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  1. #41  
    oh, and please people stop comparing update frequencies between phones it has nothing to do with the update frequency and everything to do with the amount of things which needed to be updated and how many were taking care of in the update. If a phone is up to par with what is on the market than clearly there is no need to update, if a phone is lacking in functionality out of the box than clearly it should be expected to update as frequently as possible. once again not my fault as a consumer that palm is hurting financially, I bought this phone because I needed a phone that could be used for my business not because I wanted to be a hero and save palms business if so i would have just donated money to them.
  2. d.moss's Avatar
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       #42  
    i completely understand where you're coming from xtn. but see i'm an average joe as well. i was just born in a different generation/era than you.. when you were a kid, you probably never imagined having a device like the pre with all of its functions.. your era just wanted something that made it more convenient to call.. its not about a ding dong sound.. its about functionality and options.. i like to have different sounds for different contacts and notifications.. that way before even looking at my phone i already know what's going on (who's calling/texting, if its an email, or calender notification, if battery is low, etc.) i want my phone/device to enable me to be more proactive.. i was born in the computer era.. and by the time i was ten there were already touchscreen devices with stylus' (i'm 22) and there are things we expect out of these devices that are now much more than phones.. and i don't wanna sound ungrateful because like i said.. i love what palm is "trying" to do.. i just feel if they don't get a move on it, the future of webos doesn't seem to bright.. it'll just become another cool concept that never blossomed.. time is of the essence, and time moves very fast nowadays.. i really want to see palm unbrainwash at least a vast amount of the iphone users who only get it because of a brand name. granted there are some business men who use the iphone to conduct business.. but i'm willing to bet that aroung 80% of iphone users are college kids who want a play device and don't even know its real capabilities or what its lacking.. i think this platform has the capability to take those customers, but what good is that if they have poor execution and aren't getting the platform to its full potential fast enough? this device we hold in our hand is capable of doing so much.. yet it doesn't.. so it would be like buying that new car and it has an a/c in it but the a/c hasn't been activated for you to utilize.. in the middle of the summer.. and instead of them coming to fix that, they come and fix the chipped paint on the door hinges.. not cool.. i'm just gonna be a sad dude if i paid $500 just to see this be something tried and failed.. but at any rate.. i've regained my hope in palm.. i have faith that when the next update comes it'll be a major one that caters to us new age average joes.. times change, fast, so palm better keep up with the times..
  3. xtn
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    #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by tomh1102
    XTN...please speak for yourself I think that 90% of the people who are complaining on this site are the people who are not techies and feel that they should not have to hack into a device for features that should be on the phone out of the box
    Sure, 90% of the people who are complaining on this site blah blah blah... but only about 10% of us complain on here. The number of forum members here seems to be roughly a fourth of the total ownership. So that means... uh... 90%x10%x25%... uh... so that means a little over 2% of owners are people who fit your description. So 98% of Pre owners don't fit your description.

    Anyway I was just speaking for myself... only I imagined a high percentage of users might think along the same lines as me. If I'm wrong I'll surely admit it, but it seems logical to assume the center of the bell curve of Pre ownership demographic falls somewhere near me because I'm middle-everything; middle-aged, middle-income, middle-America, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by d.moss
    i completely understand where you're coming from xtn. but see i'm an average joe as well. i was just born in a different generation/era than you.. when you were a kid, you probably never imagined having a device like the pre with all of its functions.. your era just wanted something that made it more convenient to call..

    but i'm willing to bet that aroung 80% of iphone users are college kids who want a play device and don't even know its real capabilities or what its lacking..
    You're right, it's probably a generational thing. My expectations have been exceeded by the Pre, while your's haven't been met. But you really think the young college students are the primary owners of these type products? Can college kids really afford phones and phone plans like this in high numbers? If they can then maybe times have changed a lot more than I thought!!!

