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  1. #121  
    Ok a stupid question. I've installed everything, and ran a backup. When I attach the Palm as a USB device, I am unable to get to the /media/internal folder. What am I doing wrong? I know I could use SSH or WebOSInstaller; however, USB would be great.
  2. #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by DrewPre View Post
    ...Anyway, your response generates some questions... Namely, and most important would of course be, what method of exatracting data using api's would allow for insertion of the same data and be a process that would still function properly across a schema change like the one you describe or any other for that matter? It sounds like it would involve a lot of work, but could garauntee the safety of the data.

    I guess to answer that question you'd have to nail down exactly what specific changes you think Palm is going to make. Then plan accordingly. My issue is that I am a bit leary about trying to play the game of 'what is palm going to do next?'
    DrewPre -

    You've presented a good question and I apologize in advance if this response is too wordy.

    The idea behind using the published APIs is that it is designed to protect you as the developer. We both seem to agree that an application that "goes directly" to the data (bypassing APIs) is subject to breaking should Palm change their internal data structure or change where they store their data. In fact this is what makes patches so dependent upon each operating system version. But we all expect this behavior and in anticipation of a new release, we remove our patches, update our phones, and then install new versions of the patches. That's because the patches are going directly to files that Palm "owns" and may at any point be modified.

    The API is designed to protect the developer from this. Think of an API as a contract between Palm and you ... the developer. Any responsible developer (and I include Palm in this category) takes this contract seriously. Using our previous example (from my earlier posting) of an API call getContact. You as the developer shouldn't care where the contact information is stored. Their guarantee to you is that the call will work even if they move it's storage location in a future release of the OS.

    However what happens if they change the internal structure of the Contact object? Wouldn't that break your restore? For example let's say that you've retrieved a Contact that had the following attributes: String contact name, String contact home phone, String contact work phone. And let's further assume that your application restored the contact (via the following APIs). (1) First you create a new Contact via api call Contact c = new Contact(); (2) then you populate the name via api call c.setContactName("John Doe"); (3) then you populate the phone numbers via api calls c.setHomePhone("111-111-1111"); and c.setWorkPhone("222-222-2222");

    Okay so even if they add new attributes to the Contact such as mobile phone, your code will still work even though the definition of Contact object has changed in the new version. When you restore the contact your api calls will still work.

    However what happens if their change is more drastic. What happens if they decide to replace the two phone attributes with an array of a newly created Phone object which has the following attributes: Integer phoneType (ex. 0=Home, 1=Work, 2=Mobile, 3=Fax, 4=Other) and String phoneNumber. So the new Contact now has these attributes: String contact name, Phone[] phoneNumbers (an array of phone number objects). Wouldn't your code break? The answer is yes and no.

    Your code will break if Palm doesn't honor their contract with you and simply remove their api calls setHomePhone and setWorkPhone.

    However if they take the contract seriously they would change the two apis so they work properly. For example they might change the setHomePhone api call so that it would do something like this in response to your call of c.setHomePhone("111-111-1111"): (1) they would create a new Phone object via api call Phone p = new Phone(); (2) they would populate the Phone object with a phoneType of Other via api call p.setType(4); (3) they would populate the number with api call p.setNumber("111-111-1111"); (4) then they would add the new phone object to the contact via api call c.addPhone(p);

    So you can see that your code would still work because you're still (1) creating a Contact (2) populating the name (3) populating the home phone number and (4) populating the work phone number. If they're responsible they've assumed the responsibility to make sure that the old api calls that you're using still work properly.

    Now in the above case what they would probably do is deprecate the calls setHomePhone and setWorkPhone and create a new api call setPhone(Phone p) which takes a phone object as its parameter. By deprecating the old api calls they're notifying you ... the developer (1) that these apis are only around for backwards compatibility and (2) that they reserve the right to remove these apis in a future release and that you should update your application to use the newer api.

    In theory this is the way that things are supposed to work. Personally, I work for a major conglomerate and have developed many web services which are used by other corporations. Over the years we have had to update the type of information returned by some of our our apis. So we follow the scenario outlined above. We guarantee (and test) that applications using our old apis still work and return the same data that they always did but at the same time we supply newer apis that return a richer set of data. Sometimes we deprecate the old apis and sometimes we leave them.

    I hope that this explains why it is to the developer's benefit to use established apis when developing applications. As said before, apis can be ignored when developing a patch where there are no guarantees (by the developer and Palm) that the patch will work when a new release is issued.

    Once more I apologize for this length of this response and once more let me congratulate you on your perseverance and dedication to "getting it right". I'm looking forward to your adding a Palm to Google option in the code because I really need to get my Palm contacts into Google as I trust the Google cloud more than Palm's cloud. Plus once in Google's cloud, I can use Google to export them as a csv file and store them in csv form on my pc.

