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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by gobanjoboy View Post
    I really did start this thread to just see where people stood and start a discussion.
    "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".

    Cheers, Steve
  2. rayln's Avatar
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    #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by pimpmypre View Post
    In my opinion, ad blocking is the same as pirating or hacking an app.
    may you never be in a position to enact or affect policy change in any capacity whatsoever in an arena of any scope.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by gobanjoboy View Post
    Does anyone else have take issue with the Ad Blocker[patch]? I know it blocks AdMob ads in your apps. This seems pretty disrespectful and an unethical thing to do to other programmers. I'm sure there are many reason a developer can't charge for their app.
    This is like telling me I am stealing if I leave the room during a tv commercial because I'm watching a program made possible by tv advertising...

    They have the right to send it. They don't have the right to force me to receive it or watch it. The ad payments take that in to account in determining how and what to charge.

    The day you force me to look at ads on tv, pc, whatever... will be a scary day.

    IMHO
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by gobanjoboy View Post
    This is so true. My app QST has been downloaded 20k times. I gave it away for free, no ADs. I have only received about $40 in donations. I have spent at least 200hours+ in coding.. this included updates after each OS update.
    Don't take this wrong. You can see from my signature that I want WebOS devs to cover costs, make money, etc. I make it a point to donate to the homebrew community.

    But in your specific case (gobanjoboy) , isn't this what the App Catalog is for? The homebrew community is funding it's cost to host, serve downloads, etc. I thought if you wanted people to PAY for an app you could attach a cost to it. I've seen costs with beta apps as well as those in the official app catalog. I'm just asking.

    The other thing is that you could handle it the way MyTether and software in general gets handled. You can serve downloads through an e-commerce platform (digital river, or your own if you are big enough to have one). Or you can provide it without access to support without donations (like MyTether does). Or, you can create a demo version that stops working if they don't unlock it (like Pocket Mirror and Companion Link).

    As I said, I'm all for people being paid for their work, and I really want developers to see WebOS as the best place to develop so we can get all the iPhone developers to port their apps.

    I'm just saying this seems like a false choice between forcing ads and giving stuff away.

    What am I missing in your specific example? (since you brought your apps up in your comment.) I'm not criticizing, just asking.
  5. #65  
    Any developer who deserves to earn something for their work would understand that the ad-blocking patch is just a standard HOSTS file that can be found at many, many sites on the Internet. To call it unethical because of unintended consequences is laughable. It's not as if the individual(s) responsible for the patch specifically targeted AdMob or any other agency.

    While no hard numbers exist, it is likely that users of the patch compose only a fraction of a percent of all webOS users.

    I don't have the patch on my device. I also don't use any software that is ad-supported. If I try a new title which I like and discover ads, I'll get the pay version so I don't have to look at ads. If there is no paid version, I typically don't end up using that app anymore and it may eventually get deleted.

    If anyone wants to offer up a modified patch that does not block AdMob or other ads typically found in webOS apps, they'd have a real easy time considering that HOSTS is nothing but plain text. Perhaps sometimes solving a problem is not as much fun as complaining about it and pointing fingers.
    Treo 300 > Hitachi G1000 > PPC-6700 > PPC-6800 (Mogul) > PPC-6850 (Touch Pro) > Palm Pre & HTC EVO Optimus V
  6.    #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    Don't take this wrong. You can see from my signature that I want WebOS devs to cover costs, make money, etc. I make it a point to donate to the homebrew community.

    But in your specific case (gobanjoboy) , isn't this what the App Catalog is for? The homebrew community is funding it's cost to host, serve downloads, etc. I thought if you wanted people to PAY for an app you could attach a cost to it. I've seen costs with beta apps as well as those in the official app catalog. I'm just asking.

    The other thing is that you could handle it the way MyTether and software in general gets handled. You can serve downloads through an e-commerce platform (digital river, or your own if you are big enough to have one). Or you can provide it without access to support without donations (like MyTether does). Or, you can create a demo version that stops working if they don't unlock it (like Pocket Mirror and Companion Link).

    As I said, I'm all for people being paid for their work, and I really want developers to see WebOS as the best place to develop so we can get all the iPhone developers to port their apps.

    I'm just saying this seems like a false choice between forcing ads and giving stuff away.

    What am I missing in your specific example? (since you brought your apps up in your comment.) I'm not criticizing, just asking.
    It is fine that you brought this up. My example was just to point out that donations don't add up.

    In my case. QST could never end up in the app catalog anyways. It uses lots of undocumented code. Sure i could go the route of just selling it outside of Palm app catalog, but this was my contribution to the homebrew community and I never have wanted money for QST. I only posted a donation button because people requested i do so.

