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  1. #41  
    Basically if the OP and those like him on this subject changed their objections from one of high minded morality to just personal feelings and opinions we wouldn't argue that stance. But I suspect this post was meant to be slightly hyperbolic to draw interest.
  2. #42  
    agreed; and there is nothing wrong with stating that it is bad business policy to tick off your fanbase and to re-neg on statements and assurances given to your customers. Just trying to put the lawsuit nonsense to bed.
  3.    #43  
    Was the so-called "promise" by HP in writing by anybody other than journalists and bloggers?

    No.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by ••dbdoinit View Post
    Was the so-called "promise" by HP in writing by anybody other than journalists?

    No.
    Basically it doesn't have to be in writing, but we can agree that these promises are not enforceable (although i can't speak for what foreign (non-US) courts would do.
  5. #45  
    yes it was. it was "written" into the feature lists of the phones for a long time i am pretty sure.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by gnark View Post
    yes it was. it was "written" into the feature lists of the phones for a long time i am pretty sure.
    if thats true it puts an interesting twist on things...
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by jthore View Post
    "If they are smart, they will make a significant goodwill gesture to current users, even if only for PRPRPR $purposes$. $But$ $using$ $cold$ $logic$, $why$ $please$ $the$ $minority$ at the expense of the majority? With that reasoning, why not make the OS backward compatible to the Treo?"

    Begging your pardon, but just what MAJORITY are you referring to? The one that doesn't exist at his point in time but that HP thinks is out there??

    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but was the the officially named "WebOS" the OS that ran on Treos and I just never knew it? Or did "WebOS" begin its life on the Pre? (and without any promises to Treo owners I might add)

    1) Yes on the first paragraph. The majority that they want, not the loyal minority (and I am a long time Palm user, so I'm one of them) which hasn't gotten Palm where they needed to be. They don't need to be #1, but there is no survival if they continue with a sub 4% marketshare. Something had to change, and in our hearts we all know that. Unless we are content with the status quo, arguing that HP shouldn't make changes is almost insane. No argument that they have (in a PRPRPR $sense$) $handled$ $themselves$ $VERY$ $poorly$. $It$ $remains$ $to$ $be$ $seen$ $if$ $their$ $product$ $strategy$ $proves$ $to$ $be$ $poor$ $as$ $well$.

    Some on these forums get the two confused.

    If they can't at least double marketshare in the intermediate term, there will be no webOS of any kind.

    2) The Treo operating system was PalmOS, not webOS.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by Courousant View Post
    A promise is not enforceable. A "contract" in legal terms: is a bargained for exchange between two parties. So their promise to give 2.0 would only be enforceable if you gave up something in exchange for it (paid money, extended your contract, etc). As deesugar pointed out. You probably had bought the phone and entered into or extended your contract long before the 2.0 promise was delivered.

    *just to avoid getting called out: Technically, a promise can be binding (under the doctrine of estoppel) if you justifiably relied upon it to your detriment. Before you get excited, justifiable reliance is very rarely found to apply. The promise has to be specific (they most likely would have to promise it by a date certain), you would have to show you relied upon that promise to your detriment (newsflash: not buying an evo is not going to be found by a court to be your detriment).
    I'm not a lawyer and I would tend to agree with your comment regarding enforceability in this instance as it pertains to a legal contract; but I also believe that when a promise is *published* that it becomes something more than just a promise that doesn't have to be kept. At the very least, it becomes an obligation, imo.

    As I recall, a timeframe was also part of that published promise though no specific date was identified.

    Your remark as to when I bought my phone is absolutely IRRELEVANT.
  9. #49  
    but still i am pretty sure too that there are other things written into the "terms and conditions" that frees palm (or whoever bought it) from those so called promises as i said.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by verwon View Post
    I can understand, those that bought phones on contract or for full price off contract have a right to be upset with Palm.

    Makes me glad I bought mine cheap and used!


    Sent from my eVo
    Reminds me when I was a basketball coach and offered to take the whole team out to ice-cream if they won the game (I was going to take them out no matter what but I was trying to motivate them). And this one kid with a blasé attitude interrupted with, "I don't care, my mom is going to take me out for ice-cream anyway"

  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by jthore View Post
    I'm not a lawyer and I would tend to agree with your comment regarding enforceability in this instance as it pertains to a legal contract; but I also believe that when a promise is *published* that it becomes something more than just a promise that doesn't have to be kept. At the very least, it becomes an obligation, imo.

    As I recall, a timeframe was also part of that published promise though no specific date was identified.

    Your remark as to when I bought my phone is absolutely IRRELEVANT.
    the "publication" of a promise doesn't make it a contract. It would still be unenforceable as a contract with only the doctrine of estoppel to fall back on (as previously elaborated).

    Again, the date of your purchase is RELEVANT (not sure why we are using caps there) because it tells us whether that promise was part of your contract or not. If you had already purchased your phone, what consideration (legal term) did you give in order to enforce that promise? If it was part of a spec sheet at the time of your purchase, that may be a completely different story.
  12. #52  
    as it was said, HP/Palm owe us nothing, in return we owe them nothing either.
    One of the biggest and best things any company can do is create word of mouth advertising. Rule of thumb, for every one person screaming bloody blue murder about this whole legacy issue, there are 9 more who feel exactly the same way.
    they wont voice it, but they will do exactly the same thing as the people who are screaming. What that is, well, NOT BUY Pre 3's. or any other bloody HP/Palm product.
    Do I believe this is justified, partially, i am an early adopter, first in my town to get one, my understanding is this, 10 sold out of this local store, 9 were returned for bad build with in the first two months. Mine is the only one that did not go back. now I am wondering if these people used em as hockey pucks lolol but it says a lot. 90% return rate. Pretty damn high. Software promises, not full filled. True, some are not Palms fault.

