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  1. #41  
    911 Operator: "911. What's your emergency?"

    John: "I've been robbed!"

    911 Operator: "What did they take?"

    John: "My computers and my phones!"

    911 Operator: "Meh. So what? With all that pirated software/music/movies you had downloaded, you're not losing anything"

    John: "But, my computers and phones!"

    911 Operator: "The thief liked your stuff, and thinks you're overpaid and can afford to just replace it. Please don't call 911 for non-emergencies." Click.
    I see pandas.
  2. #42  
    I understand and standby not supporting piracy, but what I do not understand at all is why custom ROMs cannot be made available for those who do not have the technical ability to update their Pre minuses to webOS 2.1.0. What's the difference between all the scripts that enable the same end result and simply downloading pre-cooked doctor files which the average Joe/Jane could use to update their Pre minus. I understand the legal difference, but ethically how are they any different?
    Pre3 (AT&T meta-doctored to ROW) webOS 2.2.4 build 3175
    TouchPad WiFi (32GB) - webOS 3.0.5 build 86
    App Catalog (US) - Vodafone (India)

    Treo 180 > 270 > 600 > 650 > 680 > Pre+ > Pre2 > Pre+ > Pre3 & tPad
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    This reply nailed it.

    We (WebOS Internals) could do many illegal things if we wanted to. We know exactly how to do them and have the means to access and distribute those things widely. We have no restrictions placed upon us by anyone (including HP) and have no strings attached in any of our interactions with any person or company.

    We simply choose not to do illegal things. Other hacking groups could do the same if they put their minds to it, but they usually just choose the easy, illegal way.

    -- Rod
    And that is the difference, it's not that it could happen but the people that can make it happen on webOS respect the product too much to do this.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjay View Post
    I understand and standby not supporting piracy, but what I do not understand at all is why custom ROMs cannot be made available for those who do not have the technical ability to update their Pre minuses to webOS 2.1.0. What's the difference between all the scripts that enable the same end result and simply downloading pre-cooked doctor files which the average Joe/Jane could use to update their Pre minus. I understand the legal difference, but ethically how are they any different?
    There is no technical ability needed to update your Pre- to 2.1.0. All you need is reading comprehension and patience. I have no idea why people prefer to come across as helpless and unintelligent rather than follow directions.

    As for the legal and ethical difference, there are no ethics involved in making a script. HP does not mind if you edit the software...you just can't distribute the original. As such, you have no moral obligation not to help someone edit their phone, which is what a script is.

    -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
    screwdestiny
    PSN Twitter Last.FM
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by malpha View Post
    There is no technical ability needed to update your Pre- to 2.1.0. All you need is reading comprehension and patience. I have no idea why people prefer to come across as helpless and unintelligent rather than follow directions.
    Maybe 'technical' was a poor choice of word, but the fact is that although you and I may find this stuff simple, the vast majority of people do not and therefore will not even try it. Whereas, if all it took was a 'doctor', then more people might be apt to try it.

    Quote Originally Posted by malpha View Post
    As for the legal and ethical difference, there are no ethics involved in making a script. HP does not mind if you edit the software...you just can't distribute the original. As such, you have no moral obligation not to help someone edit their phone, which is what a script is.
    That is exactly my point, that if HP has no problem in people modifying the files and even helping others do it, then why do they have a problem in someone just compiling the edited files for someone else. Specially if there is no money transaction taking place. Also, the point I was making is, that helping someone edit the files may be legally different from providing the edited files, but ethically there is no difference between the two.
    Pre3 (AT&T meta-doctored to ROW) webOS 2.2.4 build 3175
    TouchPad WiFi (32GB) - webOS 3.0.5 build 86
    App Catalog (US) - Vodafone (India)

    Treo 180 > 270 > 600 > 650 > 680 > Pre+ > Pre2 > Pre+ > Pre3 & tPad
  6. #46  
    Well, ethically there is a difference, because in one instance you're doing something you know is illegal and in another you are not. Now, the *outcome* is the same, but the outcome is not what's important - it's the procedure.

