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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by punzada View Post
    Are you a professional .NET developer or something?

    You're the most opposed I've ever seen someone to FOSS solutions.
    Not opposed at all. FOSS is important when significant advances are made available to a large number of people

    But I don't understand the mindset of taking someone's work, looking at the code and releasing your own free version of it. Just because webOS is built on JavaScript doesn't mean everything is up for grabs.

    I also reject the comparison with the general availability for viewing of client side source on web pages. Those are front ends to server side business functionality that is the core of the product. Here you believe you're entitled to access everything in the application and make it free. And you're doing it for street cred, let's not pretend otherwise.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mattykinsx View Post
    I ask this [not knowing the answer]

    Are there apps on the store for the iphone, the G1, etc that cost money?

    [If not, I see a big big big problem here]

    And, do pay-for apps have a certain quality expected? [What I mean by that is, you can't sell an app that is just another memo app]



    While the OP was rather crude in what they were stating, I agree with them.
    I understand that devs need to make a living too, but I'm worried about two things.
    Holding back necessities for money purposes, and competition with other phones.

    And at what point do people start charging for everything they do?
    "Want WebOS Quick Install? $9.99 please"
    WOW, and that is how we spell HIJACK where Im from... IMO, a new thread would have been a better idea, as the OP had a different concern than you bring up, even if he did it the way a couch toting 14 yr old would have.

    To the OPs question: no one WANTS to dole out their dough, but the fact remains that the GOOD apps are only created due to financial incentive. No one does anything for free, and those that do are just able to fund the effort in a different way (advertising, selling data, etc). We are a VERY lucky community to have people that have been willing to go out on a limb and provide free apps as homebrews prior to the fullscale launch of the app store.

    As to the concerns raised by the hijacker: if you want free apps, Im sure you will still find plenty of them. Dont want to pay? Either get the government to subsidize it for you, and if that fails then dont bother purchasing. Im not being a smartass either, but am poking a bit of fun at the way the questions came across, so please dont take offense. I too share a concern that 75% of the apps I might consider buying may be garbage. To this end, Im hoping that there are trial periods built into most apps, and if not, we have resources like precentral who may be so kind as to keep a rating system of review system of apps so that we may know something about the product prior to purchase.
  3.    #43  
    hahaha sorry sivan no donate button. but yea the apps that are free now should stay free.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by Willmays87 View Post
    hahaha sorry sivan no donate button. but yea the apps that are free now should stay free.
    Dont mean to burst your bubble, but the guys making these 'free' apps are testing them, getting feedback, after which they will likely graduate to paid apps. Usually, however, the developer is kind to those that helped the dev effort, and offers a discounted price (outside the appstore of course) to those that helped during the homebrew stage. Not that it will become a rule, but several devs have already extended such offers.

    As far as the apps in the appstore already, it wouldnt surprise me to see a few stay free, but only the ones that have built-in ads. All these 'demo' and 'trial' apps will likely become paid ones. Its not fast or simple to develop apps, god knows I never could, so it seems reasonable to pay for such things.
  5. #45  
    I'm all for paid apps. I can't wait for the GSM release either. I hope more apps get developed once there are more users.
  6. punzada's Avatar
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    #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Not opposed at all. FOSS is important when significant advances are made available to a large number of people

    But I don't understand the mindset of taking someone's work, looking at the code and releasing your own free version of it. Just because webOS is built on JavaScript doesn't mean everything is up for grabs.

    I also reject the comparison with the general availability for viewing of client side source on web pages. Those are front ends to server side business functionality that is the core of the product. Here you believe you're entitled to access everything in the application and make it free. And you're doing it for street cred, let's not pretend otherwise.
    Learning from code doesn't necessarily mean you're going to build anywhere near the same application once you realize other methods, or derived methods that come from it - and that's IF you look at the code, which I never mentioned in this thread. While being a proponent of GPL and similar licenses I never condone the stealing of code that is closed if you've seen any of my previous posts on here around the subject I make that abundantly clear.

    Simply seeing its possible without looking at the code can be inspiration for open developers to figure out a similar way to do it was the point I was making - which instead of being locked into a particular application can provide advancement to a multitude of others.

    I don't really understand the 'street cred' statement. As stated previously, I simply actively encourage open source development and believe the 'competition' that it generates against proprietary technology helps the end user in the long run, where you got on this idea that I'm for opening up all software and copying code directly I have no idea.
  7. #47  
    Oh and BTW...Winmo still has 1000's of free apps BUT they are releasing their own app store too to ensure quality. Nothing like adding a free app and it somehow tanks your phone...lol. I am all for the app store. It will ensure innovation and quality.

