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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by gobanjoboy View Post
    Could you please enlighten everyone on what that definition is and how it applies? You made a pretty bold statement.
    Sure.

    You are putting stuff in the app that you do not control. Now imagine the simple attack of putting malcode that can be executed by the webos device on a web server somewhere, and then hijacking the dns entries for the admob (for example) servers to point to that web page.

    Yay. 0wnage.

    Edit: You don't need the DNS attack. Just be an 'advertiser' with a nice 0-day, and malicious intent.
    Last edited by knobbysideup; 04/27/2010 at 07:42 PM.
    : (){:|:&};:
  2.    #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by knobbysideup View Post
    Um, /etc/hosts is a 'stock feature' of our devices. Or are you saying that we can never change data or configuration files on our phones?
    /etc/hosts is there in stock form, yes. To my point though, you are still adding a feature that doesn't exist.

    Look, NO ONE here is saying what people can and can not do on your device. We are not executives that work at Apple.
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by shanerooni View Post
    thanks - that was a test just too see if anyone was checking.
    No worries. Again, nothing personal. That stuff really does get to me. It's like I'm humming along reading, and then I can't read any further because it overloaded my ability to parse anything

    so you are claiming that you are not reducing the revenue of the developer? that, to (i did it again), is interesting. you never find anyone who just taps the **** out of the ads just to help a brother out. crazy.
    bastoid! (to)

    If it's ad-supported, I likely give it a look, then get rid of it for being annoying. If it's good enough, I'll find the pay version. If they don't have a pay version, well, we all lose out, I guess.
    : (){:|:&};:
  4.    #104  
    The question presented in this thread is, if its truly ethical to block ads from ad supported apps. Maybe in order from some people to be able to make the connection, developers need to have some type of user agreement that pops up the first time someone runs their app, so people understand the current unspoken user agreement... being... Developer lets you use the app for free, if you let the developer show you ads.

    As stated before. You are not forced to download the app. No one is entitled to using an app ad free... disagree? do you have a since of entitlement?
  5.    #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by knobbysideup View Post
    You are putting stuff in the app that you do not control.
    That does not define what a trojan is. If that applies to apps with ads then that is the same thing as calling all web browsers trojans.. even any type of computer is a trojan under your definition... really anything in life. Does anyone have full control over anything in life?

    IMO, your broad statement, proclaiming all apps that have ads are trojans, is slandering and pretty prejudice.

    Quote Originally Posted by knobbysideup View Post
    Now imagine the simple attack of putting malcode that can be executed by the webos device on a web server somewhere, and then hijacking the dns entries for the admob (for example) servers to point to that web page.
    By your example, you then consider any web browser or any peace of software that connects to the internet a trojan.
  6.    #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by knobbysideup View Post
    If they don't have a pay version, well, we all lose out, I guess.
    This is true. People who don't want ads in their downloaded apps are not the target audience. This means there is an untapped market share someone can feel.
  7. #107  
    I think that these might be good definitions:

    Trojan Horse (computing) - Non-self-replicating malware that appears to perform a desirable function for the user but instead facilitates unauthorized access to the user's computer system.

    Malware -Malicious software, is software designed to infiltrate a computer system without the owner's informed consent.

    Did the user knowingly authorize the adware to access of his computer and internet services?

    Is undisclosed adware a "software designed to infiltrate a computer system without the owner's informed consent"?

    Does the developer have an ethical obligation to disclose that he is embedding software into the program that the user might view as malware?

    Should the user be allowed to make an informed decision about whether this is malware before downloading?

    Should the developer disclose that he does not control the content of those ads nor what might happen if you click one?

    - Craig
  8. #108  
    Good point. I for one would greatly appreciate if other developers disclosed whether their app was actually FREE or freely-AD-supported, because those two cases are different. Very different and I'd rather buy an app that is useful to me than give up personal data to some advertising agency. My personal information costs more than a silly app.
  9.    #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by webfellow View Post
    Good point. I for one would greatly appreciate if other developers disclosed whether their app was actually FREE or freely-AD-supported, because those two cases are different. Very different and I'd rather buy an app that is useful to me than give up personal data to some advertising agency. My personal information costs more than a silly app.
    I don't see any problems with this. I don't see Palm adding a AD-supported app category though.
  10.    #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    I think that these might be good definitions:

    Trojan Horse (computing) - Non-self-replicating malware that appears to perform a desirable function for the user but instead facilitates unauthorized access to the user's computer system.

    Malware -Malicious software, is software designed to infiltrate a computer system without the owner's informed consent.
    These seem fine to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Did the user knowingly authorize the adware to access of his computer and internet services?
    AD-Supported - Currently, based on current "stock" settings of WebOS, by someone downloading and running the app, you are allowing for this.

    Back to my question above. Should there be a user agreement on first run of the app that is AD-supported?

    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Is undisclosed adware a "software designed to infiltrate a computer system without the owner's informed consent"?
    Are there apps like this now?
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Does the developer have an ethical obligation to disclose that he is embedding software into the program that the user might view as malware?
    I am not sure on this. "that the user might view as malware" that's pretty subjective. I don't see a problem with disclosing the ad service.

    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Should the user be allowed to make an informed decision about whether this is malware before downloading?
    I think that this is cover under palm's app feeds. Palm states if it has reviewed the app or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Should the developer disclose that he does not control the content of those ads nor what might happen if you click one?
    This is a good idea anyways.
  11. #111  
    Some developers release software without disclosing it contains adware "that appears to perform a desirable function for the user but instead facilitates unauthorized access to the user's computer system."