    Now saying all that, my wife had another phone, an htc dream, they refused to do the os update as well.. Rogers her carrier, ended up giving her a BB 9600 i think for shipping costs, which they ended up paying.
    I personally think the web os is the way to go. I just have a problem with my carrier not having even the pre plus let alone the pre 2, and little to no hope for a pre 3 either based on what has happened in the last year or so.
    i am going to BB. Not what i want, but really, what choice do i have? forget the so called broken promises, I just can not wait until "the coming months".
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by Courousant View Post
    Again, the date of your purchase is RELEVANT (not sure why we are using caps there) because it tells us whether that promise was part of your contract or not. If you had already purchased your phone, what consideration (legal term) did you give in order to enforce that promise? If it was part of a spec sheet at the time of your purchase, that may be a completely different story.
    absolutely.
  14. #54  
    I disagree.

    I just sent them my Ferrari order form on Saturday.
    I see pandas.
  15. #55  
    I think the "promises" that were made rise to the same level as any advertising claim. The fact is some of these have been used to launch class action lawsuits. Does anyone remember when the monitor industry was hit with class action suits for their diagonal measurements? They often included an area of the screen which couldn't be used for video - sometimes this was even covered with the bezel. The industry was found guilty of deceptive advertising despite the fact that anyone could take a measurement and see that the numbers were just numbers and not absolutely real in the sense of the image size available.

    The point is that the legal obligations of a company do often extend to things that are spec and advertising and not really "promised" in contractual terms. However - legal obligations only become clear when a court rules. By that time the pragmatic practical implications to each of us will be long past mattering if this even comes to court.

    The best possible outcome would be for HP to suddenly find a way to make good on the old promise - but seems doubtful that this will occur. The next best is for them to make some option for upgrades to be more feasible - but for many of us in contracts that seems far fetched.

    The worst outcome is for people like us to feel they lied and they used us and they intended to screw us all along. Damage control is needed... but I hear none from their official spokespeople. This is not good in my mind. The lack of communication compounds the problem - it's as though they are trying to wait out the storm and hope it all blows away while some stew and boil over and leave.

    <sigh>
  16.    #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by Unclevanya View Post
    The worst outcome is for people like us to feel they lied and they used us and they intended to screw us all along. Damage control is needed... but I hear none from their official spokespeople. This is not good in my mind. The lack of communication compounds the problem - it's as though they are trying to wait out the storm and hope it all blows away while some stew and boil over and leave.

    <sigh>
    Why does anybody seriously expect a mega-monster with billions and billions of dollars to give two doggy-poos about a few thousand customers?
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by Unclevanya View Post
    I think the "promises" that were made rise to the same level as any advertising claim. The fact is some of these have been used to launch class action lawsuits. Does anyone remember when the monitor industry was hit with class action suits for their diagonal measurements? They often included an area of the screen which couldn't be used for video - sometimes this was even covered with the bezel. The industry was found guilty of deceptive advertising despite the fact that anyone could take a measurement and see that the numbers were just numbers and not absolutely real in the sense of the image size available.

    The point is that the legal obligations of a company do often extend to things that are spec and advertising and not really "promised" in contractual terms. However - legal obligations only become clear when a court rules. By that time the pragmatic practical implications to each of us will be long past mattering if this even comes to court.

    The best possible outcome would be for HP to suddenly find a way to make good on the old promise - but seems doubtful that this will occur. The next best is for them to make some option for upgrades to be more feasible - but for many of us in contracts that seems far fetched.

    The worst outcome is for people like us to feel they lied and they used us and they intended to screw us all along. Damage control is needed... but I hear none from their official spokespeople. This is not good in my mind. The lack of communication compounds the problem - it's as though they are trying to wait out the storm and hope it all blows away while some stew and boil over and leave.

    <sigh>
    This is only applicable if that was put in advertisements or otherwise used to induce you to buy the product. Again, i am not certain, but i think these "promises" were made during interviews, and were made after most, if not all of us had purchased the product. (correct me if I am mistaken, as someone has said 2.0 may have been included in a spec sheet. I haven't seen that, but if true that would change my assessment).

    Otherwise, inapplicable situations.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by ••dbdoinit View Post
    Why does anybody seriously expect a mega-monster with billions and billions of dollars to give two doggy-poos about a few thousand customers?
    I don't know where you get a few thousand customers from - but each of those customers represents a word of mouth opportunity or a word of mouth casualty. At this point I no longer have any faith telling people to buy into the webOS ecosystem since I know it lost the major advantage of not being fragmented and now is just another OS with a fragmented development landscape and one with a very small market share.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by Courousant View Post
    This is only applicable if that was put in advertisements or otherwise used to induce you to buy the product. Again, i am not certain, but i think these "promises" were made during interviews, and were made after most, if not all of us had purchased the product. (correct me if I am mistaken, as someone has said 2.0 may have been included in a spec sheet. I haven't seen that, but if true that would change my assessment).

    Otherwise, inapplicable situations.
    I'm certain of Flash. I'm not sure of other features. I'm not sure of 2.x as much as features like Flash and maybe voice API. I know Flash was pretty clearly called out by the Palm company multiple times and I would think it rises to that level.
  20.    #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by Unclevanya View Post
    I don't know where you get a few thousand customers from....
    I meant the legacy Pre owners, relatively speaking.
    Last edited by dbdoinit; 02/16/2011 at 05:18 PM.
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