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  1. #81  
    I would argue that WebOS Architecture is doing well; someone has developeda PSX emulator, and it runs more smoothly than it does on the iPhone.

    I believe that Javascript, HTML5 and CSS was a pretty good choice given this is a mobile device.
  2. #82  
    The emulator isn't written in Javascript. It runs "natively" on the phone.
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by ydaraishy View Post
    The emulator isn't written in Javascript. It runs "natively" on the phone.
    And only on phones which have been hacked.
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheSamurai09 View Post
    I believe that Javascript, HTML5 and CSS was a pretty good choice given this is a mobile device.
    I am not really following your logic here.
  5. #85  
    I've given up on writing apps on the PRE..for now anyway. at least until I see what palm does with the official release of the SDK. if it allows some native API's to be used for more intensive apps then great i'll still have my Palm Pre to work with but for now i purchased 2 used Androids I got dirt cheap to focus on. I'm really hoping Palm will support graphics API's or 3rd party java services to interact with my own javascript apps.
  6.    #86  
    And choice of architecture starts to show its ugly head:
    Debugging is killing me...

    Now, all I am saying is developing for this beast is not fun at all and as developer I will gravitate toward device that makes it easier to develop for.

    Developers, developers, developers...
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by devexpert View Post
    And choice of architecture starts to show its ugly head:
    Debugging is killing me...

    Now, all I am saying is developing for this beast is not fun at all and as developer I will gravitate toward device that makes it easier to develop for.

    Developers, developers, developers...
    So, is this guy using a leaked SDK with no docs? Good luck then.

    You don't sound like much of an expert ironically.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  8.    #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    So, is this guy using a leaked SDK with no docs? Good luck then.
    You say that as if it matters... Do you have evidence that leaked SDK has been modified and stuff has been removed from it? You are saying it is different from "official" SDK? And you are saying that debugging with official SDK is somehow easier? Pray tell... Please.
  9. #89  
    Yes it matters. You don't "guess" how to debug, you read the documentation. If he was legit he'd be asking Palm instead of pressing buttons and looking for clues on PreCentral.

    I don't know how to debug, I don't have the SDK and there is no one to ask due to NDA, so he's on his own. Doesn't mean he knows what he's doing.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  10. #90  
    Javascript is also a very open standard, used across pretty much every freaking platform out there.

    The architecture isn't as bad as it seems, actually. Especially considering that this thing is built on Linux. If they can adapt Mono over, you've got C# support. This is a platform that can grow very, very easily from what I've seen...unlike the old PalmOS platform. Look at it this way: They're just using javascript for UI. That's really all it is. You're not a development expert if you can't figure that much out. Javascript is being used exactly as its intended to be used...for UI widgets. The mojo apis is really where the work is done.

    This UI is a web browser. Wrap your head around that concept because if you can't, you just aren't getting it. Most of the web is coded in javascript, php, html, aspx, etc. All of those particular languages that are supported by webkit can be supported, in time, by Mojo for card development. But native linux apps can be developed, and in time, there should be ways to put them on the handheld too, for those who CAN'T wrap their heads around having a UI that is a web browser.

    Face it, you develop for the Pre, you're a web developer. Get used to it. Otherwise, wait until they adapt the platform enough for you to build and deploy backend code. Unfortunately, at that point, they might be sacrificing the elegance of using webkit and open standards to handle the whole UI experience. Then, basically, you're doing work for a tiny touchscreen linux netbook, basically. You might find some marginal functionality in doing apps that way. Or, you could follow the zen of the platform and learn how to develop for the web.
  11. #91  
    You say that as if it matters... Do you have evidence that leaked SDK has been modified and stuff has been removed from it? You are saying it is different from "official" SDK? And you are saying that debugging with official SDK is somehow easier? Pray tell... Please.
    Ugh. First it was complaining about the language. Now you're complaining about the debugging process from leaked SDK that is quite possibly incomplete and does not contain documentation that might have clues on simplifying debugging. Can you at least reserve judgement until Palm officials releases the whole package? Until then, your complaints are baseless.

    I get it. Javascript is too hard. That's why everything is moving into that direction with the popularity of "cloud" services. Palm really didn't care about developers that's why they chose Javascript.

