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  1. NaS
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    #41  
    I've had atleast 8 replacements! One of my replacments was dropped in the toilet with the 1.05 ghz! Used a air hose! Then Dried it out on my dash board for less than a day! Fired it up an worked fine! A few water spots on the screen but went away after a few days! Removed the water sticker an took one off a battery an replaced the one on the phone an brought it in the repair store! The took it apart! An replaced it no questions!
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by postalUT View Post
    That's hilarious. We never do that at our store. We usually ignore Preware when doing service. In fact, didn't Palm say they didn't have a problem with Preware? If you come in with some kind of software modification we will still service it. Of course if you come in with a software/battery life problem, we're gonna undo any mods you have and hard reset it. Hell, I even do warranty work on Android and WinMo phones with custom ROMs and BB's with leaked OS'es. Doesn't matter to me at all. But again if I determine the problem is due to your mods, I'm gonna wipe your phone back to stock. If I can't determine whether it's due to modifications I'll flash it back to stock and then tell you to come back if it still happens.

    That store is BS. Go to another one.
    I want to be perfectly clear. What you just said is absolutely the experience that many have with these sorts of service calls. Companies tend to be very liberal, especially at the store level with those types of decisions. Keeping the customer happy tends to be more important than standing firm on some fine point in the fine print. I am just saying that they don't have to. They are perfectly in their rights to refuse service due to voiding the warranty.

    Heck, I brought a MacBook Pro to the Genius Bar with a torrented copy of a pre-release OS running on the system. I am a frequent customer at that store, and a relatively big spender. He didn't even bat an eye. He just diagnosed the issue and never said a word about the fact that I was running an unreleased OS. My point is that he didn't have to. I was out of warranty the moment I installed the OS. I was just confident in my relationship with the store that I didn't even bother restoring my system. I have jailbroken my phone once just to see what all the hubbub was about. I knew that I was doing it at my own risk. Once you learn the meaning of the phrase, "at your own risk," my point will be much clearer.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    You see, that is exactly the mentality I was talking about. Palm has never said they were liable for damage you do to your phone when using Preware. They are a company of tinkerers. I'm sure they would approve of any company willing to brand and sell Preware soldering irons and blow torches, but that doesn't mean they will cover the damage you do to your product.

    They support the idea of Preware insofar as they don't care what you do to your property once you have it. They encourage tinkering and patching and anything you can do to fill in the gaps that they left behind. They just don't have to fix it once you mod your phone. You clearly do not understand the nature of a warranty. They guarantee the product they made, not the product that you made. Change the firmware, you change the phone.

    This is precisely why Apple does not make any public statement in support of mods, hardware or software. They would not lose a case in court, but they would have to fight those cases because people like you believe that they are entitled to unlimited repair for damage not caused by the manufacturer.

    As for this current discussion not applying to the OP, you're wrong. From a warranty perspective, any mod, regardless of the cause of your complaint, is still enough to void the entire warranty. It does not just void the modded part of the warranty; it voids the whole thing. The logic is that even if you only replaced you LED for a heavier duty model, you still may have inadvertently damaged a display connector. You may have removed some of the thermal paste while doing something minor which caused your phone to overheat.

