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  1. diomark's Avatar
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       #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by TCCCCnME View Post
    @Diomark So to copy the media/internal USB drive what command would I give? Is post #9 each step from start to finish? If not could you include a command to backup the default media/internal file where we can simply copy and paste?
    On my Pre, I had just not worried about it since it was a fresh install. But one easy way is to just hookup your Pre to your windows box, see it as a USB drive, then copy it's contents somewhere/copy it back afterwards.
    -mark
  2. diomark's Avatar
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       #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by spotter View Post
    Palm can just fix the problem by having the apps stored to /media/internal instead of /var and /usr.

    there's no reason any app needs to be written to the /var and /usr partitions in reality. It just has to tell luna to look at the right place in /media/internal.

    It's not that simple. /media/internal is a FAT16 DOS partition.. whereas /var and / are ext3 linux partitions.
    -mark
  3. spotter's Avatar
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    #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by diomark View Post
    It's not that simple. /media/internal is a FAT16 DOS partition.. whereas /var and / are ext3 linux partitions.
    -mark
    it's a fat16 partition that supports vfat. There's nothing in WebOS applications that depends on ext3 functionality as far as I know.

    i.e. you have long filenames (albeit a little more restricted in what characters they can use), you don't have extended attributes or even decent permission sets, but that shouldn't matter for webo, as everything runs as root anyways.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Robitaille View Post
    True, but the App Catalog, palm-install script, FileCoaster, and Preload use a method of installation that specifically installs to /var
    Where does Preware install to?
    Pilot 1000 -> Pilot 5000 ->Palm Pilot Professional -> HP 620LX -> TRG Pro -> Palm V -> Palm Vx -> Palm M505 -> Palm i705 -> Palm Tungsten|T -> Samsung i500 -> Treo 600->Treo 650 -> Treo 600-> Treo 700p ->Centro ->Treo 800w + Redfly C8n -> Palm Pre -> HP Touchpad
    R.I.P Palm 1996-2011
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by rc46 View Post
    Where does Preware install to?
    Everything installs to /var because that is where Palm decided downloadable applications go, and all the installers are following that either directly or indirectly.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by emoney_33 View Post
    Everything installs to /var because that is where Palm decided downloadable applications go, and all the installers are following that either directly or indirectly.
    OK, so how does Preware get around the space restrictions?
    Pilot 1000 -> Pilot 5000 ->Palm Pilot Professional -> HP 620LX -> TRG Pro -> Palm V -> Palm Vx -> Palm M505 -> Palm i705 -> Palm Tungsten|T -> Samsung i500 -> Treo 600->Treo 650 -> Treo 600-> Treo 700p ->Centro ->Treo 800w + Redfly C8n -> Palm Pre -> HP Touchpad
    R.I.P Palm 1996-2011
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by rc46 View Post
    Where does Preware install to?
    It, like WebOS Quick Install, installs to /var, but unlike the others, these 2 can easily change to installing wherever.

    I've talked to Chuq from Palm about this. He says it's a bad idea and while it may not break with 1.2, it will probably break things badly at some point.

    I'll probably include it in a future WebOS Quick Install version (not v2.5) in the hidden advanced, used-at-you-own-risk section, with a large disclaimer.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by rc46 View Post
    OK, so how does Preware get around the space restrictions?
    There are different "restriction" issues. There is the actual physical space on the /var partition, which no installer gets around.

    Then there is Palm's unknown protection that might be in the LunaSysMgr code, or other proprietary binaries that we do not have the source for. The app catalog and filecoaster use a Palm supplied API to install apps, which has some as-yet-to-be-discovered methodology for app restriction. Preware uses ipkgservice which uses the Linux ipkg command directly, which has no restrictions aside from not having enough physical space to write to.
  9. xorg's Avatar
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    #29  
    I've been perusing webOS code looking for the limitation. I've been able to bypass the error message, get it to download, but am not able to get a successful install (yet).
  10. diomark's Avatar
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       #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by emoney_33 View Post
    There are different "restriction" issues. There is the actual physical space on the /var partition, which no installer gets around.

    Then there is Palm's unknown protection that might be in the LunaSysMgr code, or other proprietary binaries that we do not have the source for. The app catalog and filecoaster use a Palm supplied API to install apps, which has some as-yet-to-be-discovered methodology for app restriction. Preware uses ipkgservice which uses the Linux ipkg command directly, which has no restrictions aside from not having enough physical space to write to.
    My understanding is that the palm app installer's limitation is at least 33% free space on /var, is this not the case?

    For what it's worth, I haven't hit the limit yet after expanding my /var paritition. (But so far I'm only running ~50 apps above and beyond the stock apps..)