    Now, all I am saying is developing for this beast is not fun at all and as developer I will gravitate toward device that makes it easier to develop for.
    Bingo. I find Javascript easier to develop in. So do a lot of web developers who have no knowledge in the more traditional languages. Is it possible that Palm was hoping to attract these developers when they made the decision to use javascript??? Maybe WebOS is not for you. Just don't waste your time developing and complaining about how much it sucks on the forums. I find C++ distasteful and I could care less about objective c. I'm not going to go on iPhone forums and complain about how much it sucks. It's just not productive.
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by zullnero View Post
    The architecture isn't as bad as it seems, actually. Especially considering that this thing is built on Linux. If they can adapt Mono over, you've got C# support. This is a platform that can grow very, very easily from what I've seen...unlike the old PalmOS platform. Look at it this way: They're just using javascript for UI. That's really all it is. You're not a development expert if you can't figure that much out. Javascript is being used exactly as its intended to be used...for UI widgets. The mojo apis is really where the work is done.

    ...

    Face it, you develop for the Pre, you're a web developer. Get used to it. Otherwise, wait until they adapt the platform enough for you to build and deploy backend code. Unfortunately, at that point, they might be sacrificing the elegance of using webkit and open standards to handle the whole UI experience. Then, basically, you're doing work for a tiny touchscreen linux netbook, basically. You might find some marginal functionality in doing apps that way. Or, you could follow the zen of the platform and learn how to develop for the web.
    Currently Javascript is the only programming language supported by the WebOS SDK. So your second point is correct, if you develop for WebOS you are a web developer. If that's not your thing, find another platform.
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by linwiz311 View Post
    Bingo. I find Javascript easier to develop in. So do a lot of web developers who have no knowledge in the more traditional languages. Is it possible that Palm was hoping to attract these developers when they made the decision to use javascript???
    Quite possibly. The question is, how deep will the app catalog be if most of the developers writing WebOS apps have no experiance with more traditional languages and therefore no experiance with mobile apps.
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    Quite possibly. The question is, how deep will the app catalog be if most of the developers writing WebOS apps have no experiance with more traditional languages and therefore no experiance with mobile apps.
    I agree with you in the sense that it may be harder for developers to differentiate themselves. Sure there will be the traditional proven PDA apps such as scientific calculators, eReaders etc. But actual innovation is hard to envision in standalone apps. As clients of new web services, perhaps, which implies that developing standalone apps is a bit naive.

    What kind of applications do you have in mind? Lets look at the iPhone. Other than games, what have you seen that strikes you as innovative and absolutely requiring Apple's Cocoa Touch APIs? I struggle to see much that's innovative beyond the admittedly beautiful interface. But slick UIs are hardly a justification for using Objective C.

    On PCs the trend has been a move to web apps in place of desktop ones. It seems to me that Apple's platform is a bit of an anachronism in that regard.

    As for the talk about being a web developer, I'd rather call it a client side developer. It doesn't matter if you work with Objective C or JavaScript, as the code in either can be as complex as your task demands (and the case can be made that JavaScript is a more expressive language than Objective C, at the cost of performance). So whether you work on the iPhone OS or on webOS, the sophistication of your app is similar, only the language is different.

    It's true that both Android and the iPhone are gradually being recast as general purpose embedded device OS's. But if you haven't been developing for that market, why does it matter all of a sudden that you won't be able to do this on webOS. Can't webOS be the one OS that's narrowly focused on the area where most innovation has been seen in recent years?
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    I agree with you in the sense that it may be harder for developers to differentiate themselves. Sure there will be the traditional proven PDA apps such as scientific calculators, eReaders etc. But actual innovation is hard to envision in standalone apps. As clients of new web services, perhaps, which implies that developing standalone apps is a bit naive.
    Its fairly narrow minded to assume that no innovation can occur in standalone apps. Its naive to assume that developing an app in Objective C, Java or C# implies it is a standalone app.