    THANKS TO ALL HOMEBREW DEVELOPERS WHO HAVE GIVEN US WHAT WE HAVE! FREE OR PAID!

    Now after stiffeling a bit here....i gotta go ****.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by Willmays87 View Post
    OH MY ****IN god why the hell is palm and everyone so excitd about being able to pay for apps??? I mean are there goin to be all new apps that come with the real app catalog?? or are they goin to be the same apps just priced??? if so that is sooooo lame and they should be shot!! sumone please shed some light on this issue!!!
    I've worked many, many hours on Word Whirl. If there was no possibility of pay, I could not justify the time spent on it. i.e. THE APP WOULD NOT EXIST. Everything in life has an opportunity cost and I have many things needing done.
    Your Pre wants Word Whirl from the App Catalog.

    It told me.
  9.    #49  
    im not for paid apps. i mean the apps are good but not good enough to be paid for. sorry there goin to find a way to make the apps free like theyve made just about every single iphone app free. i kno ppl that get them for free. its just the way it is and i can wait for that to happen. because in rough times as we are in now the last thing we need is for crappy apps to have a price tag on them. until really great apps come out then i dont see a point in makin them not free. like the app where it will tell you where cops are in the area now thats a app thats productive and fun and i would pay for that...
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by Willmays87 View Post
    im not for paid apps. i mean the apps are good but not good enough to be paid for. sorry there goin to find a way to make the apps free like theyve made just about every single iphone app free. i kno ppl that get them for free. its just the way it is and i can wait for that to happen. because in rough times as we are in now the last thing we need is for crappy apps to have a price tag on them. until really great apps come out then i dont see a point in makin them not free. like the app where it will tell you where cops are in the area now thats a app thats productive and fun and i would pay for that...
    If you are only using the free iPhone apps, then you are using most of the crappiest apps on the iPhone. The good quality apps start at $2-3. And most of the free versions of decent apps have features removed for the free version that are available for a couple bucks.

    Do you understand that it takes hundreds of hours to make a polished app? While it is great to release software for the common good (Open Source Software or Free Software), it isn't a requirement. I use free software everyday (Ubuntu Linux), yet I just shelled out nearly $100 for licenses to Beyond Compare, because the utility of the software is worth the money.

    The apps that are free will likely stay free, unless they were demo versions. Many new apps will be available for money. Your sense of entitlement is impressive.
    Your Pre wants Word Whirl from the App Catalog.

    It told me.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by punzada View Post
    Are you a professional .NET developer or something?

    You're the most opposed I've ever seen someone to FOSS solutions.
    Being a fan and contributor for FOSS is not mutually exclusive to wanting to sell software. Even FOSS apps, like Spaz, are planning on charging in the App Catalog. And not all software must be open source.

    How exactly are programmers supposed to eat if everything they write is free open source?
    Your Pre wants Word Whirl from the App Catalog.

    It told me.
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by punzada View Post
    Learning from code doesn't necessarily mean you're going to build anywhere near the same application once you realize other methods, or derived methods that come from it - and that's IF you look at the code, which I never mentioned in this thread. While being a proponent of GPL and similar licenses I never condone the stealing of code that is closed if you've seen any of my previous posts on here around the subject I make that abundantly clear.
    Weasel words. You posted about unpackaging apps to see how they work. And you posted about being inspired by apps to make free versions of them. So if you feel inspired by an app and want to make a free version of it, you won't look at the code?

    In the real world, would you expect to be able to walk into any business and observe how it works to further your knowledge? Will anyone let you in if you explained you wanted to share their processes with everyone?

    Simply seeing its possible without looking at the code can be inspiration for open developers to figure out a similar way to do it was the point I was making - which instead of being locked into a particular application can provide advancement to a multitude of others.
    "Simply seeing it's possible". It's not simple to make something possible. You prefer to let others do the hard work of figuring out if it's possible, and then imitate them. BTW, what's not possible? Almost anything is possible with enough effort. But you don't want the uncertainty and want to see someone else do it first.

    I don't really understand the 'street cred' statement. As stated previously, I simply actively encourage open source development and believe the 'competition' that it generates against proprietary technology helps the end user in the long run, where you got on this idea that I'm for opening up all software and copying code directly I have no idea.
    You do this for recognition, and maybe even paid gigs down the road.

    Why are you quoting "competition"? Obviously, it's a competition on price, and yours is free. It's free because you have an abundance of time and don't need to be compensated for it, at least not right away.