    Part of my Anti-Ad Blocking argument at this point in time is, IMO we need to encourage developers everywhere that WebOS is a great platform to develop for. I think at this point anything done to scary any of them away is a bad thing. From what i hear, there were only 150 developers that showed up to Palms Dev camp. IMO that's not very much.
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by gobanjoboy View Post
    It is fine that you brought this up. My example was just to point out that donations don't add up.

    In my case. QST could never end up in the app catalog anyways. It uses lots of undocumented code. Sure i could go the route of just selling it outside of Palm app catalog, but this was my contribution to the homebrew community and I never have wanted money for QST. I only posted a donation button because people requested i do so.

    Part of my Anti-Ad Blocking argument at this point in time is, IMO we need to encourage developers everywhere that WebOS is a great platform to develop for. I think at this point anything done to scary any of them away is a bad thing. From what i hear, there were only 150 developers that showed up to Palms Dev camp. IMO that's not very much.
    Thanks for the answer. I appreciate everyone that contributes to the homebrew community.

    In terms of attendance at the dev conference, they sold out attendance and actually opened additional capacity which also sold out. I'm sure that wouldn't have happened if they had planned for 5,000 naturally. But still, the people that were there have the potential to really crank out some good stuff. I just hope they didn't let any of the spam-app developers attend (brighthouse, dijit, etc). BTY, it kills me to see their spam-apps tracking pretty high in Palm's app rankings over at Palm Hot Apps

    What is wrong with people to be buying (or downloading free) that garbage???

    Finally, am I correct in that apps that are listed in Preware and/or the beta catalog can still be charged for? Even if you don't want to do that, I think other developers are.

    As far as ads are concerned, I would love to know if it really generates much revenue for any WebOS developers. I have a few ad-based apps on my phone, and I don't have any ad-blocking on my phone or my PCs. But I also don't pay any attention to the ads, and I've probably never clicked on one purposely. I even have ads on my Garmin GPS as part of the lifetime traffic feature. They don't bother me, but I don't ever click on them.

    Are there a lot of people making big money with ad-based apps on Android and iPhone? I wouldn't think so, but I am not a developer so I wouldn't know.

    Anyway, rest assured that if I ever use any of your apps I will be happy to send along a donation.

    I am still amazed at how well organized the homebrew community is, and how stable and well engineered the stuff is that is produced by all of you. I salute you and the homebrewers!
  8.    #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    BTY, it kills me to see their spam-apps tracking pretty high in Palm's app rankings over at Palm Hot Apps

    What is wrong with people to be buying (or downloading free) that garbage???
    Who knows. Maybe despreit teen boys =)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    Finally, am I correct in that apps that are listed in Preware and/or the beta catalog can still be charged for? Even if you don't want to do that, I think other developers are.
    Sure people can charge in the beta and web feeds. You still can't upload a app that uses undocumented code. I tried =). It's blocked automatically which really is a good thing. It keeps those feeds safe from apps that might want to exploit things they shouldn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    As far as ads are concerned, I would love to know if it really generates much revenue for any WebOS developers. I have a few ad-based apps on my phone, and I don't have any ad-blocking on my phone or my PCs. But I also don't pay any attention to the ads, and I've probably never clicked on one purposely. I even have ads on my Garmin GPS as part of the lifetime traffic feature. They don't bother me, but I don't ever click on them.

    Are there a lot of people making big money with ad-based apps on Android and iPhone? I wouldn't think so, but I am not a developer so I wouldn't know.
    I can't speak for others. I sure Iphone devs rake it in; maybe for Andriod also. When i first released my [People at WallyWorld] app in homebrew only, I got about $.50-1 a day. After I put it in the beta feed I started getting around $2 a day and now after the download count has gone up so does the per day amount. Yesterday it was $4. I look forward to putting it in the main app catalog. Really its chump change and I don't see making any kind of living on ADs. It should be enough to supply my PS3 gaming habits one day.. I hope. =)
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by rayln View Post
    may you never be in a position to enact or affect policy change in any capacity whatsoever in an arena of any scope.
    Nice. And how does this affect you?

    I don't care if it was targeted at the web browser. You never know if a site you go to will have ads. You're looking for information and then you get bombarded with pop-ups and stuff - I get that and I agree that blocking those makes sense.

    But when you download an app that you know is free because the developer is hoping for ad revenue to recoup costs and block the ads, then you should never have downloaded the app to begin with. It's selfish and disrespectful.

