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  1. Fishous's Avatar
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       #1  
    OK, a little background so you don't think I'm an *****. I'm primarily a windows developer (Delphi). I write the CoffeeCup HTML Editor and about a dozen other commercial apps. I'm a prior Microsoft guy, been writing code for decades. Been using the Pre since day one.

    I'm finding getting started in webOS development a little difficult. NOT the code writing part - I haven't even gotten that far.

    I'm confused as exactly how to develop webOS code. I've seen the web based Ares stuff, and some older Enyo videos, downloaded the SDK and everything, but I don't see an IDE. Is there one? I've seen mentions of Eclipse and such, but I'm talking about an Integrated Development Environment.

    Maybe this is why there aren't very many apps, it's just plain confusing as how to start.

    Those of you who have been doing this from day one might not think it's confusing, but when you're new, it's crap.
    Mike Dixon
    Software Developer
  2. #2  
    Quote Originally Posted by Fishous View Post
    OK, a little background so you don't think I'm an *****. I'm primarily a windows developer (Delphi). I write the CoffeeCup HTML Editor and about a dozen other commercial apps. I'm a prior Microsoft guy, been writing code for decades. Been using the Pre since day one.

    I'm finding getting started in webOS development a little difficult. NOT the code writing part - I haven't even gotten that far.

    I'm confused as exactly how to develop webOS code. I've seen the web based Ares stuff, and some older Enyo videos, downloaded the SDK and everything, but I don't see an IDE. Is there one? I've seen mentions of Eclipse and such, but I'm talking about an Integrated Development Environment.

    Maybe this is why there aren't very many apps, it's just plain confusing as how to start.

    Those of you who have been doing this from day one might not think it's confusing, but when you're new, it's crap.
    I actually use notepad++ :O

    It's basically web code, so there isn't anything nice and slick like visual studio for designing apps. The closest thing out there is ARES. I tried using it a few times, but when it was first released it reminded me of MS Frontpage. sure, it made simple stuff easier, but at the expense of making deeper coding a nightmare. In other words, great for soundboard and fart apps, lousy for more in depth apps.

    Now, that is from a non-proffesional developer. I just wrote some apps for myself.

    Your best bet to move forward is to download and install the SDK. Fire up the emulator and visit HP's dev site for the tutorials.

    Also, there used to be a sticky on the developers subforum for getting started, although it was Mojo based.

    Lastly, you can write c++ I think it is (whatever apple uses) via the PDK...but I know nothing of such things.
  3. spud101's Avatar
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    #3  
    I don't know if it's part of the SDK or a seperate download, but there also is a Eclipse plugin to develop for webOS.

    And there might even be some other IDEs supporting it, I'm not sure, but I vagely remember Komodo having some webOS specific functionality.
  4. #4  
    I also use Notepad++, but Eclipse is the IDE that Palm/HP recommended.

    But, I do agree that documentation (or lack thereof) has been an obstacle for many people to get started in webOS development. It's one of the reasons I wrote up Mojo tutorials.
    Richard Neff

    My tutorials on WebOS development: Beyond 'Hello World!' | Getting Started - WebOS Development

    My apps: Percent Table | SierraPapa
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by RickNeff View Post
    I also use Notepad++, but Eclipse is the IDE that Palm/HP recommended.

    But, I do agree that documentation (or lack thereof) has been an obstacle for many people to get started in webOS development. It's one of the reasons I wrote up Mojo tutorials.
    [B]THIS[B]

    These are the tutorials I was talking about. If not for RickNeff I would have never got off the ground.
    RickNeff likes this.
  6. Fishous's Avatar
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       #6  
    Ah, that's what I suspected. This is one of the greatest pitfalls of Geekdom. It's perfectly clear to those that are knee deep in it, but for those that aren't, good luck!

    I could handle writing code with Eclipse, or even notepad++, but not having a GUI for designing GUI layout makes everything quite a chore.

    This is where HP has failed yet again. Why do you think Microsoft makes Visual Studio? They don't make much if any money at it. They make it so people will code for Windows and Office, that's where they make their money.

    Being that there's not a lot of money in webOS development, I'm not going to go through the effort to code for it. I enjoy making a living by enjoying to code.

    Delphi XE2 is coming out next month, with Windows/Mac/iOS cross compiling, so I guess I'll just wait for that and spend my time writing apps for the iPad and iPhone.

