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  1. bitmage's Avatar
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       #1  
    On Monday, MotionApps announced that they would no longer be selling Classic as HP had removed the needed Palm roms from 2.0. This was an unexpected shock to those of us who rely on Classic.

    Due to the turmoil with the Pre release hardware issues and the HP buyout of Palm, developers have not migrated applications to the native WebOS platform as fast as one would have expected. Most have taken a 'wait and see' attitude towards WebOS, holding off on development until the platform shows more promise.

    This situation has moved Classic from its expected role as a temporary transition tool to being an important part of the operating system. For many users it was what allowed us to move to WebOS in the first place, as we could enjoy the new platform while maintaining access to our needed apps.

    We depend on productivity applications that currently have no WebOS equivalents. These are tools that we use every day in our jobs, with critical data.

    If HP is going to remove this support from 2.0, then users are left with difficult choices. They can move to 2.0 and lose access to their data, stay on 1.x and lose access to new applications and features, or leave the WebOS platform entirely.

    Many of the applications that are currently only available through Classic on WebOS exist as native apps on the Android and iOS platforms. Those of us who have been using WebOS since the Pre release day would much prefer to stay with it - but the loss of needed applications will make it difficult.

    MotionApps has also implied that the removal of the needed roms was a surprise to them, and contrary to agreements. It is disturbing to see HP abrogating agreements with major WebOS developers, as it does not encourage other companies to devote resources to the platform.

    A week has passed with no statements from HP on the future of Classic or why it has been removed. It would be wonderful if HP could find a way to continue support for PalmOS applications in WebOS 2.0. If that won't be possible, please at least officially notify users that the support will not be available.
    Palm IIIx-->Palm Vx-->Kyocera 6035-->Kyocera 7135-->Treo 650-->Treo 700p-->Pre
  2. comptuter's Avatar
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    #2  
    Well said!!!!
  3. #3  
    Nobody will stop you from sticking with 1.4.5 to my knowledge. Dropping legacy support is part of progress and improving performance.
  4. #4  
    Well said indeed. Progress is not just a matter of leaving the past behind, it's also about building a bridge to the future. By removing support for Classic in webOS 2.0 before important legacy apps like document editors are available for webOS, Palm is burning that bridge for many of its own customers without bothering to build a new one.
  5. #5  
    This is old technology, in time this will hurt the progress of webOS.

    Sprint Pre- Meta-Doctor 2.1.0 w/Flash

    Everything is Amazing & Nobody is Happy, "People with their mobile phones, "uh... oh... it won't..."... GIVE IT A SECOND... IT'S GOING TO SPACE!" Louis C.K.
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by bitmage View Post
    MotionApps has also implied that the removal of the needed roms was a surprise to them, and contrary to agreements. It is disturbing to see HP abrogating agreements with major WebOS developers, as it does not encourage other companies to devote resources to the platform.
    This is a pretty strong statement considering that we don't know the facts here. Certainly, we have no evidence other than what MotionApps has said that HP "abrogated agreements," and I don't think it's necessarily wise on HP-Palm's part to make public statements about such legal matters.
  7. bitmage's Avatar
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       #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by Butters3605 View Post
    This is old technology, in time this will hurt the progress of webOS.
    I'm curious why you think so? I don't think anyone would prefer to use a Classic-emulated app over a native version with similar capabilities. It's a way to be able to stay on WebOS while waiting for those native apps to become available, and encourages users to request those native apps.

    If users are forced to move to another platform, then they are gone from WebOS, and offer no incentive to developers to create the native apps.

    As to broken agreements, I agree that we don't know what is going on. I was very surprised to see a statement like that from MotionApps and then no rebuttal or clarification from HP.
    Palm IIIx-->Palm Vx-->Kyocera 6035-->Kyocera 7135-->Treo 650-->Treo 700p-->Pre
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by bitmage View Post
    I don't think anyone would prefer to use a Classic-emulated app over a native version with similar capabilities.
    Your right, this was what I meant, should have been more clear. Those users should be pushing HP-Palm and developers to make those apps native to webOS.

