyone the right to set our policies, and we don't hold back from developing the tools we want, or criticizing anyone including HP when we feel it's deserved. In short, we're the same group we've always been and it's a little offensive to imply that we're bought or biased.
  9. #89  
    i for one am glad this discussion is taking place here and that so many of us feel the same way about ethics. continual props to rod and the whole webosinternalz crew.
    Palm prē-ist.
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by p41m3r View Post
    Stuck in that predicament, like some of us are, would legality be your first or major concern? Would you settle in this case, and keep settling into the future, or would you push the boundaries of what is possible w/o regard to legality?
    The only people you hurt when you pirate apps are the developers. You don't hurt Palm/HP much, but you are STEALING from hard working developers.
    Arthur Thornton

    Former webOS DevRel Engineer at Palm, HP, and LG
    Former webOS app developer (built Voice Memos, Sparrow, and several homebrew apps and patches)
    Former blogger for webOS Nation and webOS Roundup
  11. #91  
    [QUOTE=tech_deck;2934816]So, you just admitted to committing actionable crimes in a forum in which the moderators have your valid email address in which they may be considered accomplices to the RIAA and the MPAA and a host of other oranizations.

    Wow. That was smart.[/QUOTE snitch
  12. #92  
    Wow so nobody who posted on this thread has never download illegally rather it be music,software etc.( yeah right ) .. and far as free music have u guys ever heard of a mixtapes ? Yeah artist promote them all the time its free music , albums , or a song .. Also what about the hello kitty,bugs bunny, garfield themes in preware did the creators of those give u all permission to theme out there characters ? NO THEY DID NOT


    Every one did at some point and time so stop acting like your better than everybody else
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by gangland View Post
    Also what about the hello kitty,bugs bunny, garfield themes in preware did the creators of those give u all permission to theme out there characters ? NO THEY DID NOT
    Feel free to contact the authors of those themes (none of which are part of WebOS Internals) and have the themes removed from the site on which there are distributed (which also is not related to WebOS Internals and does not run on our servers). Many of the themes on that site are also created from scratch, BTW.

    -- Rod
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by gangland View Post
    ...clip...so stop acting like your better than everybody else
    I didn't get that from those posting here.

    However;
    I did get the impression from posts here that it is better to handle software legally than to handle software illegally.
    Just call me Berd.
  15. #95  
    I love watching people rationalize why they engage in illegal activity. It reminds me why it is that lawyers make so much money (both defending the poor fool trying to rationalize illegal activity and pursuing the same fool).
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by rsanchez1 View Post
    I love watching people rationalize why they engage in illegal activity. It reminds me why it is that lawyers make so much money (both defending the poor fool trying to rationalize illegal activity and pursuing the same fool).
    Actually, the rational of, "everyone else does it" has always been fairly common. However, that doesn't invalidate the law. "Everyone" may speed, but it won't help you if you're pulled over and the officer writes the ticket.

    Which, getting back to the original post, is why these things aren't posted. It's one thing to do "stuff" on your own, but when a site or organization starts advocating it, then companies with a large legal staff, may get interested. While such a company might not actually follow up with legal action, why would this site, webOSinternals, or anyone else risk it?
    Richard Neff

    My tutorials on WebOS development: Beyond 'Hello World!' | Getting Started - WebOS Development

    My apps: Percent Table | SierraPapa
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