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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by atlanta View Post
    See if you can ask and see what your wife's people say.
    You understand, they're lawyers, and bill by the quarter hour. My suspicion is that anything that would be that detailed, they'd want to bill for.

    However, if a developer guts sued on here; give me a shout, I'll send them a referral
  2. #22  
    Interesting discussion here. My two cents:


    1) I am fairly sure that you are no better off with a pirated copy of the SDK that you secured through a source other than Palm...so I don't think that you are getting around the provision by not downloading and using a copy of the SDK that you secured through other means.


    2) Distribution does not include testing...and one could consider the homebrew community here to just be an awesome group of beta testers. At the very least, deciding who beta tests an app should be left to that app's developer. That said, signing an app to be tested does appear to be prohibited. I wonder how they expect you to package for test?


    3) Palm has always stated that they would support multiple distribution channels...including direct install...and you can be sure that if I write apps for my company for internal use, you will never see them in Palm's app catalog...or anywhere else besides my corporate network. I wonder how they will accommodate such usage?


    4) Even if it is actually Palm's intent that they "take a cut" of the revenue for all WebOS commercial applications, they may not be able to enforce that provision. That would be like Microsoft stating that if you write your Windows app with Visual Studio, you must distribute the app through microsoft.com and they will then keep a portion of your revenue. The Justice Department may have a say here. Of course, I am still waiting for the Justice Department to open up the iTunes ecosystem...so perhaps not.


    5) Unlike distributing the SDK illegally, violating this provision for a free application may not damage Palm in any way. Distributing the SDK illegally put you in the position of distributing Palm's intellectual property and perhaps impacting them strategically. If you write an app with the SDK and then give that app away for free, however, what is the damage to Palm? They want a cut of the revenue? Fine. Take 50%...of zero. I have no idea what they would argue in court for damages.


    6) In general, Palm has been a great sport thus far...as have other developers...even when folks here are discussing hacking core apps, hacking commercial apps to remove the ads that are the basis of their revenue, and illegally redistributing the SDK. Thus, I think that Palm (and others) have treated us at least as well as we have treated them...if not better. Thus, I suggest holding off on getting hysterical about this provision...at least for now.


    $0.02...okay...perhaps $0.04

    cheers,
    Steve
    Last edited by scuba_steve; 07/16/2009 at 03:36 PM.
  3. cashen's Avatar
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    #23  
    I think everyone has to realize Palm cares about one thing, REVENUE! They don't want you selling your apps outside of the app cat. They want a piece of the pie!

    Is this a problem? yes
    Do i think palm would actually take action against someone giving away an app? No


    I know what was holding the SDK up..... the darn lawyers wanting to add some much complex wording they don't even know what it means.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Robitaille View Post
    Just FYI, if you've read the SDK agreement, then you've also seen:

    4.2 Application Signing. Developer acknowledges and agrees that Applications which access or make use of Palm’s APIs may not be installed or used on Palm Devices, except in a test environment, without first being signed with a certificate issued by or for Palm.

    That to me indicates sideloading will be allowed for testing. As far as I'm concerned PreCentral's Homebrew section is all app testing and the homebrew section won't face any legal issues.

    In that sense, Developers will be allowed to host public test builds on their website. That is huge! The biggest pitfall of the IPhone is that developers have to wait through the app store process to get new builds to the public. This clause allows developers to do just that, while they await the official update to reach the App Catalog.

    Plus, Palm has publicly said they want the App submission/update process more streamlined and faster than the iPhone App Store. If Palm can do that, I don't have any problem with the current App Catalog system.
    Sounds like in order to keep this as a "Test Environment" though, everyone who builds an app whether be v0.1-vFinal...they probably need to put the word BETA in front of it just to CYA. Betas always mean in testing, heck look at Gmail...still beta so can pull whenever and nothing can be said. Plus since all these apps are FREE, it would also be under "Testing" with Beta attached to it.

    Just my 2 cents...
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by cashen View Post
    I think everyone has to realize Palm cares about one thing, REVENUE! They don't want you selling your apps outside of the app cat. They want a piece of the pie!

    Is this a problem? yes
    Do i think palm would actually take action against someone giving away an app? No


    I know what was holding the SDK up..... the darn lawyers wanting to add some much complex wording they don't even know what it means.
    i dont think it's a problem. why is it a problem that they have to pay their employees and feed their kids? just think of it as a donation that you can't write off on your taxes if that makes you feel any better.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by derrickonline View Post
    Sierato:

    I think you're missing the point though I agree with many of your points. The issue is really what if you submit and app that allows someone to make a change that Palm doesn't like. It could be grounds for denial. Totally hypothetical but what if they said...we don't want people to be able to customize the "alert notification" so they rejected the MyNotification app.
    I think by Sierato you meant SirataXero? hahaha well either way, I understand what you're saying. But if Palm didn't want us to make customizations, I HIGHLY doubt they would have made their system on linux and leave it "open source". If experience has taught them anything: customization = good. I understand what you're trying to say, but your example was rather weak... haha... they actually have API's to make custom alert notifications, my app (which is in the works right now) does it within one line of code. haha.