    xtn
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by wturnerharris View Post
    I've made an app. No one uses it, but at least I can say I did it.
    If every user was like you, we'd have over 500 million thousand apps in the app catalog right now!
    Last edited by sudoer; 10/22/2009 at 09:19 PM. Reason: corrected embarassing typo in by div by 1000 :)
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by d.moss View Post
    ... palm really could have come up with another treo with all its functionality in order to save time to polish up webos.. ...
    If they did that, Palm would have joined the ranks of the Edsel and the Corvair. If they came out with another Treo, we'd be bashing the c r a p out of them right now, and wondering how RIM is going to succeed against Apple and Android. Palm is still a player (and ahead of RIM in many people's perception these days). I think they came out pretty well given the cards in their hand. Palm still needs to continue doing things that wow people to stay in the game. Being first with Flash 10 is their next step as well as getting some marquee apps of value (and POC for native API use) in the app catalog. This is the kind of stuff that will keep them in people's mindshare.
    Last edited by sudoer; 10/22/2009 at 05:36 PM. Reason: corrected typo
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by xtn View Post
    ... You're right, it's probably a generational thing. My expectations have been exceeded by the Pre, while your's haven't been met. But you really think the young college students are the primary owners of these type products? Can college kids really afford phones and phone plans like this in high numbers? If they can then maybe times have changed a lot more than I thought!!!
    I'm also very much a "middle" everything person (including liking the middle of Oreo's more than liking Oreo on my phone!) I think college kids use cell phones instead of landlines these days, so I'd venture to say that more may have iPhones than we think - but the data plan for the iPhone probably does limit the number of college kids who(se parents) can afford them. I suspect this will change as smartphones become more prevalent and cheaper.

    I'd guess that somewhere around half probably have a laptop. These items are more important than things like a car these days. I'm over 50, and had my own computer while in college (but I was like one in 1000 back then). I think you are right that an iphone is still a college luxury, but a cell phone is not. D.Moss: How far away from reality are we?
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
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       #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by fbcregan View Post
    I think it's funny that so many of you are complaining about Palm taking so long. This is my third smartphone, and the first two NEVER updated anything. I had a WinMo Moto Q and a Blackberry Curve that I gave to my wife. I just updated the OS on the Blackberry for the first time and I can't even tell a difference. I've never had any mobile device that updates and changes as often as the Pre. It's amazing, and it does more than any other smartphone I've had. No, it doesn't record video. I've probably had five phones that have recorded video, and not one did it well enough to even know what you're recording. And if you're on Precentral and still complaining about notification sounds, you have no excuse. There are homebrew apps and patches that can make that happen. I look forward to Palm's updates and making the Pre better, but I'll never understand you whiners that are never even close to satisfied.
    there are some whiners, but i don't feel i'm one of em.. i'm pretty much stating the facts.. the fact is palm is gonna begin to get looked over if they don't get a move on it.. and i really don't want that.. also the fact is that we shouldn't have to rely on webos-internals for these things.. if internals can make workarounds this fast then palm should be able to come up with a real solution fast.. especially to things as small as the things people are asking for.. i just wanna see palm do well.. and maybe i'm wrong.. but i don't see em doing well if they don't speed up.. people are already looking to other platforms and word of mouth is powerful.. the more people that are drawn away.. the less money for palm.. thus even less development.. but like I keep saying.. i do have faith.. palm will not die! i'll still convince people to get the pre!
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       #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclancy View Post
    I'm also very much a "middle" everything person (including liking the middle of Oreo's more than liking Oreo on my phone!) I think college kids use cell phones instead of landlines these days, so I'd venture to say that more may have iPhones than we think - but the data plan for the iPhone probably does limit the number of college kids who(se parents) can afford them. I suspect this will change as smartphones become more prevalent and cheaper.