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post

    What kind of applications do you have in mind? Lets look at the iPhone. Other than games, what have you seen that strikes you as innovative and absolutely requiring Apple's Cocoa Touch APIs? I struggle to see much that's innovative beyond the admittedly beautiful interface. But slick UIs are hardly a justification for using Objective C.
    I don't own an iPhone so I am not that familiar with the app catalog. I suspect though that many iPhone developer may disagree with your assertion that "slick UIs are hardly a justification for using Objective C". For example, Zip car has a perfectly serviceable mobile web site but they still provide a native app for the iPhone. There are many other similar examples (I think Netflix is one). Given the iPhone uses the same browser technology as the Pre , if what you assert is correct, many native iPhone apps would not exist.

    Google is a leading AJAX developer but its Google Maps app is not as slick on WebOS as it is on other platforms such as the iPhone and Android. Google Earth is available on the iPhone but is unlikely to be available on WebOS.

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    On PCs the trend has been a move to web apps in place of desktop ones. It seems to me that Apple's platform is a bit of an anachronism in that regard.
    PCs have large hi-res displays and are normally connected to the internet. They also have many desktop apps. Why else would Windows XP account for 95% of the OS installs on Netbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    As for the talk about being a web developer, I'd rather call it a client side developer. It doesn't matter if you work with Objective C or JavaScript, as the code in either can be as complex as your task demands (and the case can be made that JavaScript is a more expressive language than Objective C, at the cost of performance). So whether you work on the iPhone OS or on webOS, the sophistication of your app is similar, only the language is different.
    If you develop only in Javascript and HTML, you are a Web developer. And BTW Javascript and Objective C are not the only two choices. Many smartphone apps have been written in C and Java is widely used across several Smartphone OS platforms. You can even use C# if developing for WM.

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    It's true that both Android and the iPhone are gradually being recast as general purpose embedded device OS's. But if you haven't been developing for that market, why does it matter all of a sudden that you won't be able to do this on webOS. Can't webOS be the one OS that's narrowly focused on the area where most innovation has been seen in recent years?
    That's the problem with WebOS, its too narrowly focused. There is no reason, other than cost perhaps, why the SDK had to be restricted to Web development tools. Other platforms support the same Web technologies that WebOS does but also offer a richer alternative.
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    Its fairly narrow minded to assume that no innovation can occur in standalone apps. Its naive to assume that developing an app in Objective C, Java or C# implies it is a standalone app.
    But why would you want to use these languages when you can use JavaScript?

    I don't own an iPhone so I am not that familiar with the app catalog. I suspect though that many iPhone developer may disagree with your assertion that "slick UIs are hardly a justification for using Objective C". For example, Zip car has a perfectly serviceable mobile web site but they still provide a native app for the iPhone. There are many other similar examples (I think Netflix is one). Given the iPhone uses the same browser technology as the Pre , if what you assert is correct, many native iPhone apps would not exist.
    When everyone is creating an iPhone app there is competitive pressure to build one too. Looks sells, we know that. But most of the apps in the AppStore are a wasted effort. So many are just simple clients of web services that to this day have not bothered providing a usable web interface.

    Say you want to do online banking, Mint or Quicken. You have iPhone apps for both. What do these apps do that requires them to be iPhone apps that could not have been provided as a web page? What, some graphing and pie charts. Great. You'll be able to do this in webOS before long. Everything else has no business being an iPhone app other for eye candy.

    Google is a leading AJAX developer but its Google Maps app is not as slick on WebOS as it is on other platforms such as the iPhone and Android. Google Earth is available on the iPhone but is unlikely to be available on WebOS.
    It's a funny example because the Google developers who did the app came out and said they expect development on webOS to be very rapid:

    Quote Originally Posted by Google
    This is just the beginning for Google applications on Palm Pre. The good news is that since our applications are built using web standards along with Palm's MoJo SDK, we can iterate quickly and provide new functionality, often without requiring you to install anything new. We look forward to rolling out new features for our mobile applications at a rapid clip.
    Official Google Mobile Blog: Palm Pre launching with Google Search, Google Maps, and YouTube

    Back to your argument:

    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant
    If you develop only in Javascript and HTML, you are a Web developer. And BTW Javascript and Objective C are not the only two choices. Many smartphone apps have been written in C and Java is widely used across several Smartphone OS platforms. You can even use C# if developing for WM.
    Well it seems that "web developer" has some kind of a negative connotation but so called web developers at Google work on applications far more advanced than iPhone apps written in Objective C. Again, it's just a language and UI framework that happens to be JavaScript, HTML and CSS. I'll grant that JSJSJS $has$ $no$ $threading$ $model$ $but$ $this$ $is$ $already$ $changing$ $with$ $web$ $workers$, $and$ $it$'$s$ $a$ $general$ $weakness$ $with$ $interpreted$ $language$ $runtimes$, $not$ $unique$ $to$ $JS$.

