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  1.    #1  
    This is a serious question.

    How is Jason (1 guy) able to create all these tweaks that Palm can not (or will not)? It is obvious these are things people want for their Pre. Palm has many more resources, yet they turn out 1.2. Sure, it has some added features, but let's face it, it doesn't come close to the tweaks provided in QI.

    I'm not a programmer, so maybe there is something I am unaware of, but I am sure I am not the only one here wondering the same thing.

    Jason, you are the man! Next to WebOS, QI seems to be the core of the Pre's functionality.
  2. MaxLOL's Avatar
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    #2  
    lol
  3. Pardoe's Avatar
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    #3  
    The reason why palm wont give you all these things right away is so you have something that keeps you wanting more
    if you got a perfect phone right away
    then there wont be anything new or cool to add to it and your phone wont be any different than anybody elses
    so they keep you wanting more so you get all excited about the little things
    Once you are in Hell, Only the Devil can help you

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  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by Pardoe View Post
    The reason why palm wont give you all these things right away is so you have something that keeps you wanting more
    if you got a perfect phone right away
    then there wont be anything new or cool to add to it and your phone wont be any different than anybody elses
    so they keep you wanting more so you get all excited about the little things
    BS. That would only hurt them.

    When you release a product to the market (phone, computer, car, etc), its features have been tested and retested because they're expected to work under all conditions. Aftermarket changes are not put through the same ropes, so they're generally a mix of things that improve performance while degrading reliability, simplifications that remove features users consider unnecessary, and legitimate innovations the OEM just didn't think of.

    It's no different from overclocking your CPU or gutting all the bloatware that came installed for Grandma's sake. Or upping the boost on your turbo car or gutting silly "exhaust gas recirculation" valves.

    People expect a finished product to work from day one with few hiccups. Guys who hack phones or turn wrenches accept that they might end up having to replace some files or spend some time under the hood, as the tradeoff for added functionality.

    Innovation is a bumpier ride than the status quo, but for some people it's worth it.
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by cagefighter View Post
    This is a serious question.

    How is Jason (1 guy) able to create all these tweaks that Palm can not (or will not)? It is obvious these are things people want for their Pre. Palm has many more resources, yet they turn out 1.2. Sure, it has some added features, but let's face it, it doesn't come close to the tweaks provided in QI.

    I'm not a programmer, so maybe there is something I am unaware of, but I am sure I am not the only one here wondering the same thing.

    Jason, you are the man! Next to WebOS, QI seems to be the core of the Pre's functionality.
    I think its funny you think Jason "created" all these tweaks. Most of these tweaks were submitted by random people to the webos-internals.org wiki and long before they were available in any user friendly installer.
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by cagefighter View Post
    This is a serious question.

    How is Jason (1 guy) able to create all these tweaks that Palm can not (or will not)? It is obvious these are things people want for their Pre. Palm has many more resources, yet they turn out 1.2. Sure, it has some added features, but let's face it, it doesn't come close to the tweaks provided in QI.

    I'm not a programmer, so maybe there is something I am unaware of, but I am sure I am not the only one here wondering the same thing.

    Jason, you are the man! Next to WebOS, QI seems to be the core of the Pre's functionality.
    You do realise that all the patches that are packaged up for use by WebOS Quick Install (a tool written by Jason) and Preware (a tool written by the WebOS Internals team, not by Jason) are actually written by a whole heap of different developers, and only a few of them are actually written by Jason?

    You also may not realise that the decision to use the open standard patch format for these tweaks and patches was made by the WebOS Internals team (not by Jason), and the wiki in which these tweaks and patches were originally contributed is maintained by the WebOS Internals team (not by Jason) and assistance to the authors of all these patches was done primarily by members of the WebOS Internals team in the #webos-internals IRC channel (not by Jason).

    You also may not realise that the AutoPatch technology which allows these patches to be turned into installable packages was created by the WebOS Internals team (not by Jason).

    You also may not realise that the negotiations that allowed an open standard homebrew package format that supports themes and patches were led by the WebOS Internals team (not by Jason, who was actually arguing against such a format at the start), and the servers which host all the packages, themes and patches in the feeds at preware.org were paid for, were set up by, and are maintained by the WebOS Internals team (not by Jason).

    You also may not realise that the conception, design, implementation and maintenance of the Preware application is done by the WebOS Internals team (not by Jason).

    Don't get me wrong, Jason does great things with WebOS Quick Install, and he has worked hard to package up these patches as tweaks that can be applied easily with that tool, and he does have a lot of original work and effort in other things that WebOS Quick Install does. But don't make the mistake of thinking that the person who has done the front-end of one tool is responsible for everything behind it and other tools and infrastructure that he has made it compatible with.

    And we do know that Jason has not tried to take credit for anything that he has not done. He's a good guy and he and the WebOS Internals team collaborate well together.

    -- Rod
    Last edited by rwhitby; 10/07/2009 at 12:46 AM.
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
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    #7  
    Not to take anything away from Jason, but tweaks are a collective effort of people from webOS internals team including help from Jason. But yea Palm should look at these tweaks as things they might want to incorporate in a future update.
  8.    #8  
    I was not aware of that. Thanks to WebOS Internals and ALL the other contributors then!

    Nevertheless, it would seem since it is "Palm technology" they would have one up on everyone else, but you guys are really on top of it!

