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  1. mfive's Avatar
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    #21  
    All battery drain issues aside... I really don't see how a battery would really have to get "acclimated" to a new version of the OS. I've never even heard of batteries "stabilizing" after an update either. All seems like hocus pocus to me...

    "Let your battery cycle fully so it can rebuild its UI% map" - Are you an electrical engineer Daemon? I appreciate your insight, but this just sounds over the top. Please correct me if I'm wrong or explain further how this works...
    Palm Pilot -> Treo 650 -> Treo 700p -> Treo 755p -> Treo 800w -> Pre -> Touchpad
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemon View Post
    Just be patient. Seriously. It'll stabilize after a few days.
    ...After about 3-4 days, or a couple full cycles of the battery it usually
    returns to normal, and for a lot of us gets measurably better after each
    major release (with the exception of the wifi related problems
    some people had in 1.3.5, see below).

    If you want to speed up the process, let the battery drain down to
    virtually empty and then fully charge it, which means don't take it
    off the charger the moment it reports 100%, but let it keep topping it
    off for a few hours, it'll recalibrate it's map between actual battery
    voltage and drain rate, and displayed UI battery %, and will return
    to normal drain. ...
    ian
    I'm willing to give this a try but I'm quite skeptical. I'll report back in about 3-4 days. Right now I'm going to put on Pandora until the battery is so low it turns itself off. Then I'll charge it to 100% and a few hours more. We'll see if that helps.
  3. #23  
    I am noticing a significant increase in battery time..... HOWEVER

    Get this. My battery went from 23% to 11% in 2 HOURS with the phone completely shut down OFF. This was after 1.4. What gives? Or does restarting take that much out of it?

    Additionally, we may all need to recalibrate just to be safe. By recalibrate I mean the 5x full charge discharge thingy
  4. Daemon's Avatar
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    #24  
    Rebooting does take a lot out of it, but not that much.
    More likely the battery voltage dropped a bit while the phone was
    off and the battery cooled off. That's common with Lipos.
    The recalibration thing isn't for the battery's sake. It's not like a NiMH
    or old NiCAD battery that need to be cycled to deliver full capacity.
    It's so that the Pre can map the battery voltage to the proper UI % to
    display, because each individual battery has a slightly different discharge
    curve and it's not linear. Should only take about 2 full cycles for it to
    remap. I don't know why they seem to clobber the map after each update.

    One battery drain quirk I saw today was that after shooting some
    video, I pocketed the phone and when I got home I found it was draining
    at 160mA or about 20%/hr. It had been no more than 2%/hr all day before
    that. I remembered that I had gotten an error on one of my attempts
    to record, and saw later that for some reason it created the video
    completely without an audio track. I checked running processes with unix
    top command and found "pulseaudio" near the top of the list, which is
    weird because it usually is only active while playing audio files or stream,
    which I haven't done all day. I suspect that the audio recording for video
    uses pulseaudio service and it got stuck spinning. I eventually rebooted
    the phone and that cleared up the high drain. This might be happening
    to other people.

    If you bring up the Battery Monitor app, then put the phone to sleep
    and check back in a little over a minute, and bring up the Detailed Battery
    Info screen, it should idle at less than -10mA. If it's over that, then
    something is running in the background that shouldn't be.

    ian
  5. #25  
    I played VBA for about an hour, listened to music for about three hours, made one call for one minute and browsed the web for about 45 minutes. I took the phone off the charger at 11:00 AM, and right now, 8:00 PM I'm at about 45%.
  6. mfive's Avatar
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    #26  
    @daemon - meant no disrespect by previous last post. just noticed it may have come off harsh towards you. you really seem like you know your stuff!

    Quote Originally Posted by copasetic View Post
    Additionally, we may all need to recalibrate just to be safe. By recalibrate I mean the 5x full charge discharge thingy
    this is hilarious. i think we need to coin a term for it... "lithium-ion remensuration"
    Palm Pilot -> Treo 650 -> Treo 700p -> Treo 755p -> Treo 800w -> Pre -> Touchpad
  7. #27  
    Changing the Wi-Fi Sleep Settings to "Turn Wi-Fi Off when phone sleeps" made all the difference for me. For some reason, 1.4 update set the default to "Keep Wi-Fi On".
  8. mfive's Avatar
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    #28  
    I saw that in there, although I thought I remembered reading somewhere that "Keep Wi-Fi on" was how all of the previous webOS versions ran by default.

    I can't confirm it in the official changelog, does anybody else remember this?
    Palm Pilot -> Treo 650 -> Treo 700p -> Treo 755p -> Treo 800w -> Pre -> Touchpad
  9. jp99's Avatar
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    #29  
    Guys, one thing to remember about Li-ion is that the battery doesn't do well if you fully discharge it. Even if there are UI maps for battery percentages in webOS, you're not helping your overall battery life and capacity.

