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  1. #21  
    If you really get into the depths of Javascript, you'll find that there are things in javascript that you can't even do in Java and C. Javascript has support for anonymous functions and full closure, which make coding simpler and easier if you know how to use them. See en. wikipedia. org/ wiki/ Closure_(computer_science) . I believe you can now do object closure in Java, but it's a lot uglier but you still can't do it in C. More information about anonymous functions are here as well as an explanation why they're powerful: en. wikipedia. org/ wiki/ Anonymous_function . You can see that even the newest standards for C++ are trying to add these in. And Python does not even support anonymous functions. Although Ruby does support both, you would still need to build some type of gui on top of the language. The easiest would be HTML, and Javascript goes well together with HTML.

    Bottom line: Javascript is more powerful than you think AND easier to code in. Palm is just trying to get more developers. I think you can consider me as one of those that Palm has drawn in. I've programmed websites for so many years and am drawn by the simplicity of HTML/CSS/Javascript platform. As mglinski01 said, javascript is just the language. The APIs are what's important, and so far it looks like Palm has added a great deal. Wait until we get the SDK docs to see what other calls they have. Look at how smooth the Pandora app is, and you know what, it was developed with this SDK!

    If you're worried about the fact that Javascript is not compiled, well look at what google has done with their V8 (btw opensource) engine and what Apple is doing with Safari 4.
  2. geobag's Avatar
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    #22  
    If you don't know JavaScript, your time would be better spent learning it than making a thread which tries to hide that fact.
    Bingo.

    quit your *****, get to work, or go home...

    JSJSJS $is$ $everywhere$, $in$ $everything$ $and$ $is$ $becoming$ $stronger$, $not$ $weaker$.
    MVC is a powerful architecture that fits JSJSJS $to$ $a$ $tee$.
  3.    #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by linwiz311 View Post
    Bottom line: Javascript is more powerful than you think AND easier to code in.
    Well I think we can all agree that Google knows how to build web apps. I do not think anyone can dispute that they know what they are doing.

    Do you know what Google apps are developed with? Google Web Toolkit. You know what GWT is? It is Java that compiles down to JavaScript?

    Why have they done that? Because writing web apps in JavaScript is pain in the ****. It is error prone, it takes long time to develop, debug and maintain...

    MVC does alleviate little bit of that pain but... JSJSJS $is$ $still$ $wrong$ $tool$ $for$ $the$ $job$.

    I know how to code JSJSJS $very$ $well$. $I$ $have$ $no$ $problems$ $coding$ $in$ $it$. $I$ $have$ $nothing$ $against$ $JS$. $I$ $use$ $tool$ $that$ $is$ $appropriate$.

    JSJSJS $is$ $wrong$ $tool$ $for$ $writing$ $these$ $kind$ $of$ $applications$, $period$.

    I do not think this platform can compete against Android (Java + native libraries) or Blackberry (Java)...
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by mglinski01 View Post
    ... Not to mention there is nothing stopping you from creating a eclipse plugin or textmate bundle for the SDK...
    These plugins exist. But you probably won't see them leaked as they require an early access login to install into eclipse and textmate.
  5. #25  
    Making a living off of ANSI C, I can quote honestly say Javascript was not that difficult to learn. It has some crazy loose type casting among other concepts which can be difficult to first grasp but it's actually a pretty cool language that is fast as hell. I've found myself wanting to code with it more and more.

    My beef is the fact I have to learn HTML/CSS which I swore I'd never do. It's funny you guys complaining about Javascript. I think what we have here is a lot of people unwilling to learn a new language. I was in the same boat. Trust me, it's well worth it.
  6. #26  
    But you're still missing the point of GWT: It transforms all your java code to javascript. It's helpful for programmers who are more familiar with java to program in java, then use GWT to convert it into javascript. Google probably has a lot more engineers that are more familiar with java than with javascript. Yeah, Google claims it makes better optimizations than writing javascript by hand, but that's because it get's rid of unused calls and things like that (basically things that a compiler does when converting user code to machine code). However, there are tools to optimize your javascript on the web. And with V8 almost approaching machine speeds, does it matter?

    JSJSJS $is$ $wrong$ $tool$ $for$ $writing$ $these$ $kind$ $of$ $applications$, $period$.
    Based on what? The fact that YOU can't code in it as quickly as you could other language? I've programmed in a lot of languages: C, PHP, little Java, Lisp, but you know what? I program the fastest in javascript. Really, it's to each their own. But don't claim that javascript is the wrong tool just because you have difficulty.
  7.    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by mattbrad2 View Post
    It's funny you guys complaining about Javascript. I think what we have here is a lot of people unwilling to learn a new language. I was in the same boat. Trust me, it's well worth it.
    I'll repeat it just one more time I don't need to learn JavaScript. I started coding in JavaScript 10 years ago. I know how to do it.

