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  1.    #1  
    As you know here in Europe it is not even possible to try the demos of the fancy 3d Games available in the USA for the Pre. Isn't it possible, that someone rips one of these Demos and provides a ipgk file to install it via WebOsQuickinstall? It should not be illegal for free demos. Man, just want to demonstrate what the Pre is capable of and face it to the f***'in Iphone.
  2. #2  
    Quote Originally Posted by ersinet View Post
    As you know here in Europe it is not even possible to try the demos of the fancy 3d Games available in the USA for the Pre. Isn't it possible, that someone rips one of these Demos and provides a ipgk file to install it via WebOsQuickinstall? It should not be illegal for free demos. Man, just want to demonstrate what the Pre is capable of and face it to the f***'in Iphone.
    just cause it's free doesn't mean it's legal to rip it. you could download doom from preware. it's a little archaic, but it's still "3d". otherwise you should probably wait. i'm sure it's definitely frustrating to be limited, just like it's frustrating for developers to be limited to selling apps in the US.
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  3. #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by shanerooni View Post
    just cause it's free doesn't mean it's legal to rip it.
    Oh come on. You might be right in the letter of the law, but what about its spirit? Ripping a program is piracy, and therefore stealing. But how can you steal something that is free in the first place? How is it at all acceptable for somebody to offer a certain product or service to one group of people for free while not offering it to others at no extra cost or inconvenience? Remember, when you do that within one country, it's called segregation.

    Not being able to sell their paid apps here is a different beast entirely; Palm are only setting up payment systems here, that takes a while. Fair enough, I'll have to wait. But if a drugstore has a box of little one-use trial shampoo bottles in front of its window, and there's a sign that says FREE! (FOR AMERICANS!) and I take one, you tell me, am I a bad guy for taking one just because I'm German?

    And that's even a bad analogy because the little trial shampoo bottles are a depletable resource; every one that's taken leaves less in the box. Demo downloads are an INFINITE resource (if you forget about bandwidth, which I really don't think should be a problem). After two million are downloaded, the files on the server remain completely undiminished.

    So is ripping a Demo that a company offers to Americans for free and to nobody else at all a crime? Consider that the company that made the demo is not making any money off the ones they give away in the US, and are not losing any money off the ones that someone else gives away everywhere else. A crime could scarcely be more victimless.

    Do I really need to give a lecture on the duty of civil disobedience?
  4. #4  
    You could also try and email the developer. If enough people do this they might switch it to world wide.
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  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by Hz-R View Post
    You could also try and email the developer. If enough people do this they might switch it to world wide.
    that sounds like a better idea. but @godshapedhole, to each his or her own. i was just stating it's probably not completely legal. don't really care what you do with it.
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  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by GodShapedHole View Post
    Oh come on. You might be right in the letter of the law, but what about its spirit? Ripping a program is piracy, and therefore stealing. But how can you steal something that is free in the first place? How is it at all acceptable for somebody to offer a certain product or service to one group of people for free while not offering it to others at no extra cost or inconvenience? Remember, when you do that within one country, it's called segregation.

    Not being able to sell their paid apps here is a different beast entirely; Palm are only setting up payment systems here, that takes a while. Fair enough, I'll have to wait. But if a drugstore has a box of little one-use trial shampoo bottles in front of its window, and there's a sign that says FREE! (FOR AMERICANS!) and I take one, you tell me, am I a bad guy for taking one just because I'm German?

    And that's even a bad analogy because the little trial shampoo bottles are a depletable resource; every one that's taken leaves less in the box. Demo downloads are an INFINITE resource (if you forget about bandwidth, which I really don't think should be a problem). After two million are downloaded, the files on the server remain completely undiminished.

    So is ripping a Demo that a company offers to Americans for free and to nobody else at all a crime? Consider that the company that made the demo is not making any money off the ones they give away in the US, and are not losing any money off the ones that someone else gives away everywhere else. A crime could scarcely be more victimless.