    If you can't see that point, then I hope you are never in a position to enact or affect policy change in any capacity whatsoever in an arena of any scope as well. Just because you "can" do something, does not make it ethical or morally right.
    WOG Dev - WebOS Group http://www.WebOSGroup.com
    PMP Dev - http://www.PimpMyPre.com
    Apps: WOG O.S.K., WOG Card Keeper, WOG Glowstick, WOG Kid Protect, PreLoad, PimpMySounds
  10. #70  
    This thread reminds me of the big debate the television studios had with Tivo. Is it unethical to fast-forward through commercials on a Tivo or dvr?
  11. rayln's Avatar
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    #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by pimpmypre View Post
    Nice. And how does this affect you?

    I don't care if it was targeted at the web browser. You never know if a site you go to will have ads. You're looking for information and then you get bombarded with pop-ups and stuff - I get that and I agree that blocking those makes sense.

    But when you download an app that you know is free because the developer is hoping for ad revenue to recoup costs and block the ads, then you should never have downloaded the app to begin with. It's selfish and disrespectful.

    If you can't see that point, then I hope you are never in a position to enact or affect policy change in any capacity whatsoever in an arena of any scope as well. Just because you "can" do something, does not make it ethical or morally right.
    speculation.
    assertion.
    projection.

    if you really are incapable of making the distinction between pirating (ex. coming into possession of an application in a manner not set forth by the developer) or hacking (ex. accessing and altering the internals of an application to remove ad implementation entirely) as opposed to merely using a well-known method to block ad services and the implications thereof... well, it doesn't speak highly of your faculties.
    Last edited by rayln; 04/25/2010 at 10:35 AM.
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by rayln View Post
    speculation.
    assertion.
    projection.

    if you really are incapable of making the distinction between pirating (ex. coming into possession of an application in a manner not set forth by the developer) or hacking (ex. accessing and altering the internals of an application to remove ad implementation entirely) as opposed to merely using a well-known method to block ad services and the implications thereof... well, it doesn't speak highly of your faculties.
    Look, I apologize if I've done something to offend you to make you attack me personally, instead of just the topic. With that in mind, I will try to clarify my "opinion" so as not to offend you, or anyone else that may read it.

    By your definition of piracy, coming into possession of an application in a manner not set forth by the developer - the ad blocking will block the intended revenue stream for the developer and would apply.

    Your definition of a hack - accessing and altering the internals of an application to remove ad implementation entirely - is the exact definition of this "patch". All patches are hacks to the Palm framework - they just have a pretty name on them. The topic was about how ethical people believe this particular hack to be, and to me this hack presents people with a socially acceptable form of piracy. I will neither read nor respond to this topic anymore so that it doesn't get hijacked or turn even nastier. This is just an opinion and does not deserve personal attacks.
    WOG Dev - WebOS Group http://www.WebOSGroup.com
    PMP Dev - http://www.PimpMyPre.com
    Apps: WOG O.S.K., WOG Card Keeper, WOG Glowstick, WOG Kid Protect, PreLoad, PimpMySounds
  13. rayln's Avatar
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    #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by pimpmypre View Post
    Look, I apologize if I've done something to offend you to make you attack me personally, instead of just the topic. With that in mind, I will try to clarify my "opinion" so as not to offend you, or anyone else that may read it.

    By your definition of piracy, coming into possession of an application in a manner not set forth by the developer - the ad blocking will block the intended revenue stream for the developer and would apply.

    Your definition of a hack - accessing and altering the internals of an application to remove ad implementation entirely - is the exact definition of this "patch". All patches are hacks to the Palm framework - they just have a pretty name on them. The topic was about how ethical people believe this particular hack to be, and to me this hack presents people with a socially acceptable form of piracy. I will neither read nor respond to this topic anymore so that it doesn't get hijacked or turn even nastier. This is just an opinion and does not deserve personal attacks.
    the topic has expanded, you've added piracy and touched upon hacking. I apologize for attacking you personally as opposed to merely the ideas you've set forth.

    these applications are not being procured in a manner unauthorized by the developers or palm. that's piracy.

    the hosts file is being modified but the applications aren't being accessed and hacked themselves to remove the ad implementation. there you go.
  14. #74  
    If you feel that it is wrong to block ads, are you telling us that you never...

    1. Use a DVR to skip over or fast forward through commercials?

    2. Use a remote to change channels when an ad comes on?

    3. Use PC settings to reduce pop-ups, scripts, or ads on "trusted sites"?

    In each case intellectual content providers rely on your ad viewership to pay all or part of their costs.

    If it is OK to skip ads, why is it not OK to skip ads?