    Best of luck

    - Norman
  3. DrewPre's Avatar
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       #123  
    heh! I had to read that twice!! Very infomative and enlightening. seriously. I completly understand what you're saying. Gonna keep working on this adn seeing how I can improve it and broaden my knowledge at the same time. The goal being what you've baasically described. A process that will withstand any modifications Palm might make.

    Right now, I am working on the asynchronous communications between it and the service. Sending commands to the service is working obviously. But not vice versa. For some reason this seems more intimidating and overwhelming than anything else up to this point.

    sigh
  4. davem2421's Avatar
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    #124  
    ok, stupid question and I'm sure you've been asked this a 1000x's so I apologize if this has been answered already. I've skimmed thr most of the 7 pages and either I'm reading over it or it's not there..

    so here goes....


    is this app available yet on preware? if so where is it?

    if not sorry to have bugged you.... :-)
  5. DrewPre's Avatar
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       #125  
    It's at the bottom of this rather long post....

    http://forums.precentral.net/web-os-...ml#post2056899
  6. jmelan's Avatar
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    #126  
    ...deleted by me. used link from below post to install.
    Last edited by jmelan; 11/24/2009 at 06:42 AM.
  7. #127  
    Very early alpha ipkgs are in the webos-internals testing feed:

    Index of /feeds/webos-internals/testing/all

    I need to give the following disclaimer (which DrewPre has approved for use in the Description field in Preware):

    THIS APPLICATION MAY DESTROY DATA ON YOUR PHONE. DO NOT USE IT UNLESS YOU ARE WILLING TO RISK LOSING ALL DATA ON YOUR PHONE, AND POSSIBLY THE DATA IN YOUR PALM PROFILE TOO.

    Please test the ipkgs on the emulator only, and report your experiences. I personally have not tested any of this at all yet, other than performing a single backup and not looking very carefully at what was produced.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  8. jmelan's Avatar
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    #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by htpcMe View Post
    Ok a stupid question. I've installed everything, and ran a backup. When I attach the Palm as a USB device, I am unable to get to the /media/internal folder. What am I doing wrong? I know I could use SSH or WebOSInstaller; however, USB would be great.
    unable to access via USB as well. webos quick install gives me an error message - unable to open file


    so i have successfully made a backup but am unable to copy the file to my computer


    ***edit***

    well i must have made a mistake before - using the service installer from the above post i now get files that i can transfer, and the ppbackup folder is accesible via the USB drive option

    will post results in a little while on my backup and restore to a new phone
    Last edited by jmelan; 11/23/2009 at 09:26 PM.
  9. davem2421's Avatar
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    #129  
    Thank you DrewPre
  10. DrewPre's Avatar
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       #130  
    You're Welcome, Dave.

    @NormanRoss,

    I just replied to an email of someone who had basically hosed their Pre. not because of this app but they were manually copying this file and that folder and .... well... they screwed something up.

    So in trying to get them back on track, It occured to me.... We don't need to try and figure out what Palm is going to do. Are they going to change the schema or structure? Are they going to change file names? Are they going to converrt from a linux underbelly to MS DOS?

    The thing is that if they change something, Palm will already have figured out the path to upgrade.

    If I am running webOS 1.3.1 and Palm releases v1.4.0. Then ALLOW palm to upgrade my Pre. The purpose of this app is not to protect against Palm's updates. [Palm's backups are another story] Palm will have presumably already have contigencies built into their upgrade process. The user will have to realize they need to take another backup after the upgrade. That way any future backup will restore to that version of the Pre because it came from that version! In fact I could webOS Doctor my Pre with 1.4.0 and use that same restore from 1.4.0.

    No need to invent SQL Queries and API calls to extract data from one version of the DB to import into another. Just implement a webOS version check into the App. If a user attempts to restore a v1.2.1 backup to v1.3.1 webOS, then create a popup telling the user that they are restoring to a newer version of webOS and this may render they Pre unusable [a disclaimer] and allow the user to make the decision on the upgrade path they want to take.

    Most of the time and in my experience, backups have worked across webOS versions. Such has been the case from 1.1 to 1.3.1. Even if that ceases to be the case, at least the user has the choice and takes the risk.
  11. #131  
    Quote Originally Posted by DrewPre View Post
    @NormanRoss,

    No need to invent SQL Queries and API calls to extract data from one version of the DB to import into another. Just implement a webOS version check into the App. If a user attempts to restore a v1.2.1 backup to v1.3.1 webOS, then create a popup telling the user that they are restoring to a newer version of webOS and this may render they Pre unusable [a disclaimer] and allow the user to make the decision on the upgrade path they want to take.
    DrewPre -

    I have to admit that although I've downloaded the SDK, I haven't had the time to do much exploring of the Pre internals so I've restricted my posts to a high-level overview of the APIs and direct data and file manipulation.