    All firmware mods are fundamentally the same as the over-clocking mod. It is just a matter of degree. They may want to make their mod centric customer base happy by turning a blind eye to certain things. But you are fooling yourself if you believe they have any legal obligation to fix your modded device.
    So to sum this up, if you are Lawful Stupid enough to let companies get away with crap hardware by using their legalese to pretty much insure any issue that is their fault is not actually their fault, by all means, pay your $100 bucks for the insurance replacement.
    screwdestiny
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  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by NaS View Post
    I've had atleast 8 replacements! One of my replacments was dropped in the toilet with the 1.05 ghz! Used a air hose! Then Dried it out on my dash board for less than a day! Fired it up an worked fine! A few water spots on the screen but went away after a few days! Removed the water sticker an took one off a battery an replaced the one on the phone an brought it in the repair store! The took it apart! An replaced it no questions!
    Quote Originally Posted by malpha View Post
    So to sum this up, if you are Lawful Stupid enough to let companies get away with crap hardware by using their legalese to pretty much insure any issue that is their fault is not actually their fault, by all means, pay your $100 bucks for the insurance replacement.
    Yep, that about sums it up. Destroy your phone, scam the store, then pat yourself on the back over what a smart customer you are. I don't know what I was thinking. Palm is lucky to have such great fans.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    You see, that is exactly the mentality I was talking about. Palm has never said they were liable for damage you do to your phone when using Preware.
    You are wrong, swapping out your battery for a bigger one does not void your warranty. Also if you publicly acknowledge that something is ok for use on your hardware or software that does make you liable for any damages that may occur as a result of its use unless you specificly state something to the contrary. It's called a disclamer, meaning that you know what it's implied usage is and you accept no responsibility for any ill effects that may occur from using said software or otherwise.

    But that's fine, I will agree to dissagree if my phone breaks for some reason or another "not due to me using Preware" I will take it to my friends at my local Sprint store and them fix or replace it and if yours breaks you can buy another.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by NaS View Post
    I've had atleast 8 replacements! One of my replacments was dropped in the toilet with the 1.05 ghz! Used a air hose! Then Dried it out on my dash board for less than a day! Fired it up an worked fine! A few water spots on the screen but went away after a few days! Removed the water sticker an took one off a battery an replaced the one on the phone an brought it in the repair store! The took it apart! An replaced it no questions!
    Dude you are pitiful, next time man up and pay for your own mistake. You are one of the reasons companies go through so much trouble trying not to honor their own warranty.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    I want to be perfectly clear. What you just said is absolutely the experience that many have with these sorts of service calls. Companies tend to be very liberal, especially at the store level with those types of decisions. Keeping the customer happy tends to be more important than standing firm on some fine point in the fine print. I am just saying that they don't have to. They are perfectly in their rights to refuse service due to voiding the warranty.
    If I put a decal on my car's rear window, I don't void the engine warranty. If I put a non-OEM battery on my Pre, I don't void the warranty on the keyboard. Now, if my decal damaged the rear-defroster, or my non-OEM battery burned out the phone, the company is well within it's rights to charge me for repairing that damage.

    Companies that refuse to honor a warranty for trivial reasons that have nothing to do with the actual failure of the product anger their customers--and rightly so.

    Oh - and it's pretty slimy to swap out the "did I get it wet" patch after dropping your phone in the toilet. Customers that try to cheat companies into warranty repairs anger the companies--and rightly so. They also increase prices for the rest of us.
    Last edited by puzzlegal; 08/01/2010 at 10:40 PM.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    Yep, that about sums it up. Destroy your phone, scam the store, then pat yourself on the back over what a smart customer you are. I don't know what I was thinking. Palm is lucky to have such great fans.
    Oh yes, because I mentioned destroying your phone instead of having a legitimate hardware issue as the OP did with the ringer switch like many others on this very board have had, thus you didn't completely skip past the point to make your silly little post. Oh, and the subject of your posts wasn't "making a tiny mod to something having nothing to do with the hardware NULLIFIES YOUR WARRANTY FOR LIFE", but "throwing your phone in the toilet nullifies your warranty." Oh, but then I guess it was, since the bulk of your post dictates that common sense goes out of the window and thus these two instances are completely equal.
    screwdestiny
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  9. #49  
    I took my Pre in to get replaced, I had 30+ patches and my modified extended back and the rep could have cared less. Eh just my 2 cents, I guess it all depends on the people/location.
    Need a case or battery touchstone compatible? I just released my OtterBox case that works with the Touchstone. Check out the links below.