    -mark
  11. xorg's Avatar
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    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by diomark View Post
    My understanding is that the palm app installer's limitation is at least 33% free space on /var, is this not the case?
    Apparently not. I have 45% free on /var and not able to install more app catalog apps. I haven't been able to find in the code yet exactly what the condition is for limiting.
  12. spotter's Avatar
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    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by xorg View Post
    Apparently not. I have 45% free on /var and not able to install more app catalog apps. I haven't been able to find in the code yet exactly what the condition is for limiting.
    same here, my var is only 35% used (65% free, 88MB used, 160MB free) and I can't install anything via app catalog.
  13. #33  
    I currently believe there are 2 memory limits. One set by Palm in their installer command (used by palm-install, App Catalog, FileCoaster, and PreLoad).

    The second, I believe, is set in the ipkg program (which is what Preware and WebOS Quick Install use). The Palm-instated limit occurs first, but eventually you will reach the second one.

    I could be wrong as I don't have a Pre to test personally, but this is just what my best guess is, based off support emails I've gotten and posts I've read on these forums
  14. xorg's Avatar
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    #34  
    I don't think it's in ipkg command set. I did a manual install and it works. PreWare uses it and it has no install limit.

    I've decompiled the installer jar luna class files at the core and still don't see where the limit is. It may be in the LunaSysMgr as others have suggested.

    I do have a workaround but it's not pretty, only for linux power users...
    http://forums.precentral.net/web-os-...-research.html

    You have to edit the findapps to allow a download to occur, grab the file from /media/internal/downloads and then manually install with ipkg. I got past the error message and get the app to download from app catalog, but don't have it installing yet. Manually works though.

    Hopefully Palm fixes this in 1.2.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by spotter View Post
    it's a fat16 partition that supports vfat. There's nothing in WebOS applications that depends on ext3 functionality as far as I know.

    i.e. you have long filenames (albeit a little more restricted in what characters they can use), you don't have extended attributes or even decent permission sets, but that shouldn't matter for webo, as everything runs as root anyways.
    There's nothing in pure webOS apps, but some advanced homebrew apps need to be installed where symlinks and execute file permissions are available, which excludes /media/internal.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by xorg View Post
    I don't think it's in ipkg command set. I did a manual install and it works. PreWare uses it and it has no install limit.

    I've decompiled the installer jar luna class files at the core and still don't see where the limit is. It may be in the LunaSysMgr as others have suggested.
    Both the space and number limits are in the proprietary binary LunaSysMgr file. You can do 'strings' on the file to see the relevant error messages.

    The ipkg command-line tool will keep installing stuff until /var is full. We know that for certain because it is an open source tool.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  17. #37  
    Far-flung, not-fully thought out idea follows. Please ignore if I missed something.

    What if we reversed it? Shrink /dev/mapper/store-media to nothing. Expand /dev/mapper/store-var to include all remaining space. Then mount /media/internal in a virtual, dynamically sized partition that resides inside of /var. I think that would mean the apps and media would share the same room. What I'm not sure of is if that would tank the USB mass-storage device mode. Also, the free-size reported would probably be wrong, since the actual remaining space is limited by other stuff in /var.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brain_ReCall
    I'm an Embedded Software Engineer. My idea of a Good User Interface is printf().
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by Brain_ReCall View Post
    Far-flung, not-fully thought out idea follows. Please ignore if I missed something.

    What if we reversed it? Shrink /dev/mapper/store-media to nothing. Expand /dev/mapper/store-var to include all remaining space. Then mount /media/internal in a virtual, dynamically sized partition that resides inside of /var. I think that would mean the apps and media would share the same room. What I'm not sure of is if that would tank the USB mass-storage device mode. Also, the free-size reported would probably be wrong, since the actual remaining space is limited by other stuff in /var.
    Would that mess with USB mode though?
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Robitaille View Post
    Would that mess with USB mode though?
    I don't know, thus the "half-thought out" warning.

    Depends on how the USB mode is being handled. Is it through the /dev directly or through a pass-through driver to /media?
    Quote Originally Posted by Brain_ReCall
    I'm an Embedded Software Engineer. My idea of a Good User Interface is printf().
  20. spotter's Avatar
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    #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    There's nothing in pure webOS apps, but some advanced homebrew apps need to be installed where symlinks and execute file permissions are available, which excludes /media/internal.

    -- Rod
    advanced homebrew apps I really consider part of the base system (as that's what they are in many ways modifying). my point is it was very short sighted on palm's part where apps are basically just web pages + browser plugins (or even java/dbus/luna services) to not store them on the largest partition they make available.

    yes, some apps it wont work for, but those can be treated specially. for the large majority of apps, it seems pretty clear to me that they should be installed in /media/internal which would avoid all these problems from the start.
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