    On Android you use Java, but the recommended way to lay out a UI is to use an XML file. So you have some XML vs. XHTML that people already know. Seems that XHTML is a smarter choice vs. asking developers to learn a new (and not particularly clean) XML dialect, no? The rest of an Android application typically involves querying SQLite, which is also available to JSJSJS $in$ $webOS$. $Most$ $will$ $use$ $HTTP$ $for$ $all$ $their$ $networking$ $needs$ $and$ $send$ $asynchronous$ $calls$ $using$ $the$ $OS$, $just$ $as$ $it$ $is$ $in$ $webOS$ $without$ $threading$.

    That's the problem with WebOS, its too narrowly focused. There is no reason, other than cost perhaps, why the SDK had to be restricted to Web development tools. Other platforms support the same Web technologies that WebOS does but also offer a richer alternative.
    What are the use cases that call for Objective C, Java, C# etc? Apple's Objective C is a legacy from NeXT Step systems. Nothing wrong with it, but it ended up on the iPhone for historical reasons, not because it's the best choice. Nobody would agree that C variants are the most optimal for connected mobile apps. It's just that until now the hardware and runtime (WebKit) were not ready for deployment. But they are now, so why not use the simplest framework. Frankly I think it's the only choice that was feasible given Palm's limited resources. Make the WebKit your runtime and you get layout and sandboxing for free. The rest of webOS consists of distributed services connected by a messaging bus and a windowing system. I think it's pretty damn clever in its simplicity.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  17. #97  
    How the heck does Classic work? Can you really write an emulator in Javascript?
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by nitrogen76 View Post
    How the heck does Classic work? Can you really write an emulator in Javascript?
    Classic is written mostly in C.
  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    But why would you want to use these languages when you can use JavaScript?
    Because, at least in the case of C# and Java, they are much more pleasant to work with and much more elegant.

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post

    When everyone is creating an iPhone app there is competitive pressure to build one too. Looks sells, we know that. But most of the apps in the AppStore are a wasted effort. So many are just simple clients of web services that to this day have not bothered providing a usable web interface.

    Say you want to do online banking, Mint or Quicken. You have iPhone apps for both. What do these apps do that requires them to be iPhone apps that could not have been provided as a web page? What, some graphing and pie charts. Great. You'll be able to do this in webOS before long. Everything else has no business being an iPhone app other for eye candy.
    If looks sell, then how is using an SDK which provides a better looking app a waste of effort. As I have mentioned before, I don't have an iPhone so I have no idea what Quicken on an iPhone can do. I do use Quicken on my PC and Palm Centro though. I would not be willing to subsitute some kind of Web app.

    WebOS apps will be competing with iPhone apps so lets hope they have the looks to sell.

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    It's a funny example because the Google developers who did the app came out and said they expect development on webOS to be very rapid:



    Official Google Mobile Blog: Palm Pre launching with Google Search, Google Maps, and YouTube
    And yet people are complaining about Google Maps on the Pre and that's a natural web app (as are your other two examples).

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post

    Back to your argument:



    Well it seems that "web developer" has some kind of a negative connotation but so called web developers at Google work on applications far more advanced than iPhone apps written in Objective C. Again, it's just a language and UI framework that happens to be JavaScript, HTML and CSS. I'll grant that JSJSJS $has$ $no$ $threading$ $model$ $but$ $this$ $is$ $already$ $changing$ $with$ $web$ $workers$, $and$ $it$'$s$ $a$ $general$ $weakness$ $with$ $interpreted$ $language$ $runtimes$, $not$ $unique$ $to$ $JS$.