    I'd guess that somewhere around half probably have a laptop. These items are more important than things like a car these days. I'm over 50, and had my own computer while in college (but I was like one in 1000 back then). I think you are right that an iphone is still a college luxury, but a cell phone is not. D.Moss: How far away from reality are we?
    i attend a small college not far from baylor university in texas. and i can honestly say 2 out of every group of three you run across will have an iphone.. my "lady friend" (lol who goes to baylor) thinks the iphone is the greatest invention known to man and it is annoying.. she's been brainwashed by apples advertising, word of mouth (whether knowledgeable or not), and other companies lack to prove otherwise. i think the pre in its current state has the potential to be a much more useful device than the iphone.. palm needs to come with it.. and yeah.. these parents are paying that much for their rotten kids phones.. ugh..
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       #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by tomh1102 View Post
    oh, and please people stop comparing update frequencies between phones it has nothing to do with the update frequency and everything to do with the amount of things which needed to be updated and how many were taking care of in the update. If a phone is up to par with what is on the market than clearly there is no need to update, if a phone is lacking in functionality out of the box than clearly it should be expected to update as frequently as possible. once again not my fault as a consumer that palm is hurting financially, I bought this phone because I needed a phone that could be used for my business not because I wanted to be a hero and save palms business if so i would have just donated money to them.
    i don't compare the updates to apple. never did. i'm just saying if they really want to compete (with anybody) they really should be paying attention to these forums.. and speed it up.. and i'm not being a "hero" i'm just being loyal.. and i conduct business with my pre as well and i would like it to aid me in being more productive and more proactive. as i stated earlier.
  10. #50  
    I agree 100% with you d. moss a lot of ties on these forums I have been bashed on this forum by people who seem to be so obsessed with having a phone that is not an iphone and I can understand that, it's just that these people are not allowing themselves to see that this phone falls short in a lot of categories. I have never once stated that I hate this phone, I actually like it a lot for its potential. Although the phone has potential it is not being utilized and in a market where a phone only has a 2 year life span I feel that for the $500 that I paid for it after 5 months I should have far more functionality out of it.
    I have never stated that the phone has no potential i the future just that right now it is outclassed. You pre fanatics need to ease up and realize that all I am offering here is constructive criticism. If palm thinks that everybody is in love with their phones as is than why rush to upgrade anything, I am only voicing my opinion in hopes that palm will realize that the pre needs to step it up if they plan on keeping consumers interested. I am tired of you pre fanatics telling palm everything is great when you have to hack into your phone just to get functionality out of it 90% of us don't know how to hack our phones and don't care to.
  11. #51  
    sorry moss I was not referring to any of your comments but of the people who are saying "we have had four updates thats more than I had in this time with this phone". The amount of updates does not matter all of our updates have added little or no functionality. Sure I want palm to take care of security issues and speed and battery life, but more importantly I want the basic features that have been available on dumb phones for years enabled. Like you stated almost all the little missing features can be added with little patches so why can palm themselves not add these features.
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       #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by tomh1102 View Post
    I agree 100% with you d. moss a lot of ties on these forums I have been bashed on this forum by people who seem to be so obsessed with having a phone that is not an iphone and I can understand that, it's just that these people are not allowing themselves to see that this phone falls short in a lot of categories. I have never once stated that I hate this phone, I actually like it a lot for its potential. Although the phone has potential it is not being utilized and in a market where a phone only has a 2 year life span I feel that for the $500 that I paid for it after 5 months I should have far more functionality out of it.
    I have never stated that the phone has no potential i the future just that right now it is outclassed. You pre fanatics need to ease up and realize that all I am offering here is constructive criticism. If palm thinks that everybody is in love with their phones as is than why rush to upgrade anything, I am only voicing my opinion in hopes that palm will realize that the pre needs to step it up if they plan on keeping consumers interested. I am tired of you pre fanatics telling palm everything is great when you have to hack into your phone just to get functionality out of it 90% of us don't know how to hack our phones and don't care to.
    exactly.. all i'm offering is a little constuctive criticism.. some people just don't know how to debate without getting all emotional.. at any rate.. i like the palm pre's concept and wish the best for it.. for all of us loyal customes and some newcomers.. i hope we all finally get our moneys worth..
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by Change View Post
    Palm doesn't have the resources of Apple, Google, or even RIM. Nor does it have the market share of any of it's competitors. It's gaining ground, and the product is developing at a fairly rapid pace (I've been working in the software industry for 10+ years) considering it's been out since June and there's been multiple updates released.