    The reason it is this way is because this is HP's property. If HP allows anyone to distribute their property, then their claim to copyright is eroded. It is similar to trademarks and when companies, for example, Xerox, try to encourage people to stop using xerox as a word for copy - Xerox isn't something they want their competitors to be able to put on boxes for their product, which they could do if Xerox didn't stake their trademark claim when it tried to enter the public lexicon.

    Further, if one does not even want to attempt something because it requires putting in some effort, why should the people who do attempt make it easy for them? It wasn't easy for the people who put it together to learn what was needed, why is it wrong for them to ask people to put forth the bare minimum of effort to do something? I'm not asking anyone to know right off the bat to do something, but at least you can ask questions in the appropriate manner and at least TRY. To be blunt, people have this blockage that makes them unwilling to read, unwilling to learn new things, unwilling to ask questions, and unwilling to take risks and this blockage is more commonly known as "laziness" and "entitlement." I see no reason to encourage either.
    Last edited by malpha; 04/10/2011 at 03:06 PM.
    screwdestiny
    PSN Twitter Last.FM
  7. #47  
    If people began distributing the original files legally (assuming HP would ever make that legal), what's to stop someone from making changes to those files that will steal your passwords as you type them?

    HP is not just covering their rear when making distribution illegal, they're covering yours, too.
  8. #48  
    I personally didn't find it "simple". I did, however, find a simplified version (I can't get the link to work, it keeps saying it's broken so the title is " Sprint webOS 2.1.0 Upgrade - simplified" you'll have to search for it) (Mind you I never bothered trying the other way as I waited until that thread came up, as I was waiting for more feedback whether or not it was worth the upgrade) It's simply a matter of doing your research before diving in, same as overclocking. There's a reason why it was never officially released. It's an unsupported upgrade to a phone that was never meant for it to be on.

    As for your second point on the ethical difference, you're right.....not much difference. But more of a legallity or bureaucratic red tape.

    The point is, you can't spoonfeed people into modifying their phones, because if something happens to their phone, they are going to want to blame you for whatever is wrong with it. If you simply lay out the information and tell them what to do (without doing it yourself) then they have no one to blame, but themselves.

    http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pr...implified.html
    Last edited by sledge007; 04/10/2011 at 03:52 PM. Reason: pasted the right link this time :) and the link doesn't work, so put in the title of the thread
    Due to the cancellation of the penny, I no longer give 2 about anything. I may however, give a nickel
  9. #49  
    I think a lot of effort has gone into building up trust between Palm and the Homebrew community. Palm could easily have entered the same arms race Apple finds themselves in by locking down the OS to stop third parties circumventing their walled garden. Equally the Homebrew community could have started pirating and distributing apps on an epic scale. If either side decided to abuse this trust I think we would all lose.

    I do wonder what might happen if when WebOS starts to surge up in market share.
  10. #50  
    I'm constantly amazed by the fervor that this type of question generates. It's simple - there are illegal things available for the Pre family of devices. Look no further than at the Sprint 2.0.1 ROMs that made it into the wild.

    Reality is this - it's easier to make modifications and changes to webOS than to many other systems - and it's easier to be sure that those mods are not harmful to your phone or your data security because the mods are done in a way that is legal and above board.

    Furthermore - this is a smaller market than many and incentives for illegal activity are lower consequently.