    Some user feedback here:
    http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pr...ouchstone.html
  10. #50  
    Despite some of the bitterness of some of the posts, I think we are starting to come closer to saying the same thing. I will just go over a few things that we are not communicating well.

    1. The key to a company approved mod is "user replaceable". More things are user replaceable on a desktop tower than on just about any piece of personal electronics. Still, not all falls in that category. Replacing the motherboard, HD, optical drive, sound card, video subsystem, processor, and OS, but leaving the case the same, definitely constitutes voiding your warranty on any PC, unless all you bought is the case. On a phone, almost nothing is user replaceable, except maybe the battery. Even that will require an approved replaceable battery. Almost everything else is an out of warranty mod. Check your manual for specifics.

    2. Any out of warranty mod voids the whole warranty, period. The business practice of companies to make repairs on modded devices anyway has trained consumers to believe that they are entitled to those repairs. That is likely the cause of the confusion in this thread. To be clear, no modded product is subject to warranty repair. It will probably get the repair 90% of the time, but only by the judgement of the provider, not by legal obligation.

    3. Software mods are the same as hardware mods. This is why company approved app stores and catalogues have become so important. The days of the wild West are far behind us. You can't treat your phone like a desktop computer; it's not. You can't go changing the firmware, willy-nilly. You can't even put just any app on the thing from just any vendor unless that type of side loading is specifically approved. This is a grey area that we are defining with the current crop of smartphone ecosystems. Is MOTO or HTC responsible for a phone that has their protections removed and malicious apps side loaded? I don't know. Has Google made it legal for the user to mod Android in any way? That is for the courts to decide.

    One thing is for certain; Apple hasn't. They have made it impossible to side load anything without knowingly and intentionally voiding the warranty. On the iPhone side of things, there is no grey area. You cannot mod your software in any way except what Apple specifically approves.

    Now, what about Palm? I suspect we will never know for sure. Why? Palm is likely too afraid to alienate their remaining user base of tech geeks and modders by making a definitive statement one way or the other. It might depend on how much such repairs negatively affect their bottom line. I don't believe they have said that the firmware of the phone is user replaceable or modifiable. Their accepting attitude about it may in fact give them trouble if it went to court. I would not want to defend them in that case, and no, I am not a lawyer.

    Just recognize that a warranty is a guarantee. What it guarantees is specifically spelled out in the warranty. What a user can replace or modify is spelled out, not what they can't. If you burn the battery out because of a firmware mod, that is no different in principal to dropping the phone in the toilet. Neither problem is caused by the company. If you want to complain that the battery sucks, you, as a consumer, have the right to return the unmodded phone for repair, or return it for a refund, or take matters in your own hands, void the warranty, and go nuts. You can't have it all. If the battery door is defective, you can return the defective product or pick up a soldering iron. Both may fix the problem, but one voids your warranty. Choose wisely.

    The same goes for software. If you don't like the software on your phone, you may be better off buying a different phone if you want the company to stand behind the product. When you bought the phone, you bought a tightly integrated hardware/software package. Significantly changing the software changes the package that you bought. I personally believe that Preware is an "at you own risk" type of mod. Too many consumers do these sorts of things without considering the consequences. Perhaps, in the end, we will all just have to wait on a law suit to clarify the issue. In the meantime, just be aware that your warranty repair may have been compromised once you entered the world of the modder. There is a reason this practice is not, and should not be mainstream.
    Last edited by dandbj13; 08/02/2010 at 11:36 AM. Reason: I was factually wrong about a point.
  11. #51  
    well most of your statements seem to be correct except for one. Doctoring is not a "mod" as it is provided by palm to fix legit issues on your phone if nothing else works! My 2 cents.
  12. #52  
    this can be summarized like this:

