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  1. snimaster's Avatar
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       #1  
    Guys do you think it would be possible to get a kick starter going for ACL for the HP Pre 3 and/or HP Veer? I would personally love to run android apps on my Webos phones. What you guys think?
    brum and Garfonso like this.
  2. #2  
    Quote Originally Posted by snimaster View Post
    Guys do you think it would be possible to get a kick starter going for ACL for the HP Pre 3 and/or HP Veer? I would personally love to run android apps on my Webos phones. What you guys think?
    Unless you are connected to openmobileww, I doubt you will be able to do this. The recent controversies show that although some of it is opensource software, the ACL is in part, proprietary technology. They rewrote the loader rather than use a GPL version. So the choice to develop this further is openmobile's.

    However, it was / is a stretch goal of the original Kickstarter to make the product available for the Pre3, so if enough copies of the current version are sold and if OM make money from their Appmall, then they may consider that it is worth doing this without a further kickstarter.

    Given the delays and difficulties so far, I doubt another kickstarter will gain the same level of support. It also seems that significant 'tuning' is required for specific hardware, so it is hard to say how practical development is for small userbases. Possibly OM decided to go ahead before because firesale pricing meant that every manufactured TP was sold (and HP made some more!) and PIC were offering some cash. OM may have thought that lacking OEM interest, they could show an actual released product and make a bit of money. The kickstarter money was actually pretty low given the wages of a developer and the time taken. It's also hard to know how many people worked on it and when the apparent deal with Tizen happened. Samsung's money is probably of more interest than the few remaining webOS users.

    So, I would say your best bet for the ACL is to buy OM's product, use their Appmall & cross your fingers.

    If you can't wait, then this project is looking good: (Pre3) AndroidChroot - run android inside webOS
    It is largely a one-man effort and it is early days, but reports are positive. It supports the official Google store (ACL has to be hacked for that). It also looks like it will run on the Veer. There is a donation link, so you can put your money there and support development in the webOS community.

    As our hardware dies, at this time our best hope for webOS on mobile is the webOS-Ports project. As most porting targets will be Android phones, I'd guess running AndroidChroot won't present too many difficulties and this project is open to other developers, so at this time, I'd guess this is the best hope for leveraging Android apps on webOS in the future.
  3. snimaster's Avatar
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       #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by Preemptive View Post
    Unless you are connected to openmobileww, I doubt you will be able to do this. The recent controversies show that although some of it is opensource software, the ACL is in part, proprietary technology. They rewrote the loader rather than use a GPL version. So the choice to develop this further is openmobile's.

    However, it was / is a stretch goal of the original Kickstarter to make the product available for the Pre3, so if enough copies of the current version are sold and if OM make money from their Appmall, then they may consider that it is worth doing this without a further kickstarter.

    Given the delays and difficulties so far, I doubt another kickstarter will gain the same level of support. It also seems that significant 'tuning' is required for specific hardware, so it is hard to say how practical development is for small userbases. Possibly OM decided to go ahead before because firesale pricing meant that every manufactured TP was sold (and HP made some more!) and PIC were offering some cash. OM may have thought that lacking OEM interest, they could show an actual released product and make a bit of money. The kickstarter money was actually pretty low given the wages of a developer and the time taken. It's also hard to know how many people worked on it and when the apparent deal with Tizen happened. Samsung's money is probably of more interest than the few remaining webOS users.

    So, I would say your best bet for the ACL is to buy OM's product, use their Appmall & cross your fingers.

    If you can't wait, then this project is looking good: (Pre3) AndroidChroot - run android inside webOS
    It is largely a one-man effort and it is early days, but reports are positive. It supports the official Google store (ACL has to be hacked for that). It also looks like it will run on the Veer. There is a donation link, so you can put your money there and support development in the webOS community.

    As our hardware dies, at this time our best hope for webOS on mobile is the webOS-Ports project. As most porting targets will be Android phones, I'd guess running AndroidChroot won't present too many difficulties and this project is open to other developers, so at this time, I'd guess this is the best hope for leveraging Android apps on webOS in the future.
    I am currently in talks with openmobile about the idea. I will keep you guys up to date. This will help in allowing webOS to keep up to date when it comes to apps. Is anybody interested in this idea?
  4. #4  
    I am not even sure, that it'll work.