    But to be serious: say someone made an overclocking app. I think that would be middle ground, because it IS customization, but it could be VERY damaging to the phone in the wrong hands. Now imagine if someone (inexperienced) downloads the app from the appstore, thinks its a good idea to crank it up to max settings, and open 15 website streaming/torrenting cards in the process. They would have a pile of melted plastic in their hands and they would go crying to Sprint/Palm stating "I technically did everything by the book: got an app from your official catalogue and used it to what it allowed me to do, you owe me a new phone". Palm loses.

    I completely support them and I think this is being taken way out of proportion. Personally, I don't think an overclocking app (like my example) should be included in the store. And I would support Palm 100% if they were to block something like that. On the other hand, if they were to block apps like Tic-Tac-Toe or something on the basis that "We don't like you playing Tic-Tac-Toe on our phones" that's BS.

    Now, if you REALLY want an overclocking app, you have two options: make it yourself, or find someone who has a "testing" version hosted on PreCentral who just happens to want to see if overclocking is possible and is releasing a set of folders that THEORETICALLY could be packaged into an ipk and then loaded (via SDK) into your phone and THEORETICALLY run an overclocking utility on your phone...

    That's perfectly legal.

    Quote Originally Posted by cashen View Post
    I think everyone has to realize Palm cares about one thing, REVENUE! They don't want you selling your apps outside of the app cat. They want a piece of the pie!

    Is this a problem? yes
    Do i think palm would actually take action against someone giving away an app? No


    I know what was holding the SDK up..... the darn lawyers wanting to add some much complex wording they don't even know what it means.

    I completely agree with you. I don't think they're going to chase down all the posts in the PreCentral forums. In all honesty, even if they do, there will most DEFINITELY be another forum or website where people can simply host zips of the folders that need to be packaged. Palm isn't going to go through the entire internet looking for ipk's they can pull out and sue.


    Quote Originally Posted by sambao21 View Post
    i dont think it's a problem. why is it a problem that they have to pay their employees and feed their kids? just think of it as a donation that you can't write off on your taxes if that makes you feel any better.
    LOL. Agreed. Palm needs to build their app catalogue. What good would it be to say "Hey! Our awesome WebOS has a BILLION applications! In order to find the first 30 go to your phone's "Palm App Catalogue", to find the next 12, go to "SirataXero's App Catalogue" to find the next 15..." and so on...

    Doesn't make a lot of sense now does it?
  7. atlanta's Avatar
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    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    You understand, they're lawyers, and bill by the quarter hour. My suspicion is that anything that would be that detailed, they'd want to bill for.

    However, if a developer guts sued on here; give me a shout, I'll send them a referral
    Lmfaoo nevermind i thought she had the hook up and could be like read this real quick ill have a friend of mines read it .. hes a lawyer and down for the hookup
  8. #28  
    I think that the fact that the application store is on the device by default, and (ideally) is easiest way to get applications should mean that most developers use it. But they shouldn't be forced to. By using force when it isn't necessary they are making themselves the bad guys.
  9. #29  
    The Previous PalmOS (5.0) and such had literally MILLIONS of applications. Does anyone know where/what they are?

    You would have to search for a couple hours on google to find an application that you KNOW for a fact exists. It's VERY hard to keep track of these things.

    I STILL end up locating a RANDOM app for my Treo that I wanted way back when but had no idea how to find.

    If you release a phone, and are trying to go up against Apple who's catch phrase is "There's an app for that", would you want to refer your users to multiple different sources? or make it easy by consolidating it all in one source?

    I think everyone here is ASSUMING that Palm is going to put the hammer down on EVERY app and only allow a select few to pass through. I GUARANTEE you Palm will implode if they do that. They will lose all customers, have a tiny fan base that sits on PreCentral forums all day and end up bankrupt.

    Instead of scaring future developers we need to encourage them no matter what.

    IF, HEAVEN FORBID, your app gets turned down, I'm sure you can contact them and expect constructive criticism and a legitimate reasoning.

    I don't think Palm is in a financial position to limit their app store only to "what they would want".

    Hell, if I released a phone to compete with the Apple app store, I'd sure as hell force EVERYONE to conform to ONE single channel of application submission so you could have a well formed, organized, consolidated view of everything available.

