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  1.    #1  
    I have been seeing alot of confusion surrounding the limitations on amount of apps that can be installed on the Pre currently. I wanted to take the time to hopefully clear this up some:

    First of all, all applications, regardless of installation method, get installed to /var. The /var partition is 248MB in size. Of this, 60MB or so is used by the WebOS itself for core apps. This leaves around 180MB of space for user installed apps. Now, for the good stuff.

    1) NUMBER of Applications Installed Limit: This is a true limit set by the way applications get installed by the App Catalog, FileCoaster, etc. I have yet to discover the "exact" number of apps this limit is set to, but some venture it to be "50". This will NOT include any SYSTEM apps installed (NFL, Google, Nascar, App Catalog itself, etc). Once this limit has been reached, no other app can be installed or updated by any of the apps that install via this method (App Catalog, FileCoaster, Updater, etc). It is something broken in the binary functions Luna calls in WebOS.

    2) SIZE of Applications Installed Limit: This is where you use PreWare, QuickInstall or Preload (confirmed?) to install applications. These apps will allow you to pass the limit of 50 Apps, but will still error once you have run out of space. In other words, once you hit the 248MB limit. If the average size of an app after install (Images, text, sounds, etc) is 1.5MB, then you could install an average of 130 Homebrew applications with these installers before reaching the limit. However, I would say the average size after install of MOST of the apps in Homebrew right now is LESS than 1MB, so 130 is by far an underestimate.

    Now that I have cleared that up, let's talk about the installers some:

    FileCoaster: Does not require QuickInstall to be installed. However, it cannot install Advance Homebrew Applications. When I say advanced homebrew applications, I am referring to apps that require binary services to be run. Examples would be Terminal and Internalz. So FileCoaster is good for some installation of packages, but not advanced homebrews. FileCoaster CANNOT bypass the NUMBER of apps installed limit. Cannot install Themes. Only uses Precentral feed.

    Preware: Requires QuickInstall to be installed. It can bypass the NUMBER of apps installed limit. It can also install advanced homebrew applications. Can install themes. Uses multiple feeds. Requires the IPKG Install Service from Webos-Internals.

    Preload: Same as PreWare as far as limits, etc. Cannot install Themes however. Uses the IPKG Install Service from Webos-Internals, if installed. Has Ads.

    QuickInstall: Requires a desktop or laptop (Windows, Mac or Linux). Requires Webosdoctor. Copies the content to the Pre via a novacom terminal. It can bypass the NUMBER of apps installed limit. It can also install advanced homebrew applications. It is also required for installation of Preware and Preload. Can install Themes. Uses multiple feeds.

    Palm App Catalog: Restricted to the NUMBER of apps installed limit.

    Palm Updater: restricted to the NUMBER of apps installed limit.

    UPDATE 9/26/09

    rwhitby has graciously shown us a way to get around the Number of Apps installed limit. Credit goes to him for the initial find. I have modified it a little to get around the SIZE of Apps installed limit.

    *** VERY IMPORTANT NOTE: If you have apps installed from the App Catalog that will need to be UPDATED, DELETE (Uninstall/Remove) them BEFORE you start the steps below!!! You can install the newest version with the App Catalog. ***
    *** VERY IMPORTANT NOTE 2: Order of icons and launch page positions will not be preserved! You will have to reorder your icons after you are finished! ***

    First, I will post the disclaimer directly from rwhitby:
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby
    If you don't know how to use the Linux command line, then search the webos-internals.org wiki for the basic linux usage page and read it from start to finish and then search Google for any bits which are not clear. If you don't know how to install the Terminal application, search the webos-internals.org wiki for the Terminal application page, and read it from start to finish, and then read the PreCentral threads about it as well. If you don't know how to install Preware (which you need to install the terminal), search the webos-internals.org wiki for the Preware application page, and read it from start to finish, and then read the PreCentral threads about it as well. Do not ask any questions about this post until you have found, and read three times, all of those pages. You perform these actions at your own risk.
    Now on with the show:

    1) *** READ THE VERY IMPORTANT NOTES 1 and 2 ABOVE!!! ***
    2) Open a linux command line (Terminal Applications will work) and type:
    Code:
    sudo su -
    mkdir /media/internal/homebrew
    mv /var/usr/palm/applications/* /media/internal/homebrew/*
    initctl stop LunaSysMgr
    initctl start LunaSysMgr
    ***Do not worry about errors about preserving user info. The files are still moving.***
    ***NOTE: DO NOT "exit" OR CLOSE the command line/terminal!!***

    2) Run App Catalog and install to your hearts content. If you already had more than 100 homebrew apps installed, do not install more than 40-50MB of new apps.