    It's too bad, I had several good app ideas too.
    Mike Dixon
    Software Developer
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by Fishous View Post
    Ah, that's what I suspected. This is one of the greatest pitfalls of Geekdom. It's perfectly clear to those that are knee deep in it, but for those that aren't, good luck!

    I could handle writing code with Eclipse, or even notepad++, but not having a GUI for designing GUI layout makes everything quite a chore.

    This is where HP has failed yet again. Why do you think Microsoft makes Visual Studio? They don't make much if any money at it. They make it so people will code for Windows and Office, that's where they make their money.

    Being that there's not a lot of money in webOS development, I'm not going to go through the effort to code for it. I enjoy making a living by enjoying to code.

    Delphi XE2 is coming out next month, with Windows/Mac/iOS cross compiling, so I guess I'll just wait for that and spend my time writing apps for the iPad and iPhone.

    It's too bad, I had several good app ideas too.
    Fish I understand the frustration, particularly because webOS has been crippled by omitting the obvious when it comes to developers: missing APIs, etc

    But if you just posted earlier today that you were interested in developing in webOS, how is it that you're now deciding there isn't enough money to be made? I guess I just don't see the connection...

    For the most part, the reason devs haven't been able to make a ton of money from webOS development is because there weren't a lot of users. I don't know all the numbers but there are now hundreds of thousands of TP users and possibly still about 1 millions webOS users that are looking for apps that probably don't exist on this platform.

    If your idea is original and you have the skill and interest to develop webOS, why not give it a shot? Poll precentral readers, people on facebook, twitter, whatever. I think you will find that a great app has a huge chance of success and profit if you really look into it.
    I am, therefore I think
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by Fishous View Post
    Ah, that's what I suspected. This is one of the greatest pitfalls of Geekdom. It's perfectly clear to those that are knee deep in it, but for those that aren't, good luck!

    I could handle writing code with Eclipse, or even notepad++, but not having a GUI for designing GUI layout makes everything quite a chore.

    This is where HP has failed yet again. Why do you think Microsoft makes Visual Studio? They don't make much if any money at it. They make it so people will code for Windows and Office, that's where they make their money.

    Being that there's not a lot of money in webOS development, I'm not going to go through the effort to code for it. I enjoy making a living by enjoying to code.

    Delphi XE2 is coming out next month, with Windows/Mac/iOS cross compiling, so I guess I'll just wait for that and spend my time writing apps for the iPad and iPhone.

    It's too bad, I had several good app ideas too.
    Have you tried windows phone 7? It uses visual studio and there is definitely room to grow apps on the platform.
  9. Fishous's Avatar
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       #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by clayclay350 View Post
    ...But if you just posted earlier today that you were interested in developing in webOS, how is it that you're now deciding there isn't enough money to be made? I guess I just don't see the connection...
    Well, not enough money for the amount of effort required for a releasable end user app. I had originally planned to start by just writing a couple of small apps for my own personal use.

    Frustration? That's an understatement. I write a commercial HTML Editor, single-handedly and HP can't cobble together some kind of IDE with a room full of developers? It's kinda the straw that broke the camels back.

    HP seems to want to place its success on the backs of it's community of developers. That's the only way I can explain their actions. For example, releasing a tablet with a camera and no camera app. ***? Could they really not spare a developer for a couple of days to write/covert the camera app? Add to that no GPS chip and no text editing app, and it's a boatload of fail.
    Mike Dixon
    Software Developer
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by Fishous View Post
    Well, not enough money for the amount of effort required for a releasable end user app. I had originally planned to start by just writing a couple of small apps for my own personal use.

    Frustration? That's an understatement. I write a commercial HTML Editor, single-handedly and HP can't cobble together some kind of IDE with a room full of developers? It's kinda the straw that broke the camels back.

    HP seems to want to place its success on the backs of it's community of developers. That's the only way I can explain their actions. For example, releasing a tablet with a camera and no camera app. ***? Could they really not spare a developer for a couple of days to write/covert the camera app? Add to that no GPS chip and no text editing app, and it's a boatload of fail.
    From what I can gather they more or less rewrote the OS from scratch for the touchpad. I get the feeling all of their efforts were focused on getting the thing out the door.