    The value of Linux became apparent in a market dominated by Windows and smaller cost-prohibitive Unix variants. As computing became pervasive and dependence grew on proprietary operating systems, which did lock the user in to further their grip, then it was time for a FOSS alternative. In that market, with Microsoft quashing all commercial competition, FOSS was the only hope for an alternative. That's one kind of FOSS that I see as valuable.

    Another kind is the project that's started a by a developer who wants a feature that doesn't get developed because it doesn't have an obvious business model, even though there is a need for it. Great stuff and lots of niche development tools start that way.

    What's common here is that the FOSS product provides an alternative for a market that's underserved by commercial products.

    Your idea of releasing software from being proprietary, of being "inspired" by webOS apps to create free versions that compete with them, strikes me more as coming from a student or hobbyist with nothing better to do than ape commercial products and get credit for it. Unfortunately, you are right that webOS is very accommodating to your hobby and unfortunate to others if developers are discouraged from releasing apps for it.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  13. #53  
    Well, this topic became entertaining.

    I think, just to simply state, the big deal of paid apps is it entices developers that their works isn't for naught. And I'm ok with giving developers financial incentive to continue to develop great stuff (and I say this even on a machine that runs plenty of FOSS).

    The only caveat is that...as with everything, with paid apps will come piracy (as it did for the iPhone and...I don't know, but it probably has done so for Android too). So I mean, this is terrible to say, but all the rabble rousers about paid apps shouldn't even be complaning, because most likely, leeches are going to leech. Pirates will be pirates.
  14. drizek's Avatar
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    #54  
    I don't see piracy becoming an issue unless Palm decides to go all RIM on us. Apple and ANdroid both had good ideas for preventing piracy. Apple set the price floor at $.99 and Google has a 24 hour return policy. I would never pay more than $.99 for an app without having either a Lite version to try out first or the ability to return it. I have read many reviews of expensive iPhone apps where the app was just plain broken, and purchasers had no ability to test it before hand.

    Some developers seem to think that they can charge up to $30 for a phone app(Classic is an example). This is a terrible way of going about trying to be compensated for your work, but unfortunately I don't think there are enough developers on this platform to get the type of competition required to push prices down to where they need to be. $1-$3 is the sweet spot.

    The high cost of apps is why Windows Mobile never really took off as a platform, and why PalmOS failed as well. If you wanted to do anything you were nickle and dimed the whole way through. Apple was the first to offer an elegant and affordable alternative to Handango Hell. If Palm doesn't build an App Catalog pricing scheme that is agreeable to both users and developers, WebOS will fail too.
  15. punzada's Avatar
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    #55  
    I did post about unpacking apps, anyone who read that thread would also note that I mentioned immediately about respecting the license for the code as well. That being said, if I wanted to make an open alternative to an app what would be gained by directly stealing the code from it? a nice cease a desist? a law suit? There would be no point - so no I would not just copy and paste the code. I'm not trying to go on some Richard Stallman-esque crusade against proprietary software - I'm simply trying to encourage open development and to get more value out of commerical offerings in the process - I honestly can't see how I'm being so negatively regarded in this manner it helps everyone.

    I've asked developers to contribute as openly as they can to help the growing free development community around this platform and have opened up GPL apps to learn from them (For the record - The apps I've taken apart is the terminal application as I've said before I consider it to be the most important app currently available and some back-end type stuff like the integration of ipkg-opt/Preware).

    I'm not asking for recognition, I'm not asking for money down the road. I'm certainly no 'weasel' either (although I had ferrets for pets some years ago, they were quite cute). All I've done so far is help people out where I can by working with the webos-internals team and showing people how I got IRC and Bitlbee packages working. I do not plan to commercially develop for the product and *still* although being a major proponent of a more open community forming around the device have no problem with closed commercial development, more development for the platform in general the better in my opinion.

    I am a hobbyist, a proud hobbyist. I just want to see the platform grow.

    That's basically all I have left to say on this subject in this thread, I seem to have to defend myself when I've done nothing but voice a pro-FOSS opinion and actively help the community, which I feel can be better done then going back and forth in some pissing contest where I get accused of having some large scheming plan.
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by punzada View Post
    I'm simply trying to encourage open development and to get more value out of commerical offerings in the process - I honestly can't see how I'm being so negatively regarded in this manner it helps everyone.
    What do you mean by getting more value out of commercial offerings? This and your previous posts read as if you believe commercial developers have some kind of obligation to give away their stuff and their presence here is valuable in motivating you and your cohorts to compete with them by making a free version. Quite a welcome note.