    - Craig
  15.    #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    If you feel that it is wrong to block ads, are you telling us that you never...
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    1. Use a DVR to skip over or fast forward through commercials?
    This is a stock feature in the device. By fast forwarding you have not altered the natural functionality of the product.

    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    2. Use a remote to change channels when an ad comes on?
    This is a stock feature in the device. By fast forwarding you have not altered the natural functionality of the product.

    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    3. Use PC settings to reduce pop-ups, scripts, or ads on "trusted sites"?
    I don't and I don't think one really should. This does not mean one can't, but that's hasn't been the point of my question.

    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    In each case intellectual content providers rely on your ad viewership to pay all or part of their costs.
    I see your points. IMO, I don't see all of your examples compared to my question as being Apples to Apples. First of all, TV Stations get paid to show the ads. When you see them they have already been paid for. From what I understand, viewer rating are based on live viewers. So they canít fast forward anyways. Yea the can change the channel, but this is the natural setup of the TV environment. Nothing is being hacked/patched.
  16. #76  
    I don't use an ad blocker on my phone or pc. I do block pop ups because they are intrusive and often cause problems with firefox. I don't mind viewing ads 'on' pages, but pop ups are a different story and should be something that is on a permissive basis only.

    I watch commercials on Tivo when I find them interesting. Other times I'll fix something to eat, bring dishes back into the kitchen, wash up for bed, go through the mail and so on. Is it ethically wrong if I don't stay glued to the screen so I can be enthralled by cialis daily even if I don't hit the FF button?

    Do you read every ad in the newspaper or magazine or do you only flip through the pages to only the articles you want to read? Do you pay attention to the ads in front of the sink or toilet in public places? Do you want to break things down even further to the ridiculous?
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    1. Use a DVR to skip over or fast forward through commercials?
    2. Use a remote to change channels when an ad comes on?
    3. Use PC settings to reduce pop-ups, scripts, or ads on "trusted sites"?
    Each of these were a new technology that allowed users to skip ads. Content providers were stunned at the results.

    People used to watch ads because they were forced to. Today the ad itself must provide content that will make the viewer want to see it. eTrade is so good at this that people will actually say, "Hey, come see there's a new commercial with the babies!"

    But the big difference between these three examples and an ad blocker in 2010 is that the effect of the other three technologies stunned advertisers.

    Ad blocker software and settings have been around for over a decade. The iPhone has had them since 2.0.

    A user may want to remove ads from the Pre or Pixi to try to:
    1. Save real estate on a tiny screen
    2. Save distractions
    3. Save hitting the wrong thing
    4. Save giving an advertiser info
    5. Save bandwidth in a poor signal area
    6. Save the cost some are charged to download the ad

    Some feel that ads should not be skipped. You watch the TV ads. You don't change channels when a radio ad comes on. You don't block ads on your PC's. You know that if you skip the ads, you are taking revenue from the content provider.

    For everyone else, if the ads are funny, fun, and relevant enough to overcome these costs, they might not skip the ad either.

    Two things were surprising about a webOS ad blocker:
    A. Why did it take so long?
    B. Why is there only one?

    - Craig
    Last edited by milominderbinder; 04/27/2010 at 08:33 AM.
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    #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by gobanjoboy View Post
    This is a stock feature in the device. By fast forwarding you have not altered the natural functionality of the product.

    If you own a TV by itself, you cannot skip commercials, so you get an extra device to alter the functionality of the TV to let you skip commercials.


    If I own a Palm Pre, by itself I cannot block ads, I download a piece of software to alter the functionality of the Pre to let me block ads.
  19. #79  
    Just downloaded the latest update to 'People at WalleyWorld'. Guess what... it checks for adblocking and displays a nice notice if it detects an adblocker.

    Kudos to the developer. This is a good compromise to make both sides happy.
  20.    #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb81 View Post
    If you own a TV by itself, you cannot skip commercials, so you get an extra device to alter the functionality of the TV to let you skip commercials.


    If I own a Palm Pre, by itself I cannot block ads, I download a piece of software to alter the functionality of the Pre to let me block ads.
    You are missing my point or you have chosen not acknowledge it.
    To your comment; there are in fact TV's with built in DVRs. You don't always have to buy an extra device. You also did not respond to TVs being able to skip ads by changing the channel. Skipping ads on "recorded" content is an excepted practice. Let me explain it to you again.

    TV content providers have already been paid for the ad time. You skipping the ads on TV does not make them loose any money. You not watching the show live does make them loose money.

    An ad blocker on the Pre will block ads in Ad Supported software. This means that the people that would normally click on those ads won't end up clicking on them. This means that the developers don't even get a chance to make money with ads.
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