    3) Return to your linux command line/terminal and type:
    Code:
    mv /media/internal/homebrew/* /var/usr/palm/applications/
    chown root:root -R /var/usr/palm/applications/.
    rmdir /media/internal/homebrew
    initctl stop LunaSysMgr
    initctl start LunaSysMgr
    Last edited by dBsooner; 09/27/2009 at 04:20 AM.
  2. #2  
    So if I (and a bunch of other wimps and software illiterates) are trying to hold off and use my pre only as directed by sprint (don't install anything not coming direct from pre or sprint) - that leaves me outta luck when trying to install lottsa more apps from the pre app store.......... untill pre fixes the problem with a software update.

    IS THAT CORRECT ?
  3. #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekurek View Post
    So if I (and a bunch of other wimps and software illiterates) are trying to hold off and use my pre only as directed by sprint (don't install anything not coming direct from pre or sprint)
    Just curious ... where does Sprint say that (or where did you get that idea)? AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK $there$'$s$ $nothing$ $inherently$ &$quot$;$wrong$&$quot$; $about$ $the$ $basic$ $apps$ $in$ $the$ $Homebrew$ $section$ ... $as$ $long$ $as$ $they$ $don$'$t$ &$quot$;$tweak$&$quot$; $the$ $actual$ $WebOS$ $code$ ($and$ $it$'$s$ $pretty$ $obvious$ $which$ $ones$ $those$ $are$). $Palm$ $is$ $well$ $aware$ $of$ $the$ $Homebrew$ $apps$ $and$ $has$ $done$ $nothing$ $to$ $discourage$ $it$.
  4. ekuns's Avatar
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    #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekurek View Post
    So if I [am] trying to hold off and use my pre only as directed by sprint - that leaves me outta luck when trying to install lottsa more apps from the pre app store.......... untill pre fixes the problem with a software update.
    Basically, yes. Although as has been said, Palm and Sprint are doing nothing to discourage homebrew and don't appear to object to it, and they haven't directed us in any way that we can install "no unapproved" applications.

    Note that even if you use the workarounds above, the application store is still subject to this limitation.
  5.    #5  
    Sprint and Palm do not restrict us from installing homebrew applications on the Pre. This was the case with other devices, but not with the Pre. Other devices had the "we do not support your device if you have unsupported 3rd party applications installed on it." However, the Pre steps beyond that limit as most of the apps you install now will not hurt your device. As long as you don't go in there trying to rewrite the core OS, you can install what you want.
    Last edited by dBsooner; 09/25/2009 at 10:27 AM.
  6. #6  
    Let me go a layer beyond that.

    Not only has Sprint done nothing to DISCOURAGE us, but I have been asked to make a presentation at the Sprint Open Developers Conference in Santa Clara next month on "webOS and the development of an Open Source Ecology - the community, resources and opportunities."

    They are ENCOURAGING us to do open source and homebrew apps, or at least Sprint it.

    As a matter of fact, Sprint has also asked for a webinar on the same subject.

    So, you are doing nothing Sprint wants by avoiding homebrew and are actually slowing the process of the spread of more sophisticated advanced software for the Pre.

    THE most sophisticated software available for the Pre is homebrew. Period.

    Sprint not only doesn't care, but instead they think that's a GOOD thing.
  7. #7  
    Any word if this is solved in webOS 1.2? With paid apps around the corner and no doubt MANY more apps available, regular users are gonna be hitting this limit and get very confused.
  8.    #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by schnoid View Post
    Any word if this is solved in webOS 1.2? With paid apps around the corner and no doubt MANY more apps available, regular users are gonna be hitting this limit and get very confused.
    I have some information from a confidential source that says it will not be fixed in 1.2. They did mention Palm is aware of the issue and will work to fix it, but there are much larger issues to fix first. They will get to it soon.
    Last edited by dBsooner; 09/25/2009 at 10:27 AM.
  9. #9  
    It surprises me that they let 6+ Mb App in the catalog if they aren't fixing this in 1.2.
    Your Pre wants Word Whirl from the App Catalog.

    It told me.
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by decibel View Post
    I have some information from a confidential source that says it will not be fixed in 1.2. They did mention Palm is aware of the issue and will work to fix it, but there are much larger issues to fix first. They will get to it soon.
    wow, I hope you're wrong. There are gonna be enough apps in the app store to break the limit very soon (iif there aren't already) and Palm and Sprint are gonna be getting a heck of lot of calls from people confused about "out of memory" errors. Seems like a pretty minor fix that will potentially prevent a lot of headache, but I guess I don't know enough about the file system to know for sure.
  11. slp15's Avatar
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    #11  
    I agree. What happens if you purchase an app and then go to download it to find out you are out of memory?! Does it not charge you for the app? Hopefully this is corrected soon or alot of people will just hold off on buying apps through the catalog.
  12.    #12  
    Supposedly, What I read in the Pay-App info, if an app fails to install for any reason, or if it is pulled from the app catalog, the charges for it will be refunded.
  13. srfcrzy's Avatar
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    #13  
    So, in theory, how much memory could be made available for apps once this WebOS partitioning issue is fixed?
  14. #14  
    PreLoad installs themes, you just needt he updated package manager service and uset he download rooted option.