    I mean, let's face it, the Pre3 is no RAM wonder. And if you see what ACL does to the Touchpad, space-wise, you might doubt, that something like that would even run (not even talking of running smoothly).

    I seriously would recommend anyone who is trying anything like this, to check first how the chances are, that the endeavour is even realistic, before trying to take money for it...

    Just my 2-euro-cent
    War doesn't prove who's right, only who's left...
    geekpeter likes this.
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy1969 View Post
    I am not even sure, that it'll work.

    I mean, let's face it, the Pre3 is no RAM wonder. And if you see what ACL does to the Touchpad, space-wise, you might doubt, that something like that would even run (not even talking of running smoothly).

    I seriously would recommend anyone who is trying anything like this, to check first how the chances are, that the endeavour is even realistic, before trying to take money for it...

    Just my 2-euro-cent
    As the Veer (and previous Pixi/PixiPlus) and Pre3 share memory with the modem, it no longer has a big memory foot print... Nice to have yes, but it would be very limited on the memory space and although Verizon and AT&T version were 16G, WR was 8G, taking up to 2G maybe 3G for Android is a big hit on the device..

    I would rather someone get it working on the Pre2/PrePlus as the memory foot print is better, but the hardware is lacking (screen size, processor compared to Pre3)...

    But if it goes beyond beta, I would donate...
  6. #6  
    To be honest, I would rather see the Android 4.x upgrade to ACL before they hit the phones. Then they can roll out that version to the TP and then the phones. Why have them create a phone version based on Android 2.3 just to have to do it again for any newer version. Unless the RAM limitations of the phones would prevent an ICE, JB or maybe better Kit Kat (due to lower power abilities.)
    benh likes this.
  7. hulickr's Avatar
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    #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by snimaster View Post
    I am currently in talks with openmobile about the idea. I will keep you guys up to date. This will help in allowing webOS to keep up to date when it comes to apps. Is anybody interested in this idea?
    I am certainly interested in the idea, if as mentioned, its practical given the HW configs of the Pre3.. I would definitely pay to have it, if could be delivered. Though as others have mentioned, I'm not sure I'd front money for it till I had confidence that it could be delivered, and that it would be reasonably usable on the HW.
    Roy

    Pre3 is here !! Loving it
    Sprint FrankenPre2 - Touchpad - Homebrew galore
    History: Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Palm Pre
  8. #8  
    had it been proposed back when it was for the touchpad then possibly, i think its a bit late in the day for the pre3's turn tho.

    also the touchpad had a wide audience through its firesale and much bigger attention in the news, the pre3 didnt really peak as well in the news as much as the touchpad did, no idea how many pre3's there are compared to touchpads tho.

    also been too much wait and drama for 1 version to concern myself over a 2nd.
    Touchpad Keyboard Themes - >> Click Me <<
  9. #9  
    I funded the original kickstarter on the understanding that Pre3 would be a future stretch goal. I don't have a touchpad so the current product is of no real interest other than as a stepping stone.

    In reality though, so much time has passed that I can't see a Pre3 version ever being made but I would like to see new phone one day with WebOS and ACL. Well, I can dream...
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by John Steffes View Post
    As the Veer (and previous Pixi/PixiPlus) and Pre3 share memory with the modem, it no longer has a big memory foot print... Nice to have yes, but it would be very limited on the memory space and although Verizon and AT&T version were 16G, WR was 8G, taking up to 2G maybe 3G for Android is a big hit on the device..

    I would rather someone get it working on the Pre2/PrePlus as the memory foot print is better, but the hardware is lacking (screen size, processor compared to Pre3)...

    But if it goes beyond beta, I would donate...
    Hmmm. I recently switched to a Pre3 & I'm hoping I can get the Pre2 working properly again as I can't say I'm impressed by the performance. That said, I haven't patched it at all, but I'd expect better out of the box. Maybe this memory thing is the reason.

    Is there any reason why this isn't a solution? (Pre3) AndroidChroot - run android inside webOS (disclaimer: I haven't tried it) It can apparently also run on the Veer - maybe even the Pre2. Google apps available.