    It also doesn't like to sit around fully charged either, so if you have spare batteries and you don't use them often, don't leave them at full charge. The battery chemistry begins to break down and the capacity of the battery is diminished. They should be stored at below 4.05 volts, and you can check that with the battery monitor application.
  10. Daemon's Avatar
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    #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by surigade View Post
    Changing the Wi-Fi Sleep Settings to "Turn Wi-Fi Off when phone sleeps" made all the difference for me. For some reason, 1.4 update set the default to "Keep Wi-Fi On".
    Actually this behavior was turned on in 1.3.5 and this is just an extension of it.
    Prior to 1.3.5, when the phone was put to sleep, the Wifi radio was
    immediately turned off. When you woke it up, it'd take a couple
    seconds to restart the wifi radio and relink.
    In 1.3.5 they made it so that when the phone is put to sleep, the Wifi
    radio stays on, but goes into its own low power sleep mode. When you
    wake the phone up, it relinks to the network almost instantly.

    Some people had a problem in 1.3.5 where something keeps
    the Wifi radio from ever going to sleep even when the phone is put to
    sleep. It stays active, and it draws current all the time. There were
    several threads about it. For others, like me, it worked perfectly as
    designed and my battery usage was never better even with Wifi
    enabled all the time. The Wifi radio is more efficient than EVDO radio
    so if it's working properly (only awake when needed), it draws less current.

    It appears that Palm couldn't figure out how to fix the problem
    that some people had with the new behavior in 1.3.5 so in 1.4 they
    simply gave those people the option to revert to the pre-1.3.5
    Wifi behavior. That's the toggle in 1.4. The default of "On" is
    simply the same as what 1.3.5 did.

    ian
  11. Daemon's Avatar
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    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by jp99 View Post
    Guys, one thing to remember about Li-ion is that the battery doesn't do well if you fully discharge it. Even if there are UI maps for battery percentages in webOS, you're not helping your overall battery life and capacity.
    We're not running the battery voltage to zero. The phone shuts off long
    before it can do any harm to the battery. And the cycling has to happen
    at least once to rebuild the map. You can't really avoid it.

    ian
  12. mfive's Avatar
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    #32  
    So, ian, do you recommend (for best battery performance) having it turn off when sleeping, or keeping it on when sleeping?
    Palm Pilot -> Treo 650 -> Treo 700p -> Treo 755p -> Treo 800w -> Pre -> Touchpad
  13. Daemon's Avatar
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    #33  
    I leave it on all the time.
    But my Pre on standby drains the battery at less than 1.5%/hr
    with Wifi on, GPS on, and two polling email accounts. I had a period
    of 60 hours of standby between charges last week. That's why I like to
    try to help people figure out their sources of high drain, because I know
    what's possible.

    Even if I wanted to "turn it off" to save power, I'd just put in Airplane mode
    instead. The battery draw in airplane mode on a properly
    functioning Pre is almost nothing. Some folks use the Battery Saver app
    to automatically put it into airplane mode at night.

    ian
  14. mfive's Avatar
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    #34  
    ...installing the battery monitor app. will report back tomorrow with results.
    Palm Pilot -> Treo 650 -> Treo 700p -> Treo 755p -> Treo 800w -> Pre -> Touchpad
  15. jp99's Avatar
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    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemon View Post
    We're not running the battery voltage to zero. The phone shuts off long
    before it can do any harm to the battery. And the cycling has to happen
    at least once to rebuild the map. You can't really avoid it.

    ian
    So at what voltage is Palm shutting off the device? You don't have to go to zero volts to cause damage. For most Li-ion chemistries the circuits should cut off at 2.7 to 3.0 V.
    Last edited by jp99; 03/01/2010 at 11:26 AM.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by jp99 View Post
    So at what voltage is Palm shutting off the device? You don't have to go to zero volts to cause damage.
    The programming in your Pre will not allow you to damage your battery, that's why it shuts down before this can happen.
  17. Daemon's Avatar
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    #37  
    Easy enough to find the shutoff voltage with the Battery Monitor app
    but I doubt it's ever dropping below 3.0V. The Pre does other things
    to protect the battery as well. When you leave it on the charger
    it will charge the battery up to 100%, then stop and let it discharge to
    about 95% before it charges again to 100% and so forth. All the while, the
    UI will show 100%. This is because these batteries don't like
    to be constantly topped off. Again, Battery Monitor will show
    you actual % and in Detailed battery info, whether it's charging
    or discharging at the moment.

    ian
  18. mfive's Avatar
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    #38  
    So with relatively normal (possibly even on the lighter side) use today, here's my results:

    Interval: 60s
    Initial Battery: 96%
    Current Battery 16%
    Runtime: 4h30m42s
    Drain per Hour: 14.51%
    Remaining Life: 1.10hrs
    Palm Pilot -> Treo 650 -> Treo 700p -> Treo 755p -> Treo 800w -> Pre -> Touchpad
  19. mfive's Avatar
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    #39  
    By the way, i did a fresh restart before I went to sleep, and let it charge all night. This was upon waking up. Yes, i get up late... I stay up late... big deal. haha
    Palm Pilot -> Treo 650 -> Treo 700p -> Treo 755p -> Treo 800w -> Pre -> Touchpad
  20. #40  
    it's not better. There are probably some apps that burn less energy now like nascar or something lol. But everything I do has stayed the same or gotten worse in regards to battery drain
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