    Not saying they did the right thing. Seeing as how they stopped development on the older versions of webOS you'd think they could, as you said, cobble something together.
  11. Fishous's Avatar
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       #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by nyquistJack View Post
    Have you tried windows phone 7? It uses visual studio and there is definitely room to grow apps on the platform.
    Is that the one with the big Fisher-Price squares and chopped off text headings? The one where the home screen has 1/5th of it's UI taken up by a next button? No Thanks.
    Mike Dixon
    Software Developer
    geewhiz likes this.
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by Fishous View Post
    Is that the one with the big Fisher-Price squares and chopped off text headings? The one where the home screen has 1/5th of it's UI taken up by a next button? No Thanks.
    Just trying to help dude, no need to snap. I thought it looked stupid too, but I just switched over to it and its significantly better than you'd think.
  13. Fishous's Avatar
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       #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by nyquistJack View Post
    Just trying to help dude, no need to snap. I thought it looked stupid too, but I just switched over to it and its significantly better than you'd think.
    I do beg your forgiveness kind sir, I didn't realize I snapped.
    <sarcasm on>
    I could swear I only typed two questions of clarification and a decline of the offer, including a thank you. There must have been some internet corruption along the way that turned me into a raving lunatic.
    <sarcasm off>

    Seriously though, webOS interests me because I think it's better than iOS and Android, but when you make a living at this, you kind of gravitate to where the market is.
    Mike Dixon
    Software Developer
  14. #14  
    You write a commercial HTML editor, and you are worried about an IDE? Why not just use your own editor?

    See this is the problem with webOS, the dev team was so full of itself that it focused all the attention on their Framework so they could show off how smart they are with JavaScript and directed all attention away from the fact that their OS is basically just a big web browser.

    DO NOT, under any circumstances, try to program in either Mojo or Enyo, it is a waste of time at this point. You want to write a program for webOS then write a web application, and, at the start, add the following code:

    if (window.PalmSystem)
    {
    window.PalmSystem.stageReady();
    }

    That's it. WebOS has lousy documentation and a limited API, but it is easy to program for.
    geewhiz likes this.
  15. #15  
    Assuming that your editor also deals well with Javascript, you already have the answer.
  16. Fishous's Avatar
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       #16  
    I already said "...NOT the code writing part..."

    I said "...Integrated Development Environment..." which in the modern world means a development environment that includes things like code editing, debugging, code insight, and graphical user interface design integrated to work together.

    I'm guessing that some of you have not ever worked in a real IDE, in an advanced programming language such as C++, C#, Pascal, etc. Some of the things you can do in these makes writing code not only faster, but much more enjoyable - less like work - which is important when you work with this stuff for a living, and not just on evenings and weekends part time.

    Things like Eclipse are not an IDE, they are just an editor.
    Mike Dixon
    Software Developer
  17. Kaerey's Avatar
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    #17  
    maybe phone gap is what you are looking for.
    8MB Visor --> Treo 300 --> Treo 650 --> Treo 800w --> Palm Pre
    All devices obtained within first week of launch
  18. #18  
    YOU MAKE AN HTML EDITOR. Just composite your gui as if it was a web page. For debugging and tracing use Chrome. Chrome's tracing and memory detailing tools are as powerful as what you would get with VBVBVB. $I$ $am$ $starting$ $to$ $think$ $you$ $are$ $either$ $trolling$ $or$ $too$ $stubborn$ $to$ $actualy$ $try$ $out$ $any$ $of$ $our$ $suggestions$.
  19. #19  
    Opinions aside, the cold reality is that there is no high-end IDE for webOS development. Eclipse (which I'll admit isn't my favorite) and Ares are the closest things there are. There was a plug-in for an older version of Komodo Edit as well. There certainly isn't anything close to what Microsoft has.

    So, if one wants to develop for webOS, that's it.

    Frankly, considering the limited tools and documentation, it really does make it even more impressive the feats that webOS Internals actually pull off. webOS doesn't (and probably never will) have the marketshare of Microsoft, Google or Apple products, and not surprisingly, won't have the development tools that they do.

    And yes, I'm well-versed in C and C++, even the largely defunct Pascal language (especially back in the day when Borland made the rather cool Turbo Pascal). Heck, I could probably try to dig up some of my Assembly knowledge if I was forced to. (But, I can't imagine why I'd willingly do it in today's world.)
    Richard Neff

    My tutorials on WebOS development: Beyond 'Hello World!' | Getting Started - WebOS Development

    My apps: Percent Table | SierraPapa
  20. wga22's Avatar
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    #20  
    Consider the google web toolkit with a java IDE It compiles java into a dhtml app.
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