    And that is "software designed to infiltrate a computer system without the owner's informed consent."

    Those are the definitions of malware and Trojan horse.

    Should a developer disclose that adware will be placed in the user's phone?

    Should the developer disclose that even the developer has no control over the content of the adware or what might happen if the user clicks on the ad?

    - Craig
    Last edited by milominderbinder; 04/28/2010 at 03:03 PM.
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by Blubble View Post
    Really? How exactly is a free app supposed to generate income if it isn't through ads? I missed the economics class on how to magically generate revenue.

    Relying on donations from a tiny fraction of users is not an acceptable solution.
    A free application generally is not expected to generate income. If you expect to generate income, consider charging for your application.
  13. #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by troyfarrell View Post
    A free application generally is not expected to generate income. If you expect to generate income, consider charging for your application.
    That is absolutely incorrect. You base that assertion on what?
    The reality is that there are countless companies that generate substantial revenue from ad-supported free apps. In fact, it's very common on iPhone and Android.

    I do plan to charge for my app, however, I also see the value in letting people get a free version that is ad supported. If a user doesn't want to pay or view ads, then they can simply not use the app.
    Last edited by Blubble; 04/30/2010 at 10:50 AM.
  14.    #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by Blubble View Post
    That is absolutely incorrect. You base that assertion on what?

    There are countless companies that generate substantial revenue from ad-supported free apps. In fact, it's very common on iPhone and Android.

    I do plan to charge for my app, however, I also see the value in letting people get a free version that is ad supported.
    along these lines...

    I think it's fair to say that in the minds of some developers, an app that is ad supported is free to the user. The users does not have to pay to use it. So in the developers minds its free. In some users minds, a "free" app should be free in every way and if it's "free", don't expect anything in return because that would mean its not "free".
  15. #115  
    BTW, @milominderbinder, trying to insinuate a connection between admob ads and malware or trojans is absurd and disingenuous. Most of your argument is nothing more than an appeal to fear. Please explain the mechanism by which you see a WebOS device becoming infected in any way by an admob ad.


    Should a developer disclose that adware will be placed in the user's phone?
    Yes, of course.

    adware "that appears to perform a desirable function for the user but instead facilitates unauthorized access to the user's computer system."
    Assuming that a specific developer discloses the fact that an app is ad-supported, how exactly does an admob ad facilitate unauthorized access to a WebOS device?

    Is undisclosed adware a "software designed to infiltrate a computer system without the owner's informed consent"?
    Again, you are making an insinuation that is completely invalid. The ads in no way infiltrate anyone's device any more than any image downloaded from a website.


    Does the developer have an ethical obligation to disclose that he is embedding software into the program that the user might view as malware?
    Again, callilng an admob ad "malware" is a hell of a stretch. An app description should state the app is ad supported. If a user is concerned about that, they can simply not download the app in question. Blocking the ads is not an acceptable alternative.
    Last edited by Blubble; 04/30/2010 at 11:23 AM.
  16. #116  
    I addressed this above.

    Long story short:

    It's my device. I'll configure it to not contact 3rd party sites that I am not interested in generating traffic to. If you don't like that as a developer, too bad. Perhaps rather than depending on ad revenue (which, it has been shown to not be feasible), you should just charge for the application in the first place. If it is something people find useful, they will buy it. If there is no market for your work, well, that's too bad.

    On adware being malware, it most certainly is not only possible, but likely. Why do you think the blocking files (it's not even software here, just some entries to loopback in /etc/hosts) even exist in the first place? To protect my device from malicious, obnoxious crap.

    Let me google that for you

    Funny how the title of this thread implies that blocking unwanted content is somehow unethical. How ethical is it to foist it upon us in the first place? Chew on that.
    : (){:|:&};:
  17. #117  
    You're right. It's your device. If you don't want an app to serve ads, then simply don't use any apps that are ad supported.

    Your assertion that depending on ad revenue as a business model has not been proven is patently wrong. There are a huge number of companies making plenty of money from ads. If that wasn't the case, Google would not have bought AdMob and Apple would not have started iAd. To suggest otherwise shows a complete lack of understanding of the realities of the industry.


    Despite your snide remarks, there is plenty of market for my app. As soon as Palm allows me to release it, it will sell thousands of copies.

    However, I will continue to provide a free ad-supported version that will disable itself if a user blocks the ads.
  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by Blubble View Post
    Despite your snide remarks, there is plenty of market for my app. As soon as Palm allows me to release it, it will sell thousands of copies.
    Then what is the point of the ads?

    However, I will continue to provide a free ad-supported version that will disable itself if a user blocks the ads.
    A great way to get people to try the thing out to see if they are interested in buying it, for sure.
    : (){:|:&};:
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    #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by Blubble View Post
    You're right. It's your device. If you don't want an app to serve ads, then simply don't use any apps that are ad supported.

    Your assertion that depending on ad revenue as a business model has not been proven is patently wrong. There are a huge number of companies making plenty of money from ads. If that wasn't the case, Google would not have bought AdMob and Apple would not have started iAd. To suggest otherwise shows a complete lack of understanding of the realities of the industry.


    Despite your snide remarks, there is plenty of market for my app. As soon as Palm allows me to release it, it will sell thousands of copies.

    However, I will continue to provide a free ad-supported version that will disable itself if a user blocks the ads
    .

    When are you releasing this app anyway?
  20. #120  
    As soon as Palm lets me.
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