    So speaking without first hand knowledge of the Pre internals it seems to be that your latest suggestion of a version check is an excellent idea and would be a safe and reliable operation as long as its used to restore to the same os version. I think that it should also recommended that a backup be performed every time a 3rd party application is updated if the database file that you're backing up (and restoring) is also used by the 3rd party applications. Since these applications are typically updated within the same os release and they may have re-engineered where and how they save their information, the newer (post update) backup would ensure that the restore is restoring the updated data and not the older version which may longer be compatible with the updated application.

    But as you say it would be the responsibility of the user to make that determination.
  12. jmelan's Avatar
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    #132  
    attempting to restore to the new phone, however, the old files I transferred to the new phone are not showing up, and the "restore another backup" option is greyed out and unable to be selected
  13. #133  
    Quote Originally Posted by htpcMe View Post
    Ok a stupid question. I've installed everything, and ran a backup. When I attach the Palm as a USB device, I am unable to get to the /media/internal folder. What am I doing wrong? I know I could use SSH or WebOSInstaller; however, USB would be great.

    I too am having this problem. I installed the app and service via WebOsQuickInstall. The app runs fine and seems to be generating backup files. I've done 3 backups and they're all listed by the app. The app is the only thing that seems to be able to see any of these files, however. The /media/internal/ppbackup folder does not appear whether I connect as a USB drive or if I go through novaterm. The /ppbackup directory just doesn't seem to exist at all. Any ideas?
  14. jmelan's Avatar
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    #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by eff20see View Post
    I too am having this problem. I installed the app and service via WebOsQuickInstall. The app runs fine and seems to be generating backup files. I've done 3 backups and they're all listed by the app. The app is the only thing that seems to be able to see any of these files, however. The /media/internal/ppbackup folder does not appear whether I connect as a USB drive or if I go through novaterm. The /ppbackup directory just doesn't seem to exist at all. Any ideas?
    have you installed the GNU tar from preware as well?

    ppbackup is accesible via USB if the backup was actually created - should take a little bit of time to complete

    if the backup seems to finish instantly and you can not find ppbackup, then the service is probably not running correctly and a backup was not actually created ( i had the exact same problem when i tried to install the service manually)

    still waiting on a solution to restore to my new phone, although I do have a 90MB file from the ppbackup folder
  15. DrewPre's Avatar
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       #135  
    Ooops, i guess you're gonna need that FilePicker sooner than later. I'll get right on that.

    But do remember that this app has a dependancy on Gnu Tar. Once it's on Preware you won't be able to install it without installing Gnu Tar first. But for now you'll have to install it manually.

    I had a check built in, but for various reasons, I took it out.

    Install Gnu Tar via novaterm or SSH by typing 'ipkg-opt install tar'

    then re-run the backups.

    It's telling you it's succeeding but it really isn't! It hasn't done anything because Tar wasn't installed. That's why you cant find the files in USB mode. The service is returning this info but the Application isn't reporting it. It's just reporting success!

    That's one of the bugs, I'm working on . Two way communication between the app and service. obviously its working one way to start the backup process but it's not getting feedback from the service, like a needed prerequisite has not been met. [this is also why I suspect the app hangs waiting for the service to finish even tho it has finished].

    Once I can figure how to recieve the messages that the service is sending, then the messages the user sees will be more accurate.
    Last edited by DrewPre; 11/24/2009 at 10:13 PM.
  16. DrewPre's Avatar
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       #136  
    Yea, what jmelan, said!!! ;0)

    Gonna crank out the file picker now. Standby to standby!
  17. #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by DrewPre View Post

    Install Gnu Tar via novaterm or SSH by typing 'ipkg install tar'
    DO NOT RUN THAT COMMAND AS WRITTEN - it will cause the same problems as MyTether caused with the 1.2.1 recurring updates problem, cause it will modify the built-in rootfs Palm ipkg database, not the Preware or Optware ones.

    Just go into Preware, and install the GNU Tar package from the Optware section.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  18. #138  
    What if you have installed Optware with the bootstrap script?
  19. #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by todivefor View Post
    What if you have installed Optware with the bootstrap script?
    ipkg-opt install tar

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
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    #140  
    Quote Originally Posted by eff20see View Post
    I too am having this problem. I installed the app and service via WebOsQuickInstall. The app runs fine and seems to be generating backup files. I've done 3 backups and they're all listed by the app. The app is the only thing that seems to be able to see any of these files, however. The /media/internal/ppbackup folder does not appear whether I connect as a USB drive or if I go through novaterm. The /ppbackup directory just doesn't seem to exist at all. Any ideas?
    I'm in the same boat. I installed via QI. It appears to happen quickly, and the ppbackup directory doesn't exist.

    Yes I have tar installed. Yes I bounced java.
    -----------------
    Palm III, Palm IIIc, TT, T3, T5, TX, Pre from Day 1.
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