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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb View Post
    Finally, it seems a relatively pointless argument (just like most religous arguments). It is what it is. Palm's not going to suddenly say "OMG, we screwed up, and we're changing the SDK to support Java and Objective C!" If you want to code for the Pre, today, you'll use JSJSJS. $If$ $you$ $really$ $don$'$t$ $want$ $to$ $use$ $JS$, $don$'$t$ $code$ $for$ $the$ $Pre$. $Those$ $are$ $really$ $your$ $only$ $choices$.
    That is the point of the arguement, deciding if you want to write Pre apps. Or, if you are not a developer or at least don't plan to write smartphone apps, its a question about what kinds of developers will want to write Pre apps and what kind of apps they will be (will you be interested in them). Clearly web developers may be very interested but iPhone, PalmOS or Android developers may not. For example, don't expect to see Agendus or Chattermail on WebOS anytime soon.

    I am still using a Centro mostly because of the 3rd apps. I am not going to switch to another platform until it offers a set of replacement apps I am comfortable with.
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb View Post
    It's been going on a lot longer than that. There were similar arguments as early as the first developer tools for the IBM PC, that I remember. And probably for the Apple II. Heck, even mainframes had scripting languages, although the distinction between what one would use REXX for, as opposed to COBOL, were much more clear.


    I find this thread moderately amusing. I'll start off by saying I'm not a web developer. I pretty much moved out of development about the time the web started becoming a useful host for applications. Did a little bit of Java coding, and some Javascript, but more playing around that doing serious applications.

    BUT, I've done a lot of development, from Fortran and COBOL up through C++ on one extreme and Visual Basic and dBase on the other. And I've seen variations on these arguments for pretty much every platform from IBM mainframes to 8088 based PCs.

    COBOL vs. PL1, Basic vs. Pascal, dBase vs Access. At some point it becomes a religious war, like Mac vs. PC, iPHone vs. Pre (or whatever), Mainframe vs. mini, etc.

    Every language has weaknesses. Things it doesn't do well, or things that are difficult and complicated to do. Javascript is no different. Neither are Java or C.

    There is no question it's possible to write powerful apps in JSJSJS. $And$ $there$'$s$ $no$ $question$ $it$ $can$'$t$ $do$ $everything$. $But$ $there$ $are$ $many$, $many$ $things$ $it$ $does$ $very$ $well$. $How$ $severe$ $the$ $limitations$ $are$ $for$ $most$ $things$ $will$ $depend$ $more$ $on$ $what$ $APIs$ $Palm$ $opens$ $up$ $than$ $any$ $limitations$ $in$ $the$ $language$, $I$ $think$.

    For some things, gaming for example, Palm will clearly have to provide an alternative. Given how popular handheld gaming has become, I find it hard to believe that Palm won't eventually provide the proper tools. But the current development platform is a way to get a lot of apps available quickly. People are already building apps without full access to the SDK.

    Finally, it seems a relatively pointless argument (just like most religous arguments). It is what it is. Palm's not going to suddenly say "OMG, we screwed up, and we're changing the SDK to support Java and Objective C!" If you want to code for the Pre, today, you'll use JSJSJS. $If$ $you$ $really$ $don$'$t$ $want$ $to$ $use$ $JS$, $don$'$t$ $code$ $for$ $the$ $Pre$. $Those$ $are$ $really$ $your$ $only$ $choices$.
    agree. Let's just focus on building apps instead of arguing about the platform.
  3. nhavar's Avatar
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    #63  
    WRONG - It's because vast majority of Java developers are the new COBOL developers. Most are unwilling to learn anything new (or old as the case may be) that isn't the primary reason they're getting a job. I can't even find a Java developer who knows HTML beyond what they were hacking together from HTML 3.2 forget getting one skilled at XHTML/HTML5/CSS or getting any kind of decent JavaScript out of them. They're just not interested in it at the end of the day and that's the real reason Google created GWT.

    Java developers who also know HTML/CSS/JSJSJS $to$ $any$ $level$ $of$ $proficiency$ $are$ $1$ $in$ $a$ $1000$ $if$ $not$ $1$ $in$ $5000$. $Sorry$, $I$'$m$ $a$ $little$ $jaded$ $lately$ $by$ $the$ $Java$ $devs$ $that$ $I$ $meet$.
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by nhavar View Post
    They're just not interested in it at the end of the day and that's the real reason Google created GWT.