    My personal opinion is that people who think that making copies of music is not hurting anyone are using faulty logic and self-dulusion to justify their actions - the same for movies.
  11. #51  
    crackberry gets leaked "roms" all the time.. and posts them front page
  12. #52  
    I understand that all the mods here operate under "The law is the law" idea, but really, HP gave Internals a server, I'm sure they wouldn't mind distribution of the Doctors, that really makes no sense, even if it is illegal.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by MekkelRichards View Post
    I understand that all the mods here operate under "The law is the law" idea, but really, HP gave Internals a server, I'm sure they wouldn't mind distribution of the Doctors, that really makes no sense, even if it is illegal.
    If HP wanted their intellectual property to be freely redistributed, they would have licensed it in a way that allows for such. They have not done so.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
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    #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by Syndil View Post
    There is never an excuse for piracy. Most people think, well, it's so easy, how can it be illegal? Or how is it hurting anyone? But piracy is theft. Plain and simple. It's no different than stealing someone's wallet. You can disagree, but you'd be wrong.


    Although



  15. #55  
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by i_maq View Post

    While this is a correct analogy... I think I have a better one:

    There are 2 people:

    1) A person walks into a bank and steals a bag full of money.

    2) A person prints counterfeit money.

    I think most people would agree that person #1 has stolen money. And while person #2 hasn't stolen anything, I think most people would agree that they are performing an illegal action. Both actions result in the person being in possession of money they shouldn't have.

    It's the same with software piracy. People are creating copies of the software without being authorized to do so. Just because they don't walk into a store to get it, they're still performing an illegal (and unethical) action of creating a copy.

    So the question for people pirating software, would you print your own money if you could? And would you do it if you knew you couldn't get caught (like is the case with most software piracy)?
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  17. i_maq's Avatar
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    #57  
    Co Founder of Apple Steve Woz prints his own money

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    #58  
    Woz buys the sheets from the US Treasury!
    Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

    Palm III -> Palm V -> Viewsonic Pocket PC V36 -> Treo 650 -> Samsung i760 ->
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  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by malpha View Post
    Further, if one does not even want to attempt something because it requires putting in some effort, why should the people who do attempt make it easy for them? It wasn't easy for the people who put it together to learn what was needed, why is it wrong for them to ask people to put forth the bare minimum of effort to do something? I'm not asking anyone to know right off the bat to do something, but at least you can ask questions in the appropriate manner and at least TRY. To be blunt, people have this blockage that makes them unwilling to read, unwilling to learn new things, unwilling to ask questions, and unwilling to take risks and this blockage is more commonly known as "laziness" and "entitlement." I see no reason to encourage either.
    you make a good point. Yet you must think of the newbie who reads post after post of dev's giving each other help. Example "did you try this? Yes and I got thist error XXXXXXX. Ok open up webOS dr & extract the XXX file from there & overwrite the corrupted file". Newbies see this & think great, this community helps each other. Now we know you must know how to extract a file from the WebOS Dr to do this, since instructions were not given in the example. But a newbie sees this as help & it inspires them to take dive at trying something like you say in your post. Something goes wrong or they hit a roadblock & ask a question (like you say they should). They expect some help & guidance, yet get 15 use the search function, 5 if you can't follow directions you shouldn't be trying this. 2 that question is answer in a few other forums keep looking (there are 1000 of post to read thru). That's discouraging to someone wanting to try. Not 1 reply with a link to where they should look. This newbie then decides to give up. They thought they would get help like they see others getting so they took a chance. They are the ones that would rather have illegal stuff distibuted because the want, lets say 2.1 on they're device. We ( you & I ) know it's more to it, but there are many newbies that want to take a dive too. They don't know much, but asking questions is how you learn. It's them that will find something illegal & post it here thinking they are helping others out so they don't have to ask questions, or look for help. I'm not saying you treat them like this , but wanted to reply to that part of your post ( no offense intended).

    It's like being in a new building wanting to use the bathroom. Of course there is a sign on the door, but is one on every floor of just one for the whole building on 3rd floor. Do you run around looking on every door on every floor, because everyone else here knows where it's at or do you ask. You ask & when you can't get the answer from asking, you may say the H*%# with it & go outside & pee in the parking lot (illegal). LOL
    Last edited by bodyshop; 04/11/2011 at 09:02 AM.
  20. #60  
    @bodyshop excellent reply! Bravo
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