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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by DanPLC View Post
    While this is a correct analogy... I think I have a better one:

    There are 2 people:

    1) A person walks into a bank and steals a bag full of money.

    2) A person prints counterfeit money.

    I think most people would agree that person #1 has stolen money. And while person #2 hasn't stolen anything, I think most people would agree that they are performing an illegal action. Both actions result in the person being in possession of money they shouldn't have.

    It's the same with software piracy. People are creating copies of the software without being authorized to do so. Just because they don't walk into a store to get it, they're still performing an illegal (and unethical) action of creating a copy.

    So the question for people pirating software, would you print your own money if you could? And would you do it if you knew you couldn't get caught (like is the case with most software piracy)?

    Actually I disagree. Anyone counterfitting perfectly would be reducing the value of real money - in effect they would have stolen from anyone doing real work by devaluing the value of the money in circulation.

    In a similar but slightly different way - imagine that they did clone your car. Your car's resale value would plummet as would the price of a new car. Eventually the makers of cars would stop making them because there was no value to make them.

    Furthermore - imagine that people wanted new cars still but the makers didn't have as many sales because of the copies - they might increase the cost of new cars and even try to put copy protection mechanisms that might prevent you making a formerly legal backup of your car in case a crash took it away.

    There are huge costs to all of us and theft is a valid word - the theft is not of the object itself but of the potential value, the future value, and the usefulness of media that is unprotected being slowly eroded.
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    #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Mair View Post
    No Precentral isn't about all that and that's a good thing. But it being illegal doesn't stop every thing else on the internet from being ripped off and hacked so why is webos any different?.

    I haven't looked for illegal stuff nor will I. But if it was any good I'm sure it would be all over the place and talked about a lot more.
    I call bull****. You state that 'every thing else' on the net is being ripped off, then state 'why is webos different', and then prove you are lying by stating 'you haven't looked'. How can you say 'webos is different' (not being ripped off) if you haven't looked?? I think you are sniffing around here for someone to tell you where and how because your looking efforts failed. Apparently, you don't have any high friends in low places... Good luck with that.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by Unclevanya View Post
    Actually I disagree. Anyone counterfitting perfectly would be reducing the value of real money - in effect they would have stolen from anyone doing real work by devaluing the value of the money in circulation.
    What in my statement were you disagreeing with? It seems like you're arguing against piracy which is what I was doing. Or am I misunderstanding you?
    Quick Post: The quick way to post messages and photos to Twitter & Facebook (video link)
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  4. #64  
    hey expect some help & guidance, yet get 15 use the search function, 5 if you can't follow directions you shouldn't be trying this. 2 that question is answer in a few other forums keep looking (there are 1000 of post to read thru). That's discouraging to someone wanting to try. Not 1 reply with a link to where they should look. This newbie then decides to give up. They thought they would get help like they see others getting so they took a chance.
    Which is to be expected, honestly. A lot of times when people post errors it is because....they didn't follow the directions. Which is why the response is to....follow the directions. A lot of times when people post errors it is because they didn't look at the last page or even the first, which is why the response is....search or read the first post.

    I guess we have a different definition of try and effort or maybe it's been a long time since people on this board have been in a university. But if I go to my professor and ask a question that I should be able to find in the Course Notes, he's going to tell me to go and read the Course Notes. And if I tell him that I read the notes, then he's going to tell me to read pass the basic priniciple and look at the specifics that are discovered further down in the Course Notes because he wrote the Course Notes, he knows what it's in the Course Notes, and he knows that the answer to my question is in the Course Notes. Now, I can 1) go cry to my friends who took the time to read the Course Notes because I think they owe me something (entitlement), 2) not read the Course Notes properly and fail (laziness), or 3) read the Course Notes again until I see what the professor said (try).

    Others get help because:

    1) They're not asking something that has been asked a gajillion times already.
    2) They're asking questions properly.

    I mean, I feel like you all have zero idea of what exactly all these people do with their lives. They have real jobs. That have real families. I suspect they sleep every so often when they are *not* working on 15 different things in the webOS world. If you think they are supposed to be nice and helpful to your basic little questions that have been answered ten times in the last five pages and are wasting what little time they have, then I really don't know what to say to you.
    Last edited by malpha; 04/11/2011 at 11:48 AM.
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  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by malpha View Post
    Which is to be expected, honestly. A lot of times when people post errors it is because....they didn't follow the directions. Which is why the response is to....follow the directions. A lot of times when people post errors it is because they didn't look at the last page or even the first, which is why the response is....search or read the first post.