    WebOS Internals is not affiliated (or part of) Palm then, correct?
    Last edited by cagefighter; 10/07/2009 at 12:33 AM. Reason: Typos
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by cagefighter View Post
    I was not aware of that. Thanks to WebOS Internals and ALL the other contributors then!

    Nevertheless, it would seem since it is "Palm technology" they would have one up on everyone else, but you guys are really on top of it!

    WebOS Internals is not affiliated (or part of) Palm then, correct?
    That is correct. We did license all the patches in such a way that Palm is freely able to pick them up and include them in the next version of webOS, but they have not chosen to do so yet ...

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  10. #10  
    and to Jason's credit, he did create a greate recovery tool for 1.2 (can't wait for the 1.2.1 recovery update), greate interface for the tweaks.. and as far as I know, he's never taken credit for all of the tweaks.. he's very open about where he gets them from.

    Overall, the Pre community has been a great one for development on the phone with tweaks, programs, etc...

    Plus those of us that can't program still rock, since we were all cool enough to get a Pre..
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by imtravis View Post
    and to Jason's credit, he did create a greate recovery tool for 1.2 (can't wait for the 1.2.1 recovery update), greate interface for the tweaks.. and as far as I know, he's never taken credit for all of the tweaks.. he's very open about where he gets them from.
    That is very true, this misconception about where things come from is not Jason's fault - he has never tried to take credit for anything he has not done himself.

    I've updated my post to reflect that too.

    We're working with him right now, in fact, to make sure that the names of the original authors of the patches can be kept intact throughout the whole process from author submission to installation by the multiple means by which patches and tweaks are installed.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  12. #12  
    @cagefighter

    I'm sure Palm can do a lot (or all) of these things, since a few of them are also lines of codes that are already there in the WebOS core but commented out. It's just that they cannot release something new without testing - the liability due to any mass failure will be huge.

    Here, you do the tweaks at your own risk! And kudos that Palm, unlike Apple, allows that!

    That being said, a big thanks to the WebOS Internals and Precentral community!
  13. #13  
    I'm not out to defend Palm but it's different for independent devs to work on this stuff. They can attend to what they deem important and interesting and don't have the company's business imperatives and fickle designers to answer to. Priorities play a big part in what gets done or left broken.
    Last edited by sivan; 10/07/2009 at 05:20 AM.
  14. #14  
    Working for a big company that releases a lot of stuff myself I can tell you this:

    It's IMPOSSIBLE to tell from the outside why things that may seem no-brainers / completely obvious don't happen as fast as you'd want them to happen. There can be many reasons why it's not happening which has probably mostly to do with setting priorities. The things we see are apparently not high on Palm's priority list, for reasons we don't know.
    My shiny new TouchPad apps: Scientific RPN Calculator HD - Screamager HD
  15. #15  
    I think a more accurate summation would be:

    Precentral community + devs + webos internals > Palm
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  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaurav View Post
    I think a more accurate summation would be:

    Precentral community + devs + webos internals > Palm
    I'll drink to that!
  17. #17  
    Slight edit:

    Precentral community + devs + webos internals + Palm = Super Productivity Platform for the rest of us! {Jonathan}
  18. xtn
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    #18  
    As to the original question of why Palm isn't ahead of the aftermarket with regard to tweaks... I'll say this:

    I like a few of the tweeks made available by the wonderful devs around here, but I wouldn't choose all of them. If Palm had integrated them all into the Pre I would not like it as much. I actually PREFER that they are "homebrew" and optional, so we can all pick which ones suit us.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Robitaille View Post
    I'll drink to that!
    I'll drink to you, mate.

    I know that you don't ask for this misdirected credit to be coming your way, and I also know that it causes you additional support load when people think for some reason that problems with patches and Preware should be sent to you.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMarco View Post
    It's IMPOSSIBLE to tell from the outside why things that may seem no-brainers / completely obvious don't happen as fast as you'd want them to happen. There can be many reasons why it's not happening which has probably mostly to do with setting priorities. The things we see are apparently not high on Palm's priority list, for reasons we don't know.
    Exactly.

    Palm has an internal process for making changes to the WebOS that goes way beyond just coding. First they have to decide what changes to include in any particular release. At some point the release will be locked down and no more changes will be allowed. Next, the developers will code the changes. The prerelease is then handed off to QA, who will test to make sure the changes don't break anything or conflict with existing functionality. If QA finds problems they send the release back to dev for resolution. This back and forth goes on until QA passes the release. Then Tech Writers have to document the changes before it can be released to market.

    Add to this that a large part of the work on any release is devoted to fixing bugs from previous releases and you can see that there is less time to concentrate on new features.

    Finally, the Pre is first and foremost a phone, and Palm has a responsibility to Sprint, O2, Bell and other service providers to make sure that nothing in any new release breaks that functionality, so testing by the providers has to be integrated into the process as well.

    It's a convoluted process that has to be followed to ensure that the OS is stable, and unfortunately it means that even simple functions that already exist in the OS, such as a flashing LED for notifications, have to go through the process before a new version can be released.

    The homebrew devs are not as constrained by this process, although I'm sure there's a lot of crosstalk and coordination before a patch gets posted. They have the luxury of offering patches up on a "use at your own risk" basis, and users understand that they may have to doctor their phones if things go south.

    All in all, we're very fortunate that Palm fosters the dev community and doesn't take steps to prevent homebrew development from taking place.
    When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
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