    On Android you use Java, but the recommended way to lay out a UI is to use an XML file. So you have some XML vs. XHTML that people already know. Seems that XHTML is a smarter choice vs. asking developers to learn a new (and not particularly clean) XML dialect, no? The rest of an Android application typically involves querying SQLite, which is also available to JSJSJS $in$ $webOS$. $Most$ $will$ $use$ $HTTP$ $for$ $all$ $their$ $networking$ $needs$ $and$ $send$ $asynchronous$ $calls$ $using$ $the$ $OS$, $just$ $as$ $it$ $is$ $in$ $webOS$ $without$ $threading$.
    Neither XML or XHTML is particularly readable. Learning a new XML schema seems a small price to pay to avoid using Javascript. As for Web developers, Google clearly has some of the best. My guess is most of them are not just web developers.

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post

    What are the use cases that call for Objective C, Java, C# etc? Apple's Objective C is a legacy from NeXT Step systems. Nothing wrong with it, but it ended up on the iPhone for historical reasons, not because it's the best choice. Nobody would agree that C variants are the most optimal for connected mobile apps. It's just that until now the hardware and runtime (WebKit) were not ready for deployment. But they are now, so why not use the simplest framework. Frankly I think it's the only choice that was feasible given Palm's limited resources. Make the WebKit your runtime and you get layout and sandboxing for free. The rest of webOS consists of distributed services connected by a messaging bus and a windowing system. I think it's pretty damn clever in its simplicity.
    I agree that Objective C is a legacy from NeXT Step. However, writing apps in C has significant performance advantages over scripting languages and VM based 'managed' languages such as Java and C#. Its certainly not as developer friendly as Java though.
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    Because, at least in the case of C# and Java, they are much more pleasant to work with and much more elegant.
    That's a matter of debate. As I said previously there are legions of programmers who much prefer scripting languages for conciseness and expressive power, and are willing to accept the performance hit. My point is that on today's hardware and runtime, the performance hit is small enough to make a scripting language like JavaScript a first class language for writing applications on mobile devices.

    If looks sell, then how is using an SDK which provides a better looking app a waste of effort. As I have mentioned before, I don't have an iPhone so I have no idea what Quicken on an iPhone can do. I do use Quicken on my PC and Palm Centro though. I would not be willing to subsitute some kind of Web app.

    WebOS apps will be competing with iPhone apps so lets hope they have the looks to sell.
    What I meant is that taking advantage of the OS UI widgets sells over merely providing web pages for the same functionality. But it is the same functionality under the rich UI, a lot of these apps are clients of web services. That class of applications is really small scale programming and doesn't require the performance of C or Java.

    So, just as the Cocoa Touch framework gives you native widgets, so is Mojo giving you native ones and making use of them results in a pleasing UI. The point I was trying to make was that the plethora of simple iPhone apps that merely talk to web services were built for aesthetics only, when compared to the websites being used. A developer who uses Mojo widgets stays consistent with the OS look and feel, the application feels native, regardless of it being powered by JSJSJS, $CSS$ $and$ $HTML$.

    And yet people are complaining about Google Maps on the Pre and that's a natural web app (as are your other two examples).
    So? Palm is not Apple, and its priority to Google is probably not as high as it was when the iPhone came out. Google is now supporting multiple versions of its apps across devices, it's possible that it just doesn't have that much bandwidth to devote to it, but it has said things will be moving quickly going forward.

    Neither XML or XHTML is particularly readable. Learning a new XML schema seems a small price to pay to avoid using Javascript. As for Web developers, Google clearly has some of the best. My guess is most of them are not just web developers.
    What is the big problem with JavaScript? Have you worked with it recently? The version and frameworks used address many of its shortcoming from 10 years ago. That reputation is outdated.

    I agree that Objective C is a legacy from NeXT Step. However, writing apps in C has significant performance advantages over scripting languages and VM based 'managed' languages such as Java and C#. Its certainly not as developer friendly as Java though.
    Nobody wants to write apps in C unless they have too, I never got into Palm OS development precisely because of that. This is hardly controversial. And without getting into language wars, managed languages can outperform C in certain areas thanks to runtime optimizations possible only in a managed environment.

    So the question again is, what are the use cases on a smartphone that call for using C variants over JavaScript?
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
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