    I guess we have a different definition of try and effort or maybe it's been a long time since people on this board have been in a university. But if I go to my professor and ask a question that I should be able to find in the Course Notes, he's going to tell me to go and read the Course Notes. And if I tell him that I read the notes, then he's going to tell me to read pass the basic priniciple and look at the specifics that are discovered further down in the Course Notes because he wrote the Course Notes, he knows what it's in the Course Notes, and he knows that the answer to my question is in the Course Notes. Now, I can 1) go cry to my friends who took the time to read the Course Notes because I think they owe me something (entitlement), 2) not read the Course Notes properly and fail (laziness), or 3) read the Course Notes again until I see what the professor said (try).

    Others get help because:

    1) They're not asking something that has been asked a gajillion times already.
    2) They're asking questions properly.

    I mean, I feel like you all have zero idea of what exactly all these people do with their lives. They have real jobs. That have real families. I suspect they sleep every so often when they are *not* working on 15 different things in the webOS world. If you think they are supposed to be nice and helpful to your basic little questions that have been answered ten times in the last five pages and are wasting what little time they have, then I really don't know what to say to you.
    some of what you say is true. Yet I have to disagree with you when you say they get answers because they don't ask the same question that's been asked repeatedly. I see repeated questions all the time and they get answered repeatedly.

    I do understand what they go through & I know they have real lives also. It's not just up to the developers to answer all the questions. That's what the forum is for so we all get involved to help not just leave everything on the dev's. If not we may as well just PM them personally instead of use the open forums. I've seen popular names that aren't dev's get answers to things that have been update in the OP or clarified in the WIKI. Because they are known by everyone the don't get sent to the wiki or search bar, yet the solution is there.

    Heck some people don't even know the wiki is a totally different site, without a link to the wiki posted for them. I myself try to answer if I can or post a link. Doesn't matter to me if it was asked or not. That's what a community is all about.

    Yes I know there are some who don't read at all & don't try to search. but you can tell by the number of post if they are fairly new & need guidance or not (excluding the +1 & bump posters who have high numbers of post).

    Anyway not to change the topic at hand, I'm sure there are illegal things for webOS. Just not here in this community.
  6. #66  
    If you don't know the wiki is a different site, that's kind of your own fault. Someone says webosinternals wiki to me, I go to google and type in webosinternals wiki.

    A lot of times, it always has to do with the manner in which you ask and who is around when you ask. If someone is around who is not following Rod's instructions that users post full logs and read the directions, then your question will probably get answered, but this is not really the proper way and is once again encouraging people not to seek out answers for themselves. If your post is full of grammatical errors, then you're probably going to be ignored.

    You can be a community without pandering to people who refuse to follow the correct process, in fact, it is generally the best way - otherwise what you have is chaos.

    Anyone can do the meta-doctor if they try, with the information that is available on this site provided they set aside the time and muster up the patience to do so. It is what it is.
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  7. #67  
    I don't understand this thread. This is how this unique forum works. If you think you need something different then you can find it with google/bing or something else.
    EDIT: We work with the manufacturer instead of against.
  8. #68  
    I didn't know the wiki was on another site when I first got here. I was looking for it here on the site that said to read the wiki. I went to the forum home to webos developer forums to internals looking for the wiki...hey call me dumb, but it took me a while to find out it wasn't on p|c. Sometimes I get better results from google search than I do from here. The results from google are for p|c but more of what I'm looking for. Sometimes a search here gives any post that even mentions 1 word of what you are searching.
    Last edited by bodyshop; 04/11/2011 at 01:22 PM.
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by bodyshop View Post
    I didn't know the wiki was on another site when I first got here. I was looking for it here on the site that said to read the wiki. I went to the forum home to webos developer forums to internals looking for the wiki...hey call me dumb, but it took me a while to find out it wasn't on p|c. Sometimes I get better results from google search than I do from here. The results from google are for p|c but more of what I'm looking for. Sometimes a search here gives any post that even mentions 1 word of what you are searching.
    Yes, the search function here needs to be tweaked and I do use Google to search here a lot as well, primarily cause it's easy to search from your browser bar. The best thing to do is to go to use the Search This Thread option if you think you're i the right thread or use the Advanced Search and tell it to return posts instead of threads or to search only the titles of threads instead of posts as well.
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  10. #70  
    I am thankful for the ethics that are prevalent in the homebrew community. It not only makes for a better product for the end user but benefits the platform as a whole. I'm also thankful that first Palm and now HP have been supportive of such ventures. That support is born out of a trust and respect for the work that people like WebOS Internals and Jason Robitaille produce. I don't think this community would be as passionate without these ethics and guidelines.
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by bodyshop View Post
    It's like being in a new building wanting to use the bathroom. Of course there is a sign on the door, but is one on every floor of just one for the whole building on 3rd floor. Do you run around looking on every door on every floor, because everyone else here knows where it's at or do you ask. You ask & when you can't get the answer from asking, you may say the H*%# with it & go outside & pee in the parking lot (illegal). LOL
    That is hilarious and a rather good analogy.
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  12. #72  
    I went from a posting on AndroidCentral to this thread, and they are somewhat related. The Blog post was regarding the general question of whether or not you should be rooting your Android or not. The general message was that 1) you should research and be fully prepared for what you are getting into, 2) you should not just expect to jump into things without a willingness to work and learn because 3) it is not as easy as those with experience make it seem. My wife has an Evo, but there are so many little things that it COULD do, but cannot without rooting. Almost all of those things are available from very talented people right here, without needing to break into the phone, whether one considers it legal or ethical or otherwise. And with a willingness to learn and follow directions, this community will help (even if it is maddening at times to search this forum at times, thanks for the suggestions Malpha). That is why I remain a WebOS user, even when my wife can tease me about the physical quality of her device versus mine (as I discreetly tuck the broken spring back up under the slider each time I need to type).
  13. #73  
    It's funny, I was just writing about this at my work. We're dealing with security issues and I brought up HP and Homebrew, and I said that the work that the WebOS internals community have put into the pre must give them a sense of pride and ownership with the Pre and even though HP and Palm cannot offer any kind of official support, their un official support probably helps to foster that bond.

