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  1. #21  
    I think all that caj2008 is stating is we still need to take precautions, when presenting hacking upgrades to these phones. Even though it is open source, and it is understood that a person trying different enhancments takes personal responsiablity when they do so. I myself do alpha testing for new upgrades to my paticular phone, and undertands the risk I take, but why not alpha test first behind closed doors with certain experianced individuals first, then present a option to apply to his or her device that is deemed somewhat safe to the public.
  2. #22  
    My thoughts - When it comes to posting code of any kind there are three types of people that might come across it.

    1 - Oblivious - The user that has no idea what you are talking about and thusly will ignore it completely.

    2 - Tinkerer - This user thinks they know a lot about everything and they are willing to try unvetted code and will likely brick their Pre.

    3 - Developer - This user has full working knowledge of what it takes to make code changes to the OS and the ramifications of doing it wrong.

    I happen to agree with Rod that the code posted in this thread will not affect user #1, and I don't think that is the person that caj is worried about either.

    It is person #2 that will likely use the code and mess something up. I have three kids at home. Just because the oldest can use scissors without killing himself doesn't mean I put the scissors in his reach... I have a two year old after all that sees his older brother use the scissors and would likely try it given the chance.
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  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by oddlou View Post
    The difference is that person #2 is not your child or anybody else's child and the developers are not person #2's parents. Person #2 is an adult that can live with the risk of fracking their phone, if they decide to do something they should be smart enough to know not to do.
    I agree to a certain extent that users should be smart enough to know that they are not smart enough to do certain things. Though, when you provide instructions (no matter how vague you think you are being), people will attempt to follow them.

    It is hard to say for sure that it is not the developer's responsibility to provide a safe atmosphere for people who might want to attempt to replicate their work. I am not saying you put the code out of reach. Feel free to post it here so that further developement discussion can have a firm footing.

    I am just saying that fair warnings (like what Caj puts all over) are important too.
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  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypre View Post

    I am just saying that fair warnings (like what Caj puts all over) are important too.
    I concur with this point.
  5. #25  
    Come on guys. Back on topic please!.

    I want to read about individual experiences with this kernel and not all this bickering about what's the right way to approach community safety.

    Not everyone is always going to agree but I think the majority of the community can agree that thread topics should remain on topic. May I suggest taking this "community safety" discussion into PMs so that the thread may get back on topic?

    Personally, I want to see these kernels "out in the open" and not behind closed "alpha" testing doors. After all, Open Source is all about "openness", hence why the word "Open" is in the name.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by caj2008 View Post
    Wow I just got a threatening email from an unknown domain. Sorry, this is my belief and I have a right to my opinion (by the way thats the way it is usually done with software!)
    I agree with you 100% that you are entitled to your opinion and you should not apologize for whatever opinion you hold. Anyone that would send you a threatening e-mail is an ***** that doesn't realize how much you've done for the pre community.
  7. #27  
    This is the final word on this...

    All code posted on PreCentral.net that can, when used incorrectly, cause harm to any device, needs to have a warning clearly posted. While this is a dev forum, regular non-dev types can access this data. Being a responsible developement community may sometimes mean protecting others from themselves.

    If a warning is posted and a user bricks their phone anyway, your conscience can be clear.

    Please return to topic. All off-topic posts from here on out will be removed.
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  8. #28  
    I apologize if I'm disrupting this thread but I was just curious what the aim of this is? Are you guys looking to hopefully find more safe ways to speed up the palm devices and gain power savings and eventually release a new kernel for homebrew? Or is this just purely for fun?
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by 6tr6tr View Post
    I apologize if I'm disrupting this thread but I was just curious what the aim of this is? Are you guys looking to hopefully find more safe ways to speed up the palm devices and gain power savings and eventually release a new kernel for homebrew? Or is this just purely for fun?
    Latency reduction is the goal of this round of research I believe.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
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  10. #30  
    Ummm gee can anyone explain to ME why ALL of my posts on this thread were just DELETED?

    Thats not very nice...

    Id really appreciate some explanation..

    Thanks
    I have always been a "Phone" person. My love of "Phones" started at an early age. Avatar to the left, is circa 1952, see the sparkle in my lil toddler eyes
    Cell History: Bag Phone, Brick Phone, Various Micro Tacs, Treo's, Centro, the PRE!


    I Pre

  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by dianehelen View Post
    Ummm gee can anyone explain to ME why ALL of my posts on this thread were just DELETED?

    Thats not very nice...

    Id really appreciate some explanation..

    Thanks
    It was a surprise to me too - I woke up to read quoted replies to messages that no longer existed.

    And I just noticed most of my posts are removed too.

    I guess the moderators made a call and executed on it. That's their prerogative on their forum, so I won't make a fuss about it.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  12. #32  
    i dont get this, what is the point?

    Whats the difference with this kernel and CAJ's?

    Does yours provide more power savings since it scales? what? *** does it do?
  13.    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by 6tr6tr View Post
    I apologize if I'm disrupting this thread but I was just curious what the aim of this is? Are you guys looking to hopefully find more safe ways to speed up the palm devices and gain power savings and eventually release a new kernel for homebrew? Or is this just purely for fun?
    In this particular case I am trying to create a kernel that fits my workload. As Rod said, low latency is one of the priorities, and ultimately I hope to integrate Ingo Molnar's realtime patch in the kernel (see https://rt.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Main_Page for more information than you probably want).