    Nobody is going to stop you from learning and tinkering but leave it to developers to decide what to give and where to help.
  17. noaxis2's Avatar
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    #57  
    What's the problem with releasing in Homebrew first as donationware then "graduating" to the app catalog?



    Being me has its advantages.

    -- Albus Dumbledore, Headmaster, Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by drizek View Post
    I don't see piracy becoming an issue unless Palm decides to go all RIM on us. Apple and ANdroid both had good ideas for preventing piracy. Apple set the price floor at $.99 and Google has a 24 hour return policy. I would never pay more than $.99 for an app without having either a Lite version to try out first or the ability to return it. I have read many reviews of expensive iPhone apps where the app was just plain broken, and purchasers had no ability to test it before hand.
    What Apple did, unintentionally I think, was bringing the iTunes $0.99 track pricing point to the app store and set price expectations accordingly. And listening to people clamoring for more apps, and having them right now, without specific needs, tells me that apps have become a form of tech entertainment, not unlike downloading tracks from iTunes.

    People can have different price expectations depending on context. They will pay $20-30 for sharewares on their PC, but expect $2-3 for an app of the equivalent functionality on their phone. The difference is entirely psychological.

    With all that said, I don't see any reason why Palm wouldn't offer trials or 24 hours refund window. I personally think the refund period is simpler and does not require crippling app functionality which is just more more for the developer.

    Some developers seem to think that they can charge up to $30 for a phone app(Classic is an example). This is a terrible way of going about trying to be compensated for your work, but unfortunately I don't think there are enough developers on this platform to get the type of competition required to push prices down to where they need to be. $1-$3 is the sweet spot.
    It's not that there are not enough developers, but not enough users to push it so low while still letting the developer make it up in numbers. And even then, the jury is still out on the iPhone app store. The overwhelming majority of developers see poor returns on their investments even with heaps of $1 apps.

    The utility of an app should determine how much it's worth, especially how much time and effort it saves someone. Each of us has a different calculation here. Someone who has more time than money not only doesn't want to spend, but also sees less value in software that saves time.

    $30 for Classic is not much for someone who has many years of data and software stored on their old Palm device and wants to keep using them on the Pre. The developer made a calculated guess at how many people will be interested in the software and how much is needed to cover costs.

    The high cost of apps is why Windows Mobile never really took off as a platform, and why PalmOS failed as well. If you wanted to do anything you were nickle and dimed the whole way through. Apple was the first to offer an elegant and affordable alternative to Handango Hell. If Palm doesn't build an App Catalog pricing scheme that is agreeable to both users and developers, WebOS will fail too.
    I don't recall being nickel and dimed through the years. I still bought what was essential and affordable. Nobody made you buy anything, not even the Palm device you were using. You could always carry pen and paper and not worry about app stores. I agree though that Handango was a rip off for developers.

    I don't think Palm has any role to play in setting prices, other than smoothing the transaction, installation and refund processes. I would much rather see normal pricing instead of a race to the bottom, especially on a new platform that needs to attract quality development. I don't know if that's possible now that the app store has set a precedent. But remember, it's too early to call the app store a success. There are a indications that developers are mostly burning through time and cash there.
    Last edited by sivan; 09/21/2009 at 04:15 AM.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by drizek View Post
    I don't see piracy becoming an issue unless Palm decides to go all RIM on us. Apple and ANdroid both had good ideas for preventing piracy. Apple set the price floor at $.99 and Google has a 24 hour return policy. I would never pay more than $.99 for an app without having either a Lite version to try out first or the ability to return it. I have read many reviews of expensive iPhone apps where the app was just plain broken, and purchasers had no ability to test it before hand.

    Some developers seem to think that they can charge up to $30 for a phone app(Classic is an example). This is a terrible way of going about trying to be compensated for your work, but unfortunately I don't think there are enough developers on this platform to get the type of competition required to push prices down to where they need to be. $1-$3 is the sweet spot.

    The high cost of apps is why Windows Mobile never really took off as a platform, and why PalmOS failed as well. If you wanted to do anything you were nickle and dimed the whole way through. Apple was the first to offer an elegant and affordable alternative to Handango Hell. If Palm doesn't build an App Catalog pricing scheme that is agreeable to both users and developers, WebOS will fail too.

    I agree with the 24hr return policy.. This method is simple and you get to try out the full app. If your not happy you get your money back and both parties are happy. Its just enough of a tease to where if its a good app then ur going to keep it..
  20. #60  
    24 hours refund also eliminates the extra effort of having to develop a Lite and Full version for trial ware. I like it.
    Your Pre wants Word Whirl from the App Catalog.

    It told me.
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