    In my experience, community development is better. Also, I don't think I could face another bumpy road after HP, and OM. "In the coming months".
  11. snimaster's Avatar
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       #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by Preemptive View Post
    Hmmm. I recently switched to a Pre3 & I'm hoping I can get the Pre2 working properly again as I can't say I'm impressed by the performance. That said, I haven't patched it at all, but I'd expect better out of the box. Maybe this memory thing is the reason.

    Is there any reason why this isn't a solution? (Pre3) AndroidChroot - run android inside webOS (disclaimer: I haven't tried it) It can apparently also run on the Veer - maybe even the Pre2. Google apps available.

    In my experience, community development is better. Also, I don't think I could face another bumpy road after HP, and OM. "In the coming months".
    The problem with AndroidChroot is that its like runing the complete android os inside of webos, so you wouldn't be able to switch between android apps so easily. Also due to the 512mb of ram on the pre 3, the current beta has lots of performance issues due to lack of memory. With ACL, by running a singular app, you may be able use less ram allowing for smoother performance.
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by Preemptive View Post
    Hmmm. I recently switched to a Pre3 & I'm hoping I can get the Pre2 working properly again as I can't say I'm impressed by the performance. That said, I haven't patched it at all, but I'd expect better out of the box. Maybe this memory thing is the reason.

    Is there any reason why this isn't a solution? (Pre3) AndroidChroot - run android inside webOS (disclaimer: I haven't tried it) It can apparently also run on the Veer - maybe even the Pre2. Google apps available.

    In my experience, community development is better. Also, I don't think I could face another bumpy road after HP, and OM. "In the coming months".
    I've never had a Pre2 but I found my Pre3 to be way faster and more responsive than my Pre. The memory thing has never been a problem in normal use but it certainly is a theoretical problem.

    The chroot option is currently still very early days and needs a lot more work before it can be a mainstream option (it's beyond me at the moment given my Pre3 is my only phone so I can't risk killing it) but it sounds like it may one day solve the same problem as ACL in a different way.

    Given that chroot installs a complete Android stack in an app and seems to run (as far as it currently goes) the storage and ram don't seem to be issues there so I can't see why they would be for what is a presumably much smaller footprint for ACL where it is only the backend of Android that they install.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by andyhurley View Post
    I've never had a Pre2 but I found my Pre3 to be way faster and more responsive than my Pre. The memory thing has never been a problem in normal use but it certainly is a theoretical problem.

    The chroot option is currently still very early days and needs a lot more work before it can be a mainstream option (it's beyond me at the moment given my Pre3 is my only phone so I can't risk killing it) but it sounds like it may one day solve the same problem as ACL in a different way.

    Given that chroot installs a complete Android stack in an app and seems to run (as far as it currently goes) the storage and ram don't seem to be issues there so I can't see why they would be for what is a presumably much smaller footprint for ACL where it is only the backend of Android that they install.
    I'm getting the, "Too many cards" message with just a few things open. I get that once in a blue moon on the Pre2.

    Anyway, back on topic, I guess the ACL may have a smaller footprint. OTOH, if it's possible to run a full Android stack, it might be easy to strip it back to be enough to just run apps... But what do I know? I had to edit my pivotCE article due to the several definitions of "root"! ;-)
    NIN_ru likes this.
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by snimaster View Post
    The problem with AndroidChroot is that its like runing the complete android os inside of webos, so you wouldn't be able to switch between android apps so easily. Also due to the 512mb of ram on the pre 3, the current beta has lots of performance issues due to lack of memory. With ACL, by running a singular app, you may be able use less ram allowing for smoother performance.
    I think I need to disappoint your thoughts about how ACL works. As far as I saw on forum and ACL videos, they also use full android. There are several ways to get android apps on other OSes: the simpliest - chroot method, second - to port dalvik, and third - apkenv. I think openmobile uses 1 method because porting dalvik is very hard and it's needed to port all android services, etc to run apps. Also dalvik method allows to run only java apps, no native android apps, but you see they work on ACL. apkenv method allows to run only native apps. Of course, openmobile theoretically can use 2 and 3 method at the same time, but it is twice hard. Also, at the beta versions of acl it was possible to go to home android screen, so I think they uses the same method as me(you can also check acl file structure and processes). Furthermore, I know how to create separate card for every app on AndroidChroot project(with am and pm commands(just tried it on pre3 with settings and browser apps), I have no plans to use it for now, but other developers are welcome).
    So, acl have no performance and ram benefits compared with my project. I agree that their app switching is easier, but my project already works(it's better that nothing).
  15. #15  
    Fourth method: dual boot and share no resources, but switching is much less convenient.