    And my guess is that if anyone did anything malicious with a patch or a homebrew app, the WebOS internals crew would be on it faster than HP ever could. Keeping the Homebrew software safe and efficient is a high priority for Internals, and in return, this helps HP.

    My argument to my company was that it's really important to befriend modders. They can be your biggest supporters, AND security defenders.
  14. #74  
    So, you just admitted to committing actionable crimes in a forum in which the moderators have your valid email address in which they may be considered accomplices to the RIAA and the MPAA and a host of other oranizations.

    Wow. That was smart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Mair View Post
    I know its illegal to distribute modified doctors and do all that crazy stuff. I understand why its illegal, but my question is. Why do we care. As long as you aren't making a profit off it.

    I buy lots of stuff. But I also download mp3 and movies, games, books and so on and. So what makes webos and HP's stuff any different.

    I'm not asking anyone to do this just starting convo.

    I don't know about jailbreaking for iphone but is that againt the law?.
  15. #75  
    Jailbreaking the iphone is NOT against the law. Not in the US. Court case already covered that.
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by Vociferous View Post
    Jailbreaking the iphone is NOT against the law. Not in the US. Court case already covered that.
    What's the U.S??? I thought apple WAS the law??

    -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by Vociferous View Post
    It's funny, I was just writing about this at my work. We're dealing with security issues and I brought up HP and Homebrew, and I said that the work that the WebOS internals community have put into the pre must give them a sense of pride and ownership with the Pre and even though HP and Palm cannot offer any kind of official support, their un official support probably helps to foster that bond.

    And my guess is that if anyone did anything malicious with a patch or a homebrew app, the WebOS internals crew would be on it faster than HP ever could. Keeping the Homebrew software safe and efficient is a high priority for Internals, and in return, this helps HP.

    My argument to my company was that it's really important to befriend modders. They can be your biggest supporters, AND security defenders.
    Very well said. Anyone remember that phony Govnah that made the feeds? It was there for like an hour...
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by sketch42 View Post
    What's the U.S??? I thought apple WAS the law??..
    if you own an Iphone apple is the law...LOL
  19. #79  
    Loved post #20 (Psychonaut); its among the more sane and rational on the topic. Looking at some of the replies, I cant help but think of the double-thinking citizens of Oceana, always eager to point out thought crimes. They never question, just obey. I wonder if they've ever came across a 'law' that did not sit right w/ their conscience or sense of ethics.

    Anyway, having made the decision to vote w/ my wallet come summer, the following may or may not be an issue once the Pre 3 is released and its ecosystem takes a few more steps at maturity. My issue over the past year, however, has been the state of the hardware that web OS runs on. As such, I was on a quest lately - even considered raising some serious cash - to achieve the end of booting what is arguably the most polished mobile os on Android devices. The idea is single-boot as I'm not at all interested in other platforms (for privacy, security and control reasons).

    For now its back to being just a dream but as devices such as the Galaxy S2 hit the scene this summer, the feeling of being outdated - or more likely underpowered - may be here all over again. It wont be as pressing w/ the beefy Pre 3 hardware, but you guys get the point... cutting edge os on cutting edge hardware.

    Stuck in that predicament, like some of us are, would legality be your first or major concern? Would you settle in this case, and keep settling into the future, or would you push the boundaries of what is possible w/o regard to legality?
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by p41m3r View Post
    Stuck in that predicament, like some of us are, would legality be your first or major concern? Would you settle in this case, and keep settling into the future, or would you push the boundaries of what is possible w/o regard to legality?
    You're only stuck in that predicament because you bought a Pre 3. No one forced you to buy a Pre 3. You chose to buy it, which means you can choose to buy a device more suitable to your needs.

    Does this mean you may have to decide which is more important to you - hardware or software? Yes.

    -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
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