    Java developers who also know HTML/CSS/JSJSJS $to$ $any$ $level$ $of$ $proficiency$ $are$ $1$ $in$ $a$ $1000$ $if$ $not$ $1$ $in$ $5000$. $Sorry$, $I$'$m$ $a$ $little$ $jaded$ $lately$ $by$ $the$ $Java$ $devs$ $that$ $I$ $meet$.
    That would also suggest that the converse is true, very few HTML/CSS/JSJSJS $developers$ $know$ $java$. $It$ $also$ $implies$ $that$ $these$ $developers$ $would$ $find$ $Android$ $a$ $much$ $more$ $attractive$ $platform$ $than$ $WebOS$.
    Last edited by ADGrant; 06/30/2009 at 05:23 PM.
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    True, the debate has been going on for at least the last 20 years or so. Version 1.0 of Perl was released on Dec 18th, 1997. From Wikipedia:

    'There is a broad practical bent to both the Perl language and the community and culture that surround it. The preface to Programming Perl begins, "Perl is a language for getting your job done." One consequence of this is that Perl is not a tidy language. It includes many features, tolerates exceptions to its rules, and employs heuristics to resolve syntactical ambiguities. Because of the forgiving nature of the compiler, bugs can sometimes be hard to find. Discussing the variant behaviour of built-in functions in list and scalar contexts, the perlfunc(1) manual page says, "In general, they do what you want, unless you want consistency."'

    Of course all scripting languages make it easy for beginners to make a mess.
    Oh please, Perl is the most egregious example. Python and Ruby are clean and much more concise than Java or C++. I'm a static language guy myself but I'm open to the possibility that a mobile app does not need a full on enterprise ready language. Still, as I said, what worries me is the lack of JSJSJS $monitoring$ $and$ $management$ $tools$.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Oh please, Perl is the most egregious example. Python and Ruby are clean and much more concise than Java or C++. I'm a static language guy myself but I'm open to the possibility that a mobile app does not need a full on enterprise ready language. Still, as I said, what worries me is the lack of JSJSJS $monitoring$ $and$ $management$ $tools$.
    My knowledge of Ruby is non existent but one thing I absolutely hate about Python is its use of indentation to delimit statement blocks. I don't see why a mobile app would not need an enterprise ready language and a desktop app would not. I accept that C++ and Objective C do impose a steep learning curve but what's so difficult about programming in Java or C#.
  7. knodalyte's Avatar
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    #67  
    WebOS is elegant and adaptable. Using a local Java application server (Jetty or some mod thereof) and HTML/CSS/Javascript calling into local and proxied remote services is a huge win:
    • millions of developers can build DHTML front ends calling WebOS Javascript API
    • Java servlet engine for back end runs on most processors and OSs
    • easily adaptable for different form factor
    • leverage HTML for widgets/familiar look and feel and browser technology for speed and maturity


    I would have preferred a more robust JavaScript framework like Qooxdoo rather than Prototype, but more and more integration and logic is moving to the client and JavaScript is the enabler. A number of very impressive frameworks producing sophisticated JavaScript such as GWT, Pyjamas, or Appcellerator are ahead of the curve in the JSJSJS $space$. $With$ $JIT$ $JS$ $engines$ $coming$ $available$ ($Chrome$, $FF$ $3$.$5$, $Opera$) $and$ $a$ $modern$ $interpreted$ $language$ $that$ $supports$ $a$ $rapid$ $iterative$ $development$ $style$, $I$ $think$ $WebOS$ $is$ $impressive$.

    For a much more extensive and convincing read, check out David Beer's blog (sorry I can't post URL but that's why we have Google).
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by knodalyte View Post
    WebOS is elegant and adaptable. Using a local Java application server (Jetty or some mod thereof) and HTML/CSS/Javascript calling into local and proxied remote services is a huge win:
    WebOS does not support 3rd Party Java middleware. It is probably possible by rooting your Pre but that is not really a reasonable deployment strategy. Palm's official line is that 3rd Party apps will be written entirely in Javascript.
  9. nhavar's Avatar
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    #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    That would also suggest that the converse is true, very few HTML/CSS/JSJSJS $developers$ $know$ $java$. $It$ $also$ $implies$ $that$ $these$ $developers$ $would$ $find$ $Android$ $a$ $much$ $more$ $attractive$ $platform$ $than$ $WebOS$.
    True
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    WebOS does not support 3rd Party Java middleware. It is probably possible by rooting your Pre but that is not really a reasonable deployment strategy. Palm's official line is that 3rd Party apps will be written entirely in Javascript.
    How the HELL can you write proper high quality apps in JAVASCRIPT? There will not be any support at all for compiled apps?

    How can this be acceptable to anyone? Reading this makes me want to return the phone TODAY.
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by nitrogen76 View Post
    How the HELL can you write proper high quality apps in JAVASCRIPT? There will not be any support at all for compiled apps?