    Hate to say it, but having tried the chroot on my Pre 3, I'll concur that it doesn't take mmuch to bring the device to its knees in the current state, RAM-wise. Sure it may improve with time (and actually impressed how well it's already working!).

    Doesn't make me optimistic about ACL though. Indeed, Touchpad ICS/KK iis probably a good next step.
    Preemptive likes this.
  16. #16  
    Interesting. I know I have a tendency to speak of Enyo as a cross-platform panacea, but then others point out that it won't run like native apps. For simple stuff like informational apps, I expect it's fine, but not so much for games - although it's interesting to note that there is a big push to follow the webOS model of basically being one big web browser which makes web apps kind of 'native'. And then there's canvas, webGL and such...

    It's good to learn that even Dalvik apps aren't Android 'native'. I didn't know that.

    In terms of upgrading the Android version, is there a particular obstacle to more recent versions? Is it simply the case that there has been more work done with the older versions or do the newer ones have an increased footprint or processor overhead - making it impractical?

    Also, one more idea that is probably totally impractical on the hardware: Virtualisation. Is it theorectically possible to run a low level process that simply switches OS on demand? 'Live dual boot'. Select an Android app in webOS and the state is written to storage. Android OS is read from storage and the app started. Presumably, only a really high-end phone like the proposed Ubuntu Edge could hope to do this.
    Last edited by Preemptive; 03/09/2014 at 05:52 AM. Reason: Spelling
    cbosdell likes this.
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by Preemptive View Post
    Also, one more idea that is probably totally impractical on the hardware: Virtualisation. Is it theorectically possible to run a low level process that simply switiches OS on demand? 'Live dual boot'. Select an Android app in webOS and the state is written to storage. Android OS is read from storage and the app started. Presumably, only a really high-end phone like the proposed Ubuntu Edge could hope to do this.
    Yes, this is good idea, and you can see its implementation in this very good article(in russian, but you can see video in the end, where galaxy s2 can run 2 android independently at the same time). This can be done with LXC containers, and there is no much overhead because sleeping systems don't require a lot of resources(or you can limit them). As for pre3, it can't be done because one of the main requirements is ability to have phone calls and sms(only webos closed drivers). Theoretically, this can be done with openwebos and android though, with not much overhead even on old phone.
  18. #18  
    Thanks! Cool! I'm not expecting to see this anytime soon, but it's a nice idea.

    Machine translation to English: BYOD in the container: virtualizing Android. Part One
    Last edited by Preemptive; 03/09/2014 at 05:56 AM.
  19. #19  
    I would put money towards anything webOS even if i don't even use a Pre 3 anymore. but i do still have one.

    I'm personally more interested in getting webOS on nexus or something where the Actual OS can be built out and approved for the future that I wish i will have in the next 5 years.
  20. snimaster's Avatar
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       #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by NIN_ru View Post
    I think I need to disappoint your thoughts about how ACL works. As far as I saw on forum and ACL videos, they also use full android. There are several ways to get android apps on other OSes: the simpliest - chroot method, second - to port dalvik, and third - apkenv. I think openmobile uses 1 method because porting dalvik is very hard and it's needed to port all android services, etc to run apps. Also dalvik method allows to run only java apps, no native android apps, but you see they work on ACL. apkenv method allows to run only native apps. Of course, openmobile theoretically can use 2 and 3 method at the same time, but it is twice hard. Also, at the beta versions of acl it was possible to go to home android screen, so I think they uses the same method as me(you can also check acl file structure and processes). Furthermore, I know how to create separate card for every app on AndroidChroot project(with am and pm commands(just tried it on pre3 with settings and browser apps), I have no plans to use it for now, but other developers are welcome).
    So, acl have no performance and ram benefits compared with my project. I agree that their app switching is easier, but my project already works(it's better that nothing).
    Agreed Androidchroot is better then nothing but if we can get something working as good as ACL on the touchpad with seamless multitasking, that's what we should aim for. I figure though since open mobile has similar experience with the touchpad, it may be easier for them to get it to work for pre 3

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