    Do I really need to give a lecture on the duty of civil disobedience?
    Quote Originally Posted by shanerooni View Post
    that sounds like a better idea. but @godshapedhole, to each his or her own. i was just stating it's probably not completely legal. don't really care what you do with it.
    shanerooni is right. The fact the demo isn't available in other countries has nothing to do with racism/segregation as you implied, but is not available there now for a reason. Distributing closed-source code ( which i'm sure the demos are ) without the consent of the developer //would// be illegal.
  7. #7  
    What's the big problem? Don't paid apps come to Europe in March anyway?
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrett92C View Post
    What's the big problem? Don't paid apps come to Europe in March anyway?
    Easy for you (in the US) to say!
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by Veritas06 View Post
    shanerooni is right. The fact the demo isn't available in other countries has nothing to do with racism/segregation as you implied, but is not available there now for a reason.
    That reason being? It's not just this demo or the other demos, you know. I'd guess more than half of the FREE app catalog that you guys in the US get is unavailable here. So, why? Free for you, but there's a good reason we don't get it? If you know what it is, feel free to tell me.

    Like I said, I wasn't talking strict letter-of-the-law legality but morality; how can it be illegal to steal something that's free? Because some lobbyist told a lawmaker it should be. How can it be IMMORAL to steal something that's free for some people, but not even offered to you out of something that's not racism but has a "good reason" I have yet to understand? Laws are meant to serve the people. When they stop doing that, it's a citizen's duty to disobey.

    Also, we're not getting "paid apps" in March in Europe, we're getting a PAYMENT SYSTEM. If everything keeps on trucking the way it has so far, that means we'll still see none of the Apps in America now, but EU developers will have the chance to sell their EU Apps here, with American developers staying well clear of the European ghetto in the list of countries they want their apps to be downloaded in.

    BTW I'm not saying that devs are overt racists or anything. That's silly. I'd rather say the problem is thoughtless Americocentrism - it's not maliciousness that's keeping them from releasing some apps to us, in most cases they're probably just not thinking of Europe. If the last time you've thought of Europe was seven months ago, you probably won't think of scrolling down and clicking France, Germany, Ireland, England etc., you'll just hit USA and be done.

    Gameloft and EA are probably different there and the only reason I can see is that they're not giving us the demoes before we have a chance to buy the full product. Which still sucks when you think about it.
    Last edited by GodShapedHole; 02/21/2010 at 06:14 AM.
  10. zonyl's Avatar
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    #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by GodShapedHole View Post
    Like I said, I wasn't talking strict letter-of-the-law legality but morality; how can it be illegal to steal something that's free? Because some lobbyist told a lawmaker it should be. How can it be IMMORAL to steal something that's free for some people, but not even offered to you out of something that's not racism but has a "good reason" I have yet to understand? Laws are meant to serve the people. When they stop doing that, it's a citizen's duty to disobey.
    All software is licensed either explicitly or implicitly. Just because something doesnt require monetary compensation doesnt mean it has no other stated compensation / restriction.

    For example: BusyBox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I have written a lot of GPL software (no $$ required) in the spirit of community development and if you modified my software without giving your changes back to me, you are morally wrong.

    Hypothetically: The games mentioned may violate child violence protection laws of other countries. The company could be liable in those countries if they havent reviewed / registered with each country. If they just hap-hazardly throw software out to the world, a child in Thailand running the game might have a seizure and the parents could possibly have grounds for a lawsuit against the company for negligence.
    Last edited by zonyl; 02/21/2010 at 06:34 AM.
  11. catdaemon's Avatar
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    #11  
    PC demos get mirrored everywhere and nobody seems to mind.
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrett92C View Post
    What's the big problem? Don't paid apps come to Europe in March anyway?
    even though paid apps are coming soon, it's just the availability of the developer to include particular countries in their submission of paid apps. people could still decide they don't want germany to get their paid apps, and further cause frustration.

    most people want to get paid, so fear not godshapedhole. you'll get yours eventually. all you can do is wait. if you want to complain in the meantime, do it up. if you want to bow out and get rid of the phone, you have that right. otherwise, sit back and wait. we had to wait for apps too. not as long, and the catalog is still VERY limited.

    @godshapedhold, can you download free and beta apps that are in AppScoup? i haven't heard any foreigners talk about the web and beta distributions there. thanks.
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    #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by Catdaemon View Post
    PC demos get mirrored everywhere and nobody seems to mind.
    It comes down to a matter of Distribution:

    For someone to be held liable in a court the prosecuting party needs to establish negligence.

    If Palm requires the game company to specify the countries the software can be distributed in and they select 'All' without considering laws of those countries, they are obviously negligent.