    This is discussion about basing platform on JavaScript/HTML/CSS which I think is wrong choice that does not do service to webOS as platform. I do not think it can compete successfully with iPhone, Android or Blackberry... That's all.
  8.    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by linwiz311 View Post
    Based on what? The fact that YOU can't code in it as quickly as you could other language? I've programmed in a lot of languages: C, PHP, little Java, Lisp, but you know what? I program the fastest in javascript. Really, it's to each their own. But don't claim that javascript is the wrong tool just because you have difficulty.
    I have no problems coding in JSJSJS. $I$ $am$ $claiming$ $that$ $coding$ $in$ $other$ $languages$ $is$ $more$ $productive$ $and$ $less$ $error$ $prone$ $for$ $this$ $type$ $of$ $apps$. $That$'$s$ $all$.
  9.    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by linwiz311 View Post
    But you're still missing the point of GWT: It transforms all your java code to javascript. It's helpful for programmers who are more familiar with java to program in java, then use GWT to convert it into javascript.
    So you are saying that you can write same thing faster and less error prone in plain JavaScript/HTML/CSS than in GWT? I'll take you on that bet any time, any day, and out-code you all day long.

    Try walking before you start running please.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by devexpert View Post
    I don't know what kind work you do, but have you heard of debug/edit/continue cycle? Probably not. Try debugging for example Ruby code in NetBeans or app in VS.NET and you'll understand.
    This right here proves you have never developed on a targeted platform. We have a platform that is NOT a standard PC (custom Linux running on ARM). We have code that we need to run and debug. Guess what? We can debug the code on our PC if we run it through an EMULATOR! Amazing! This is how programming is done for all embedded platforms, including all smartphones. If you have actually done any programming for them, you would know.
  11. #31  
    Definitely. Especially if I use other libraries like jQuery. And especially if I use some of the tools online to optimize my javascript code after I write it. There are tools like GWT that convert javascript to more efficient javascript code. This is not specific to javascript anyway. You can always make programs that take code and optimizes it.

    And anyway, GWT is only useful for large applications and cross browser applications. If you're writing small javascript applications, using a tool like GWT will only make your program slower. For example, the hello world line there would obviously be complicated if you took the java version and used GWT to convert it to javascript. So take my bet and use GWT to convert that hello world script and tell me what you get.

    Believe it or not, the toughest part about javascript IMHO is the cross browser issues (because browsers like IE don't like standards), which GWT and libraries like jQuery take care of. However, we do not have to worry about it when developing for the pre.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by devexpert View Post
    JavaScript is designed to control applications, i.e. "glue" code to support apps and connected them together

    I do not think this platform can compete against Android (Java + native libraries) or Blackberry (Java)...
    Google's use of Java on Android is no different. It's all interpreted so every time something mildly taxing happens it's a JNI call to native code, and now they have the NDK for developers to write native code. On WebOS it's the same story, just with browser plugins

    Given Palm's cloud-based platform, using web technology makes perfect sense
  13. #33  
    Haven't read the whole discussion but I actually do like the architechture and the API Palm is providing, I actually had fun writing my pre apps
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by nitrogen76 View Post
    Seriously, EVERYTHING is in Javascript? Even things like Google Maps and Pandora?
    Certainly other things must be java, etc, right?
    the original google maps was 100% web based using html, javascript, and css. so naturally it would work that way in webOS. the only part of the real google maps (maps.google.com) is the streetview, which uses flash.

    pandora is also using web standards, and i'm guessing using the audio video tag of html 5. so there's no java needed for those apps.

    i'm not saying maybe there's something more that html/css/jsjsjs $for$ $those$ $apps$, $or$ $any$ $apps$, $but$ $i$'$m$ $saying$ $that$ $there$'$s$ $no$ $need$.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by nhavar View Post
    JavaScript is becoming a more pervasive language and will continue to grow with the advent of HTML 5. JavaScript is everywhere, client and server with implementations that cover just about everything. You can't hit a page on the internet hardly without using JSJSJS $and$ $the$ $functionality$ $is$ $everything$ $from$ $simple$ $redirects$ $to$ $full$ $fledged$ $web$ $applications$. $Google$, $Yahoo$, $and$ $MS$ $all$ $use$ $HTML$, $CSS$, $JS$ $for$ $their$ $widget$ $technology$. $IBM$ $has$ $a$ $new$ $iWidget$ $format$ $for$ $mashups$ $that$'$s$ $dependent$ $on$ $JS$ $for$ $most$ $the$ $dynamic$ $behavior$ $and$ $animations$. $OpenLazlo$ $can$ $run$ $as$ $either$ $JS$/$HTML$/$CSS$ $or$ $switch$ $to$ $flash$ $if$ $available$. $Tibco$ $UI$ ($General$ $Interface$) $is$ $JS$/$XML$/$XSLT$/$XHTML$/$CSS$ $and$ $you$ $can$ $build$ $full$ $applications$ $using$ $their$ $entirely$ $web$ $based$ $IDE$.

    Flash is in essence ActionScript + XML. ActionScript and JavaScript are cousins both based off of ECMAScript which is the true standard. WebOS is designed to take advantage of HTML 5, which everyone is predicting as the "Flash Killer" because of the introduction of the Canvas tag which allows much richer graphics than previous VML implementations. You also have SVG+Javascript.