    always return things for repair in the factory-original configuration. That's just common sense, and it's another reason why the doctor is such a great thing.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by garos09 View Post
    well most of your statements seem to be correct except for one. Doctoring is not a "mod" as it is provided by palm to fix legit issues on your phone if nothing else works! My 2 cents.
    I stand corrected and will remove references to doctoring in my post. Thanks.
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    Despite some of the bitterness of some of the posts, I think we are starting to come closer to saying the same thing. I will just go over a few things that we are not communicating well.
    No, I think we really disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    1. The key to a company approved mod is "user replaceable". More things are user replaceable on a desktop tower than on just about any piece of personal electronics. Still, not all falls in that category. Replacing the motherboard, HD, optical drive, sound card, video subsystem, processor, and OS, but leaving the case the same, definitely constitutes voiding your warranty on any PC, unless all you bought is the case.
    agree so far
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    On a phone, almost nothing is user replaceable, except maybe the battery. Even that will require an approved replaceable battery. Almost everything else is an out of warranty mod. Check your manual for specifics.
    Says you. :shrug: I didn't see anything in the end user agreement about that when I bought my Pre.

    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    2. Any out of warranty mod voids the whole warranty, period. The business practice of companies to make repairs on modded devices anyway has trained consumers to believe that they are entitled to those repairs. That is likely the cause of the confusion in this thread. To be clear, no modded product is subject to warranty repair. It will probably get the repair 90% of the time, but only by the judgement of the provider, not by legal obligation.
    So, if I put a sticker on my rear windshield, I've voided my engine warranty? Because theoretically that sticker could have damaged the rear defroster? I really don't think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    3. Software mods are the same as hardware mods. This is why company approved app stores and catalogues have become so important. The days of the wild West are far behind us. You can't treat your phone like a desktop computer; it's not. You can't go changing the firmware, willy-nilly. You can't even put just any app on the thing from just any vendor unless that type of side loading is specifically approved. This is a grey area that we are defining with the current crop of smartphone ecosystems. Is MOTO or HTC responsible for a phone that has their protections removed and malicious apps side loaded? I don't know. Has Google made it legal for the user to mod Android in any way? That is for the courts to decide.

    One thing is for certain; Apple hasn't. They have made it impossible to side load anything without knowingly and intentionally voiding the warranty. On the iPhone side of things, there is no grey area. You cannot mod your software in any way except what Apple specifically approves.
    Yes, Apple has made this very clear, and is careful to include this in the end user agreement and in their press releases. I'm not sure why you assume that what's true for Apple is true for everyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    Now, what about Palm? I suspect we will never know for sure. Why? Palm is likely too afraid to alienate their remaining user base of tech geeks and modders by making a definitive statement one way or the other.
    Well, here you are just assuming that Palm is NOT okay with mods, but doesn't dare do anything about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    It might depend on how much such repairs negatively affect their bottom line. I don't believe they have said that the firmware of the phone is user replaceable or modifiable. Their accepting attitude about it may in fact give them trouble if it went to court. I would not want to defend them in that case, and no, I am not a lawyer.
    Or maybe it wouldn't "give them trouble" because they aren't interested in going to court to protect something they aren't claiming.

    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    Just recognize that a warranty is a guarantee. What it guarantees is specifically spelled out in the warranty. What a user can replace or modify is spelled out, not what they can't. If you burn the battery out because of a firmware mod, that is no different in principal to dropping the phone in the toilet.
    Yes, that's true. But your example of burning out the LCD by using a patch to make it light up (or to make it NOT light up, since the Palm default is now to make it light up too often, IMO) is absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    Neither problem is caused by the company.
    Agreed. If you actually damage the machine by some mod, Palm is not obligated to fix the machine under warranty. That's a VERY different statement from claiming that loading any software out of the catalog, or making any modification whatsoever will void the warranty.
    F'rinstance, if you can undo the mod before bringing it back to Palm (say, by removing the patches via Preware) and if the mod had nothing to do with your problem (for instance, a sticky "c" key on the keyboard) I'm pretty sure that the warranty is still in effect, and not because you are "cheating", but because Palm warranted that keyboard to work from some reasonable period of time.
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