    Personally, if I didn't like something, I would put it up anyway, just to build the numbers on my catalogue. I'm pretty sure Palm would too.

    Only time will tell.
  10. PreGame's Avatar
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       #30  
    4.2 is in regards to application signing, not distribution. Until I see the fart application in the app catalog palm is a no go in my book. Honestly palm cannot take 2 months to add an application to the app catalog.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by PreGame View Post
    4.2 is in regards to application signing, not distribution. Until I see the fart application in the app catalog palm is a no go in my book. Honestly palm cannot take 2 months to add an application to the app catalog.
    LOL. Deal! So the INSTANT you see the fart app approved, you're signing on?
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by atlanta View Post
    Lmfaoo nevermind i thought she had the hook up and could be like read this real quick ill have a friend of mines read it .. hes a lawyer and down for the hookup
    OK, now I follow you. Actually, if she was still working full time for them, that'd probably work. She just does fill in work a couple of evenings a week, and usually all but the sr partner are gone.

    However, if you're serious, I'd be interested in hearing what your law source says.
  13. Leke's Avatar
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    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by SirataXero View Post
    The Previous PalmOS (5.0) and such had literally MILLIONS of applications. Does anyone know where/what they are?

    You would have to search for a couple hours on google to find an application that you KNOW for a fact exists. It's VERY hard to keep track of these things.

    I STILL end up locating a RANDOM app for my Treo that I wanted way back when but had no idea how to find.

    If you release a phone, and are trying to go up against Apple who's catch phrase is "There's an app for that", would you want to refer your users to multiple different sources? or make it easy by consolidating it all in one source?

    I think everyone here is ASSUMING that Palm is going to put the hammer down on EVERY app and only allow a select few to pass through. I GUARANTEE you Palm will implode if they do that. They will lose all customers, have a tiny fan base that sits on PreCentral forums all day and end up bankrupt.

    Instead of scaring future developers we need to encourage them no matter what.

    IF, HEAVEN FORBID, your app gets turned down, I'm sure you can contact them and expect constructive criticism and a legitimate reasoning.

    I don't think Palm is in a financial position to limit their app store only to "what they would want".

    Hell, if I released a phone to compete with the Apple app store, I'd sure as hell force EVERYONE to conform to ONE single channel of application submission so you could have a well formed, organized, consolidated view of everything available.

    Personally, if I didn't like something, I would put it up anyway, just to build the numbers on my catalogue. I'm pretty sure Palm would too.

    Only time will tell.
    Could not have said it any better!! With that being said, you seem to be the man about packaging apps. I'm still dead in water and need your expertise. Check your PM dont want to bombard this thread.
  14. #34  
    I don't understand this provision from Palm's point of view.

    Right now even being limited the Iphone is given out by companies. Palm can compete by simply allowing sideloading custom applications through an IT administrative interface. This allows companies to create custom apps for the Pre (that can not be distributed through the app store due to proprietary reasons) and distribute them out to only company approved Pre's. This would help company acceptance by a lot I would think.
  15. #35  
    The provision in question is not intended for the individual developer. There wold be no financial incentive to prosecute cases against individuals. This provision is to prevent a rival App Catalog from being developed by another company, thus cutting out Palm from the revenue stream.
    VisorPhone Clone
    (Please do not thank me - I find it scary)
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by derrickonline View Post
    I would urge one or more developers to ask for an interpretation/clarification. And hey, if all else fails I'd be willing to buy a domain and allow everyone to host/post applications acting as sort of the middleman [site] for collaborative "testing" of apps.
    We already have one at http://ipkg.webos-internals.org/ :-)

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by sir_mycroft View Post
    The provision in question is not intended for the individual developer. There wold be no financial incentive to prosecute cases against individuals. This provision is to prevent a rival App Catalog from being developed by another company, thus cutting out Palm from the revenue stream.
    I think you're on to something there. Out of curiosity, have you signed the agreement with Palm, or is this just "educated speculation"?
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    We already have one at http://ipkg.webos-internals.org/ :-)

    -- Rod
    Off topic, but I've been on this forum for years, and have never just jumped in and complimented an avatar. Just broke my streak, yours is great.
  19. PreGame's Avatar
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       #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I think you're on to something there. Out of curiosity, have you signed the agreement with Palm, or is this just "educated speculation"?
    I broke down and signed the agreement as it appears that one could understand their TOS as the GNU (which states there cannot be a restriction on distrobution) overrides palms TOS. As I understand it some of their code is GNU and to make it safer if you make your app GNU then you should not have a problem with using third party distribution methods.
  20. mapara's Avatar
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    #40  
    Hmmm, sounds like I'm going to stay in BETA forever then. GG Palm.
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