    But holding on to this also impedes the progression of webOS, just like making XBOX games play on a 360, or original PS work on a PS3. As things advance you have to let the old technology fall away or you cannot make those stellar advancements.

    Sprint Pre- Meta-Doctor 2.1.0 w/Flash

    Everything is Amazing & Nobody is Happy, "People with their mobile phones, "uh... oh... it won't..."... GIVE IT A SECOND... IT'S GOING TO SPACE!" Louis C.K.
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by Butters3605 View Post
    But holding on to this also impedes the progression of webOS, just like making XBOX games play on a 360, or original PS work on a PS3. As things advance you have to let the old technology fall away or you cannot make those stellar advancements.
    ^this +1

    Holding onto the comfortable, emulated versions of existing technology leaves developers no incentive to create new versions that they can charge for again. And consumers will pay for it again, as demonstrated by original Xbox and PSX games being sold for download over their respective online networks, even by those who had already purchased physical disk versions which are no longer compatible.

    A "loyal customer" is not someone who purchases something one time 10 years ago and keeps using and nursing it along, expecting full support to continue ad infinitum.

    Tell developers that we're sticking with webOS, no matter what, and they will make a version of their program to sell to us. It's why PalmOS apps got ported to other platforms in the first place.
  10. comptuter's Avatar
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    #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by bill.allrobots.org View Post
    Nobody will stop you from sticking with 1.4.5 to my knowledge. Dropping legacy support is part of progress and improving performance.
    Progress should invole:
    1. Official notoification (before the fact, not a year later) if Palm wasn't panning to continue to support legacy apps (Classic) it should have been made a lot clearer.
    2. Time and ways for users to maintain their data integrity
    3. Not renege (allegedly) on agreements with developers and clients
  11. #11  
    We, honestly, have no idea what is going on behind the scenes.

    Sprint Pre- Meta-Doctor 2.1.0 w/Flash

    Everything is Amazing & Nobody is Happy, "People with their mobile phones, "uh... oh... it won't..."... GIVE IT A SECOND... IT'S GOING TO SPACE!" Louis C.K.
  12. comptuter's Avatar
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    #12  
    Thats a big part of the problem, ignorance breeds fear
  13. mordy07's Avatar
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    #13  
    Well said. Unfortunately, I actually NEED classic, so I will be forced to stay on 1.4.5 for a while. My medical school uses outdated software (in their defense its mostly the company's fault for not updating) that only works on PalmOS and Windows. We use this software to track patients and procedures. Unfortunately now both webOS and Windows 7 (I assume) will no longer support the software, so new students are going to be forced to buy outdated technology. I am hoping this forces the company to do some much needed updates.

    So I assume I can stay on a at 1.4.5.? I've always updated as soon as possible, so I didn't know if the usual update was automatic or anything. I know a ton of people in our class that have either a Pre or Pre Plus, and it would be a pretty big mess if everyone updated to 2.0 and suddenly couldn't use the necessary software.
  14. #14  
    The major reason for me to move from Treo 680 to Palm Pre was because of the classic so I can run the PalmOS programme like the stock manager to keep track my investment portfolio (I started to use it since 2001 and with a large database) and other program like agendus. If no more "classic" support on my Palm Pre, most probably I will stick to my pre to 1.4.5 until the phone death. Then I will switch to Android / Apple and say goodbye to my beloved Palm OS platform.

    For those who want to stay at 1.4.5, please kindly refer to the thread below:
    http://forums.precentral.net/web-os-...k-updates.html
    Palm IIIe > Sony S300 > Sony N700 > Sony TG50 > Sony TH55 > Trēo 680 > Palm Prē > Palm Prē 2 (GSM) + Veer
  15. bitmage's Avatar
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       #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by FordPrefect View Post
    ^this +1
    A "loyal customer" is not someone who purchases something one time 10 years ago and keeps using and nursing it along, expecting full support to continue ad infinitum.
    The issue is not one of wanting full support for old apps to continue 'ad infinitum'. I'd love to move to native WebOS apps and replace my PalmOS ones - but those apps don't exist at this time.