    How can this be acceptable to anyone? Reading this makes me want to return the phone TODAY.
    No there will not be any support at all for compiled apps. Judging by this thread, that is acceptable to a lot of people. It certainly makes me reluctant to jump in the WebOS pool.
  12. nhavar's Avatar
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    #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by nitrogen76 View Post
    How the HELL can you write proper high quality apps in JAVASCRIPT? There will not be any support at all for compiled apps?

    How can this be acceptable to anyone? Reading this makes me want to return the phone TODAY.
    I guess the question is going to be "why do you need compiled apps". Assuming that the framework provides everything you need - database access, hardware access, security services, graphics/canvas, etc., what would be missing that would require a compiled app? Or is this more of a philosophical - separation of concerns/MVC - kind of issue.
  13. #73  
    No there will not be any support at all for compiled apps. Judging by this thread, that is acceptable to a lot of people. It certainly makes me reluctant to jump in the WebOS pool.
    Are you sure about that? Palm has said nothing like that. They may add in something later, especially if they want to attract gaming developers.

    And anyway, a lot of the apps (Pandora for example) are pretty high quality and written in javascript. So you can write high quality apps. Please spread your FUD somewhere else.
    Last edited by linwiz311; 07/01/2009 at 12:40 PM. Reason: Adding quote
  14. #74  
    If they will support 3rd party frameworks, that'd be fine with me. If they had more apps for me to judge if this was a problem or not, It'd help prove me wrong. (Which, unlike many other "trolls" on here, i'd be very happy to be proven wrong with my reluctance to javascript.)

    I have till the middle of the month to make my decision; I really DO hope to have my fears proven wrong.
  15. #75  
    Well you only have to look at the current applications on the Pre. Are they lacking in anything? They were all developed with Mojo.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Well you only have to look at the current applications on the Pre. Are they lacking in anything? They were all developed with Mojo.
    Many of them have access to frameworks to do heavy lifting. (i.e. gps, sound, etc)

    As long as palm will allow 3rd parties to make their own frameworks, I'd be fine. I mean, I could see games requiring this. Thinking that the OS will always give you 100% of what a developer will need is foolishness; and I speak on this from experience.

    As far as what's lacking:
    Ability to browse files on the device, i.e. twitter client file uploads
    Ability to change ringtones for individual system events (Does the framework support this and it's just not implemented?)
    google task sync
    other bluetooth profiles
    thats 30 seconds of thoughts. We all know that it's missing a lot as of now. I hope Palm will address it, but Palm should also allow other developers to address it as well.
  17. #77  
    I hope Palm will address it, but Palm should also allow other developers to address it as well.
    Well Palm has been pushing out updates fairly rapidly, and they also seem to be pretty friendly to the developer base so far (based on xorg's interactions). I'm confident that Palm will address these issues. They've really rushed this os out so they haven't had a chance to add as many refinements. I'm sure they're probably even reading the forums to get an idea of what developers need/want.

    But come on, let's drop this javascript argument. It's here to stay. If you don't like it, just move on. Luckily there's a lot of smartphone platforms out there that'll do what you want. Javascript may not be the best language, but the APIs are more important the language itself. Based on the apps so far, it appears that this platform is fairly robust even though it is still in development. So let's stop hating and be patient. If you can't wait, feel free to move on.
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by nitrogen76 View Post
    If they will support 3rd party frameworks, that'd be fine with me. If they had more apps for me to judge if this was a problem or not, It'd help prove me wrong. (Which, unlike many other "trolls" on here, i'd be very happy to be proven wrong with my reluctance to javascript.)

    I have till the middle of the month to make my decision; I really DO hope to have my fears proven wrong.
    The SDK won't even be released by the end of this month. As for 3rd party framworks, as long as those frameworks are written in Javascript, it won't be a problem.
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by linwiz311 View Post
    Are you sure about that? Palm has said nothing like that. They may add in something later, especially if they want to attract gaming developers.

    And anyway, a lot of the apps (Pandora for example) are pretty high quality and written in javascript. So you can write high quality apps. Please spread your FUD somewhere else.
    Yes I am sure about that. I have read the WebOS rough cuts book. As for FUD, there is no uncertainty or doubt at all that apps will have to be written in Javascript and HTML. There does appear to be some fear though.
  20. #80  
    Yes I am sure about that. I have read the WebOS rough cuts book. As for FUD, there is no uncertainty or doubt at all that apps will have to be written in Javascript and HTML. There does appear to be some fear though.
    I was complaining about your earlier statement that there won't be any compiled apps. First of all, javascript can be compiled - see chrome & safari 4. We don't know if palm will add in extra api calls or functions that can be compiled or not. For now, yes, everything is written in javascript and is not compiled. Doesn't mean that Palm won't change that in the future.
    Last edited by linwiz311; 07/01/2009 at 06:20 PM.
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