    They're in the categories list - thanks to PreThemer.com
    and rwhitby
    WOG Dev - WebOS Group http://www.WebOSGroup.com
    PMP Dev - http://www.PimpMyPre.com
    Apps: WOG O.S.K., WOG Card Keeper, WOG Glowstick, WOG Kid Protect, PreLoad, PimpMySounds
  15. #15  
    And I think people forget that behind the scenes things count as installs - package manager service and internalz for examples.
    May be why some people get "48" as their limit.
    WOG Dev - WebOS Group http://www.WebOSGroup.com
    PMP Dev - http://www.PimpMyPre.com
    Apps: WOG O.S.K., WOG Card Keeper, WOG Glowstick, WOG Kid Protect, PreLoad, PimpMySounds
  16. #16  
    So what is the best way to maximize your install limit.

    Here is my theory and let me know if I am totally off base.

    1) Get stock Pre
    2) Do the WebOS QI bit with Preware etc.
    3) Then install (through Preware) ALL homebrew apps, and only install apps normally through the app catalog that you need.

    This should allow most the app catalog ones, and all the homebrew you want correct?
    Just cant use Filecoaster or PreUpdate to get new or update because you will still get the memory error.

    Correct???
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by DJeremyC View Post
    So what is the best way to maximize your install limit.

    Here is my theory and let me know if I am totally off base.

    1) Get stock Pre
    2) Do the WebOS QI bit with Preware etc.
    3) Then install (through Preware) ALL homebrew apps, and only install apps normally through the app catalog that you need.

    This should allow most the app catalog ones, and all the homebrew you want correct?
    Just cant use Filecoaster or PreUpdate to get new or update because you will still get the memory error.

    Correct???
    No - any app you install with Preware, or the Download Rooted option with PreLoad lets you install past the app limit, but they still count. So you will NOT be able to install any apps from the app catalog if you are over it.

    Best option is to install apps as you need them, since you have a data plan and most likely always have a connection. THEN you can install any apps from the catalog you need any time you want to, and you can install the homebrew ones on demand. You wouldn't even need to install them in any special way (normal downlaod method in PreLoad would work fine). just delete the homebrew hwne you're done with it, unles it has information that it stores for you.
    WOG Dev - WebOS Group http://www.WebOSGroup.com
    PMP Dev - http://www.PimpMyPre.com
    Apps: WOG O.S.K., WOG Card Keeper, WOG Glowstick, WOG Kid Protect, PreLoad, PimpMySounds
  18. #18  
    So now we need a Homebrew app that increases that var partition size...!

    Great explanation! I cant wait for 1.2 to come so I can reinstall Preware and the likes.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by srfcrzy View Post
    So, in theory, how much memory could be made available for apps once this WebOS partitioning issue is fixed?
    i would assume that if they were smart they'd allow apps to be installed anywhere in the main partition so people could technically install 7+GB of apps if they wanted. I'm not sure why they limited app installations to the /var partition, but I can't personally think of a good reason.
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by davis.rob View Post
    Just curious ... where does Sprint say that (or where did you get that idea)? AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK $there$'$s$ $nothing$ $inherently$ &$quot$;$wrong$&$quot$; $about$ $the$ $basic$ $apps$ $in$ $the$ $Homebrew$ $section$ ... $as$ $long$ $as$ $they$ $don$'$t$ &$quot$;$tweak$&$quot$; $the$ $actual$ $WebOS$ $code$ ($and$ $it$'$s$ $pretty$ $obvious$ $which$ $ones$ $those$ $are$). $Palm$ $is$ $well$ $aware$ $of$ $the$ $Homebrew$ $apps$ $and$ $has$ $done$ $nothing$ $to$ $discourage$ $it$.
    I had a feeling my comment would raise some eyebrows....

    A Sprint person behind the repair counter (not just an authorized repair store but an actual Srint store employee) told me that my phone isn't supported if I install any software that didn't come from the Palm app catalog. In other words if I brick the phone and he believes I had inapropriate software on it - he will only replace it if I pay the $100fee, etc.

    I agree with "davis.rob", "ekuns" and "rboatright" - there's nothing wrong with homebrew apps and Palm has appearently set up the product to be used for everything and anything that a creative mind can come up with........... However some Sprint employees choose when and how much to help a customer.

    I'm sure I could get Sprint to stand behind my Pre if a homebrew app screwed it up - but if my local Sprint Tech won't help me then I have to start jumping through the Sprint Red Tape and I don't have time for that. The basic functions of my PDA are too important to me to loose them for a week muchless spend hours on the phone with three levels of customer service, etc.

    So going back to the original post (APP Limitations) - the entire future of this phone absolutly depends on the APPS it can run..... so why in the world would Palm not fix this problem immediately ? As much as Palm believes in Homebrew apps, I'm 100% sure they are not expecting the public to depend on the Homebrew Apps to fix this major bug untill they get around to it !

    I see this problem as a #1 priority for Palm, and in fact I think it should be fixed before they open up the flood gate of new Apps.
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