    Above and beyond that, I am also looking to extend the battery life, again according to my own usage patterns. To do this I am employing Intel's "race to idle" strategy (google for details) which should overall lead to better performance. Another issue I am working on is to strip down the kernel to reduce the memory footprint; Palm left a lot of the debug features enabled, many of which can be disabled to reduce the kernel size (and at the same time give a very small performance boost).

    I am making my mods available so that other hackers can build on them; ultimately I would not be surprised if there is a kernel package in the preware feed based on this, but I very much doubt it would be from me.

    Cheers, Steve
  14.    #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by gselsidi View Post
    i dont get this, what is the point?

    Whats the difference with this kernel and CAJ's?

    Does yours provide more power savings since it scales? what? *** does it do?
    CAJ's kernel is tested, validated, and has been verified by multiple people before anyone else gets to see it. My kernel is a raw binary blob that is intended to be usable only by other hackers. In short: if you do not understand what it does from the description I posted at the start of the thread, I would very strongly recommend you do not even attempt to install it, but to wait until something appears in the preware feed.

    To put it succinctly: with my kernel there is a small but still non-zero chance you can wipe your Pre or physically destroy it.

    Cheers, Steve
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by sbromwich View Post
    CAJ's kernel is tested, validated, and has been verified by multiple people before anyone else gets to see it. My kernel is a raw binary blob that is intended to be usable only by other hackers. In short: if you do not understand what it does from the description I posted at the start of the thread, I would very strongly recommend you do not even attempt to install it, but to wait until something appears in the preware feed.

    To put it succinctly: with my kernel there is a small but still non-zero chance you can wipe your Pre or physically destroy it.

    Cheers, Steve
    from reading what you wrote i thought you already had it compiled and everything was up and running and showed significant improvements over caj's since on demand scaling ect. is enabled. but i guess not lol i'll wait until people work on it more
  16. #36  
    Moderator note - Off Topic posts were removed due to the severe detour this thread took. It is under further review. Please stay on topic as sbromwich deserves to have his thread maitain continuity.
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  17.    #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by gselsidi View Post
    from reading what you wrote i thought you already had it compiled and everything was up and running and showed significant improvements over caj's since on demand scaling ect. is enabled. but i guess not lol i'll wait until people work on it more
    It is compiled and up and running. The kernel I posted yesterday is already out of date, I am compiling newer versions right now. A contact at Palm says I will probably have problems with WAN connections due to certain deep technical issues.

    I would not necessarily say that my kernel is faster than Caj's (or vice versa); it is simply a different approach. In certain circumstances I can state that my kernel is indubitably slower than Caj's; I suspect the reverse is also true.

    I bow to your wisdom on deferring until something usable is available; I know Caj is working hard on a proper ipkg that (if I understand) will make its way into the preware feed eventually.

    Cheers, Steve
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by dianehelen View Post
    Ummm gee can anyone explain to ME why ALL of my posts on this thread were just DELETED?

    Thats not very nice...

    Id really appreciate some explanation..

    Thanks
    sprint cleaning.. now come delete the posts that ask why posts were deleted and post a post explaining the nature as to why deleted and ask folks to focus back on the task at hand.

    oh look there it is...

    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypre View Post
    Moderator note - Off Topic posts were removed due to the severe detour this thread took. It is under further review. Please stay on topic as sbromwich deserves to have his thread maitain continuity.
    yay! now delete the why posts were deleted posts and this post and yeppie
    MatterOfFactJack
  19. #39  
    Hi all -

    A lot of posts in this thread have been deleted for a few reasons:

    - There was some off-topic
    - There was some over-heated wording
    - we felt there was a risk of a real derailment

    The essence of the discussion was whether or not it was responsible to post alpha-level kernel code on our forums. The answer is that with the appropriately stern disclaimers and warnings that this is not for actual phones in use, but for developers to discuss kernel development, it is. I am VERY pleased to see this kind of discussion in our developer forums and hope to foster it in the future.

    I suppose it's possible that the warnings in the first post could have been sterner (I've added such a warning despite my strong aversion to editing other people's posts). In the future, please put warnings in boldface and err on the side of caution when suggesting who would ought to look at the code.

    The important thing here is to have the development discussion - the argument about whether providing links to code in this forum or whether this is an appropriate forum is hereby over - yes and yes, with appropriate warnings.

    Rather than fiddle with which deleted posts do or do not cross the gray area and therefore potentially risk letting this thread go off topic again, I'm going to leave them deleted. If you would like a post undeleted, would like me to email you the contents of your deleted posts for reference, or have ANY other forum issues you'd like to address to me, the best method is to email me directly - dieter@precentral.net

    Now - and apologies for being off topic myself - BACK ON TOPIC!!
  20. #40  
    to caj, we all love your work and thank you for it and for being so carefull while testing this.

    BTW, if anyone messes with you, let me know and i will put my suit on.
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