    Besides, it's been out for 4 months. Will be 5 months in November. iPhone users had these same concerns 3 years ago. They went almost 8 months with only a handful of apps available to them, yet because the iPhone has been out for 3 years, you expect Palm to be beyond them in all aspects upon launch? Not possible, nor is it plausible.

    The way the software market works (lets face it, this is about the OS and not the hardware) is first to market, fix it when you can. The pre does things an iPhone cannot do, and the iPhone does things the Pre does, but only better. That will change with optimization of the OS over time. They had to get it to market first, to provide the headroom (financially speaking) for the development to continue. It's just how it works.

    What I don't understand, is how as a consumer anyone can buy into a new to market product, and expect it to be flawless? Ever buy a 1st generation build of a car? There's generally so many problems with a 1st gen car platform it's ridiculous. Software is no different, other than it can (and will) be fixed in time.
    You don't acknowledge that webOS could be left behind if these larger companies quickly rip it off. If Palm doesn't have enough resources while ahead of the game, then Palm definitely doesn't have the resources to play catch-up.
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       #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by Baryn View Post
    You don't acknowledge that webOS could be left behind if these larger companies quickly rip it off. If Palm doesn't have enough resources while ahead of the game, then Palm definitely doesn't have the resources to play catch-up.
    exactly.. that's all i'm sayin.. what keeps em special if others can emulate what the pre does.. though the pre is doing it in a way never done before on mobile platforms.. what does it matter if the outcome all looks the same.. pre is still the s*** though
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    #55  
    You're right, it's probably a generational thing. My expectations have been exceeded by the Pre, while your's haven't been met. But you really think the young college students are the primary owners of these type products? Can college kids really afford phones and phone plans like this in high numbers? If they can then maybe times have changed a lot more than I thought!!!

    xtn[/QUOTE]


    Not only can college kids afford these cell phones, but hgh schoolers account for a good portion of the cell phone market. I came from a 700wx treo and I was happy with sprint's service. I am 37 and I expected Palm to deliver a slightly better product. I am very happy with the phone, but it is definitley missing the noted features. I have never owned a iphone, but have considered looking at one. If att would offer a 99.00 dollar unlimited plan like the Pre, I think Palm would be in trouble. Also, the average joe buying a pre knows a little more about smart phones than you think.
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    #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by Baryn View Post
    You don't acknowledge that webOS could be left behind if these larger companies quickly rip it off. If Palm doesn't have enough resources while ahead of the game, then Palm definitely doesn't have the resources to play catch-up.
    Considering WebOS is proprietary to Palm, it can't be ripped off. Not without a huge lawsuit to follow.

    As far as duplicating functionality, let's be a bit more skeptic in our approach. How many companies are making touch enabled smart phones? Apple, Palm, RIM, Android, HTC, and possibly Samsung (hard to call some of their touch devices a "smart" device imo).

    All of them have proprietary OS platforms.

    Now, let's compare the platforms as is, out of the box.

    Apple: plenty of apps, very little business functionality.

    Palm: Good business functionality (used to be GREAT on Palm OS), very little apps. Multitask capabilities, currently only runs off RAM and no access to GPU.

    Android: Multitasking capabilities, each phone (G1, Euro Hero, US Hero) all run the same OS, but different development standards and underpinnings (Sense UI, etc...) OS is sluggish compared to WebOS (proven by numerous phone review sites) due to the consistently running background processes.

    RIM: Let's be honest, does anyone enjoy their Blackberry Touch? I don't know one person who does. RIM has endured Epic failure with this device because their corporate contracts are so strong.

    HTC: Will abandon their proprietary platforms for Android. Not much to discuss here.

    Samsung: They pick up the stragglers with a few "wanna-be" iphone-like devices with a much cheaper price point, less powerful hardware, and less functionality than the iphone. Not a serious competitor imo.

    Clearly, iPhone is the king in the realm of touch devices at this time. However, what Palm and Google (Android) have done, is develop two alternatives for apple haters/non-at&t subscribers, which also incorporate multitasking capabilities. How many business professionals do you know with an iPhone? As a business professional myself, I can say it's rare to come accross one in the corporate world. Blackberry owns this realm, clearly. But they're losing ground, as better, smarter phones become available.