    If Palm didnt require the company to specify or the binary was thrown up on a website somewhere you would have a tough time proving they were negligent if someone in another country got a hold of it.
  14. #14  
    the developers know of piracy and they know that it's goin to happen so if a game gets pirated then it's going to happen. Whether it's legal or not who cares? Go make a copy of a free demo. Who cares? This country is based off of illegal acts. Developers can't cry if there game gets pirated. Especially if it's a free demo. Get over it and find a way to stop your game from getting pirated. If you can't then don't cry. In the mean time us as humans are very resourceful and are goin to find a way to get things. That's like tryin to stop drugs. It's NEVER going to happen so y waste ur time and try to stop sumthin that's not goin to be stopped? If you don't wanna wait then you souldnt have to get out there and take control...
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by Willmays87 View Post
    the developers know of piracy and they know that it's goin to happen so if a game gets pirated then it's going to happen. Whether it's legal or not who cares? Go make a copy of a free demo. Who cares? This country is based off of illegal acts. Developers can't cry if there game gets pirated. Especially if it's a free demo. Get over it and find a way to stop your game from getting pirated. If you can't then don't cry. In the mean time us as humans are very resourceful and are goin to find a way to get things. That's like tryin to stop drugs. It's NEVER going to happen so y waste ur time and try to stop sumthin that's not goin to be stopped? If you don't wanna wait then you souldnt have to get out there and take control...
    i disagree... i think by "resourceful" you may actually mean "selfish", but that's just me.
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  16. #16  
    that's ur opinion and are entitled to it
  17. #17  
    Just my two cents.. I live in Germany and therefore, my app catalog is extremely limited. One reason is that even free apps that are not limited to a regional use are only submitted for the US (which kind of ****es me off, but that's basically Palm's fault, they have to make the submission process easier). The other reason of course is that paid apps are not available yet.

    And that is the point: technically we could play the demo games, yes. But what's the point of a demo if the average user wants to buy it afterwards and can't because it's not available yet? If you go to a store and try something out and you like it, then you want to buy it immediately. It's that simple.

    I'm tired of this waiting too, but this time it should actually be over soon. Until then, keep in mind that there are many users who don't read in forums, and they would be very confused if they find a demo they can't buy.
    Last edited by Blacklight; 02/24/2010 at 08:23 AM.
  18. #18  
    does gameloft want to allow the demos in europe, but app catalog logistics on palms side won't allow it until march?

    do the demos exist for iphone in europe?

    would gameloft do this if they could logistically.

    if so, then perhaps there isn't an issue moraly, just technically.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by windzilla View Post
    does gameloft want to allow the demos in europe, but app catalog logistics on palms side won't allow it until march?

    do the demos exist for iphone in europe?

    would gameloft do this if they could logistically.

    if so, then perhaps there isn't an issue moraly, just technically.
    Any developer can release their free apps to Europe if they want to.

    Gameloft probably doesn't want to because they can't sell the full version. Why offer a demo that is supposed to entice people into buying the full version when the full version isn't available yet? The whole point of a demo is that when it's over, the person would be tempted at that very moment to purchase the full version. Without the full version available, they would be losing sales by releasing the demo prematurely.
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  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by DanPLC View Post
    Any developer can release their free apps to Europe if they want to.

    Gameloft probably doesn't want to because they can't sell the full version. Why offer a demo that is supposed to entice people into buying the full version when the full version isn't available yet? The whole point of a demo is that when it's over, the person would be tempted at that very moment to purchase the full version. Without the full version available, they would be losing sales by releasing the demo prematurely.
    I understand the point of the demo, its basically an advertisment and trial. I don't understand how if (a big if) they are planning on selling the game in the immediate future, having a trial of that game available to whet peoples appetites prior to the full version, would reduce sales. videogame companies have done this for a long time with playable demo previews in consoles.

    gameloft is, by there website atleast intending to sell games in the UK soon, using a demo may not be techincally appropriate right now, but, it is not the same moral fault as using a game that you have to pay for elsewhere. you are using a trial program for trial purposes of a game which will be available in full.

    IE using it for its intended purpose.

    click around until you see the pre on the wheel

    http://www.gameloft.co.uk/

    granted, thats the same image available on the other sites like Australia, which doesn't have the pre.

    but thats why i asked those questions, IE do they intend to sell it soon, with trials versions, and is it available on other platforms there already.

    its not a legal argument i am making its a would this adversely effect sales, or do harm, question.
    Last edited by windzilla; 02/24/2010 at 08:52 AM.

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