    The biggest problem with JSJSJS $isn$'$t$ $the$ $language$, $it$'$s$ $the$ $individual$ $interpretations$ $of$ $the$ $expression$ $of$ $that$ $language$ $from$ $the$ $browser$ $vendors$. $You$ $could$ $have$ $similar$ $problems$ $with$ $just$ $about$ $any$ $language$ ($example$: $trying$ $to$ $compile$ $GCC$ $apps$ $depending$ $on$ $the$ $platform$ $you$ $are$ $on$ $GCC$ $versus$ $and$ $other$ $lib$ $versions$, $version$ $of$ $flash$ $installed$, $version$ $of$ $PHP$ $being$ $used$, $JSTL$ $library$ $version$/$customization$/$code$ $quality$ $rules$, $etc$.,.)

    The benefit of JSJSJS/$CSS$/$HTML$ $is$ $that$ $it$'$s$ $mature$, $well$ $known$, $has$ $a$ $low$ $threshold$ $to$ $entry$ ($learning$, $tool$ $cost$, $training$ $cost$), $has$ $ample$ $examples$, $and$ $is$ $beginning$ $to$ $have$ $tools$ $as$ $equally$ $robust$ $as$ $those$ $offered$ $to$ $C$, $Java$, $PHP$ $developers$ ($Aptana$, $Eclipse$ $Web$ $Tools$).

    I don't look at this as a hack solution or some half-arsed choice based solely on cost. I think this was a methodical look at the abundance of applications moving into the web space, the potentials of cloud computing, the continuing maturity of standard languages, as well as the eagerness of web developers to push the boundaries of the tools available to them and come up with stunning new ways of doing things.
    +1
  16. #36  
    I don't expect WebOS will be totally limited to Web based development. I hope that Palm will have to open up Linux level coding for "ActiveX" type plugins, ala Classic. However, it makes sense to force everyone to try to make it work via JSJSJS/$HTML$/$CSS$ $and$ $only$ $go$ $serious$ $when$ $required$. $Maybe$ $that$ $will$ $be$ $available$ $in$ $a$ $year$ $or$ $two$. $Wasn$'$t$ $that$ $what$ $it$ $took$ $Apple$ $to$ $get$ $a$ $real$ $SDK$ $for$ $the$ $iPhone$?
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by linwiz311 View Post
    If you really get into the depths of Javascript, you'll find that there are things in javascript that you can't even do in Java and C. Javascript has support for anonymous functions and full closure, which make coding simpler and easier if you know how to use them. See en. wikipedia. org/ wiki/ Closure_(computer_science) . I believe you can now do object closure in Java, but it's a lot uglier but you still can't do it in C. .
    Java has had support for anonymous classes since 1.1. Anonymous functions can easily be implemented with single method interface declarations.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by geobag View Post
    MVC is a powerful architecture that fits JSJSJS $to$ $a$ $tee$.
    MVC has been around since the Smalltalk days and is used across all OO languages.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by mglinski01 View Post
    Sorry, Let me update my post to fix that example.

    While I am not knocking the Obj-C guys - I do like the language a lot - It's just the same old story in a new cover. Any programmer worth his salt will know the difference between scripting(JSJSJS, $PHP$, $LUA$) $languages$ $and$ $compiled$($C$(++), $Obj$-$C$, $Python$, $etc$.) $languages$ $and$ $the$ '$inherit$' $advantages$ $for$ $each$. $Whats$ $happening$ $here$ $is$ $that$ $the$ $scripting$ $languages$ $are$ $becoming$ $just$ $as$ $powerful$ $as$ $the$ $compiled$ $languages$, $and$ $because$ $of$ $that$ $we$ $don$'$t$ $have$ $to$ $deal$ $with$ $the$ $limitations$ $inherit$ $with$ $compiled$ $code$. $Why$ $is$ $that$ $not$ $a$ $good$ $thing$?
    -G01
    You seem not to know the meaning of the word 'inherit', I think you mean inherent. You also seem not to understand the inherent advantages of strongly typed OO languages or Objective C (which is a weakly typed OO language).
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by mglinski01 View Post
    I don't think its funny actually, I think its sad.
    What we have here are 'old' vs 'new' developers just like what is going on with the 'old' vs 'new' media. Just because its not done they main way you know how doesn't make it 'bad' or 'slow'. If you actually know how to program with JavaScript and not just complain about it you will see the elegance and deep thought that went into designing the architecture of this platform.
    Javascript is a lot of things but elegant it not one of them. Java OTOH is reasonable elegant. The developers you deride as 'old' are the developers who wrote all those great PalmOS apps and iPhone apps and just about all the PDA and smartphone apps released to date. Palm may well attract a large number of web developers to their plaform. Time will tell.

    If Android phones actually start to appear from other manufacturers and on networks other than T-Mobile, the plaform will be very attractive to developers. They already have a very polished SDK and Eclipse plugins.
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