    For RIM to compete with Palm & Android in the business market with a touch device, they'd have to rework their OS from the bottom up. It's that poor, and even when hacked, cannot handle the majority of what a droid or palm device can do. RIM isn't about to invest $20MM in capacative touch R&D so they can compete. They'll most likely keep churning out BB devices without touch, that fit the needs of a majority of corporate users. They'll still win the business market by a landslide.

    Apple has shown it has no deep rooted desire to invade the corporate realm. They don't care if you can't push your email to their device, because they're attitude of superiority says your business isn't that important to them. They've captured the teen/college age market with a great device. Forget about the fact it only had a handful of apps in its first 8 months on market, or that it didn't have video recording until the 3G version, or that it lacks other basic functionality out of the box, just like Palm . Of course as they say... "there's an app for that" and there is.

    Palm's WebOS has been available on the market for less than 5 mos. Out of the box, it's light years ahead of Apple on the business side of things (what Palm does best) but compared to it's prior devices, falls short in some areas as well. Compared to the droid based phones, it's simply faster at this time, but with less available apps. Out of the box, the Pre is much more responsive, functional, and user intuitive than the droids.

    So what happens if Apple tries to incorporate multitasking? Not much. Apple still doesn't desire to own the business market users, because it will make their product uncool for the college level kids. Simple marketing fact. Truth is, young people aged 18-28 spend over $10B a year on electronics in the US alone, possibly more. That's the demographic Apple cares about. So if they introduce multitasking and more business capability, it's going to be a while... the 3GS just came out. I'd expect a year or so before a 4th gen hits the market.

    I realize it's a long winded post, but everyone needs to understand the business logic behind these devices. Apple is not competing with Palm or Android, and they won't even acknowledge RIM's existence. Palm and Android may be trying to compte with Apple, but they're also targeting a much wider demographic than Apple cares to deliver to. Specifically, they're trying to capture the non-at&t subscribers with their devices.

    What it really comes down to, in my opinion, is what Verizon chooses to do. They're marketing the crap out of this new droid coming in a few weeks. When the Pre lands on their network in 2010, will they push it just as hard? If so, Palm and Droid will be serious competitors in the world of business tweeners (people like me, who require business functionality but want the fun of an iphone-like device) and non-at&t subscribers. However, if Verizon decides to not push the Pre with a slew of clever marketing, Palm will be in trouble within 2 years time, guaranteed.

    So the short truth of this discussion is this. The phones basic functionality out of the box, is truly a mute point for the majority of potential owners. The marketing is the key. Sprint has failed at it, and Verizon is great at it. Palm's fate lies in the hands of Verizon.

    As for me, my contract is up in 2 years... and the Pre's potential is enormous in it's current state. Once the GPU access is enabled, Android devices will be hurting to match the speed and functionality. But even if the potential is never realized, I enjoy the phone for it's current capabilities far more than I enjoyed my 700p. Bottom line, it's a great device for the majority (as XTN mentioned per the previous claims, 98% of users) of it's owners.
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    #57  
    ...what keeps it special...

    For me, it just works - and works well. Sure, there are a few annoyances (which are no doubt fixed w/ Preware (haven't taken the leap yet)) but it does everything I want it to do the way I would expect it to and w/o crashing.

    I've used both an iPhone and a BB and the Pre was for me.
  18. #58  
    when all of a sudden i need to do other things with the phone at the same time, and the phone lets me. Then i think how awsome is this phone.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by Change View Post
    I'd venture to say that 90% or higher of Pre owners have never heard of precentral, don't have a clue what hacking means, or give a rats about patches or homebrewed apps. They bought the phone because they like it, and that's it.
    Certainly almost accurate percentage. "90-9-1" Rule for Participation Inequality: Lurkers vs. Contributors in Internet Communities (Jakob Nielsen's Alertbox)
  20. #60  
    The future for WebOS has too cool an upside to not stick around.
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