    I have urged developers to make native versions, many times. Unfortunately the low mindshare of the WebOS platform has made it an unattractive target for developers with limited resources, and that situation will likely continue into next year.

    I doubt many users currently depending on Classic want to be stuck on WebOS 1.x for that length of time. You won't be getting updates, and new apps won't be available as they will need the new OS.

    If Classic is available, then I can stay on the WebOS platform and keep encouraging developers to make those native apps. If I'm forced to another platform I'll still be buying those apps -- but they won't be the WebOS versions.
    Palm IIIx-->Palm Vx-->Kyocera 6035-->Kyocera 7135-->Treo 650-->Treo 700p-->Pre
  16. #16  
    Very solid reasoning. That's why I'm moving to the iPhone. Even if some aspects of the phone aren't ideal (like the notification system) the ecosystem is so large that you can usually find an app that is close to what you need.
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by Butters3605 View Post
    This is old technology, in time this will hurt the progress of webOS.
    Yes to an extent, but Apple still support OS 9.2 in OS X for a long time before dropping it. Not one generation after launch.

    Transition occurs in a gradual pace.
    Palm IIIc -> Sony CLIÉ T650C -> Sony TJ-37 -> Palm TX -> Palm Centro -> Palm Pre Bell -> Palm Pre Plus Bell/Verizon Hybrid -> HP Veer -> HP Pre 3 NA -> BlackBerry Classic -> BlackBerry Priv

    It's a Late Goodbye, such a Late Goodbye.

    Need OEM Palm Pre parts? See here
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by comptuter View Post
    Progress should invole:
    1. Official notoification (before the fact, not a year later) if Palm wasn't panning to continue to support legacy apps (Classic) it should have been made a lot clearer.
    I agree here. They should have made it clear that this was a *temporary* solution while the developers got their apps ready for webOS, just like classic emulation in Mac OS X.

    [QUOTE=comptuter;2737779] 2. Time and ways for users to maintain their data integrity[\QUOTE]

    You do have time. The update isn't even out, and they're not going to force it on you when it is. Take your time. When you're ready, you can upgrade and give up support for legacy apps.

    Quote Originally Posted by comptuter View Post
    3. Not renege (allegedly) on agreements with developers and clients
    If these allegations are true, I agree here too.

    Quote Originally Posted by bitmage View Post
    I have urged developers to make native versions, many times. Unfortunately the low mindshare of the WebOS platform has made it an unattractive target for developers with limited resources, and that situation will likely continue into next year.
    Giving devs the option of completely ignoring webOS and making their consumers buy Classic is keeping them from allocating the resources. The longer this subpar experience is kept around, the longer the devs can ignore us when we ask for a native version of their app. With the PDK and hybrid apps, there is no longer any excuse (to my knowledge) not to get to work on these. As I said, I agree devs should have been given much more warning, but don't agree they should keep this around. Maintaining full support for legacy code is a huge reason for degradation of Windows over the years (which to some degree is improving now that MS is willing to break ancient apps).
  19. comptuter's Avatar
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    #19  
    1. How do you know WebOS 2 is optional?

    2. Will the app catalogue still be available for 1.4.5 users?

    3. Mission critical classical apps for me (Agendus, Docs to Go and Pocket Quicken) have no WebOS counterparts that i'm aware of at this time or are even under consideration.
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthRepublican View Post
    Well said indeed. Progress is not just a matter of leaving the past behind, it's also about building a bridge to the future. By removing support for Classic in webOS 2.0 before important legacy apps like document editors are available for webOS, Palm is burning that bridge for many of its own customers without bothering to build a new one.
    Quick office will have a editing option.
    In a world of droid, Pre does it better.

    Shouldn't we treat this world like the Garden of Eden and avoid the apple at all costs?
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