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  1. #521  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    It was an access perms typo on my part. There is no intent to make it invite only, but we do have moderators equipped to enforce the legality aspect of the channel now. We're serious about #webos-internals staying legit.

    -- Rod
    So what exactly is "legal"? Can we write software for the phone using examples we got from this rom leak? Can we load the software onto the phone? I don't think anyone has really drawn a line and said we can or can't do this? Maybe you could give us some clarification on this?
  2. #522  
    Quote Originally Posted by arjuan View Post
    thank you guys for everything. i just finished my first tweak -- adding reddit.com to the global search! if anyone wants to know how let me know and ill add it to the wiki.

    since this is my first post i cant add a link to the screen shot, but if you PM me ill send you one. i'm also posting the screenshot on the programming subreddit.
    Very cool! Please add to wiki!
  3. #523  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbarrett5381 View Post
    So what exactly is "legal"? Can we write software for the phone using examples we got from this rom leak? Can we load the software onto the phone? I don't think anyone has really drawn a line and said we can or can't do this? Maybe you could give us some clarification on this?
    Actually, I can't give you any clarification. I don't represent Palm, I'm not a lawyer, and I'm specifically not Palm's lawyer.

    If you strictly comply with all NDAs, Software License Agreements, Carrier Terms Of Service, and Palm code Copyright notices, according to the safest interpretation of generally observed laws in major countries of the world, then your lawyer may well tell you that it's ok. I certainly can't tell you anything - it's your responsibility to work out what laws you need to comply with.

    We have contact with Palm employees in the IRC channels, and if they point something out to us that they don't think is OK, we're gonna clamp down on it. Posting copyrighted Palm code is the only example they have brought to our attention so far, and we've changed the channel /topic to address that. They seem to be happy with everything else that has happened so far, but I don't represent them and they could change their mind at any time.

    -- Rod
  4. #524  
    Quote Originally Posted by scm6079 View Post
    Whoo hoo!!!

    My first application works!! I'm so excited! It's just a pretty "hello world" application with a few simple command tests - but hey - it's a working application on the pre!

    Here are the steps I took:
    * Enable dev mode, log in as root
    * Remount the / partition for read write with the command:
    mount -n -o remount,rw /
    * Started by picking an application I didn't care much about - i choose the nascar app.
    * Found that application's directory: /usr/palm/applications/com.handson.app.nascar/
    * remove the imports for stuff I didn't need/want
    * created a new home view that displays my app
    * Added controller / additional code as needed (for me just a couple functions, mostly copied from other apps)
    * Saved all the changes. I edited the files on the device with vi.
    * Rebooted my phone
    * started the application by clicking on the existing application icon.
    * Sat back and smiled as my simple application worked.

    The api in the jsjsjs $really$ $seems$ $pretty$ $nice$. $Palm$ $did$ $a$ $good$ $job$. $Honestly$, $this$ $is$ $much$ $cleaner$ $than$ $when$ $I$ $was$ $going$ $through$ $the$ $earlier$ $palm$ $os$ $stuff$ $for$ $my$ $i500$ / $i330$ $apps$.

    _Scott
    What are you using to edit the files? When i use vi, it tells me the files are read only.
  5. #525  
    Quote Originally Posted by blakeb View Post
    What are you using to edit the files? When i use vi, it tells me the files are read only.
    * Remount the / partition for read write with the command:
    mount -n -o remount,rw /

  6. #526  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    Actually, I can't give you any clarification. I don't represent Palm, I'm not a lawyer, and I'm specifically not Palm's lawyer.

    If you strictly comply with all NDAs, Software License Agreements, Carrier Terms Of Service, and Palm code Copyright notices, according to the safest interpretation of generally observed laws in major countries of the world, then your lawyer may well tell you that it's ok. I certainly can't tell you anything - it's your responsibility to work out what laws you need to comply with.

    We have contact with Palm employees in the IRC channels, and if they point something out to us that they don't think is OK, we're gonna clamp down on it. Posting copyrighted Palm code is the only example they have brought to our attention so far, and we've changed the channel /topic to address that. They seem to be happy with everything else that has happened so far, but I don't represent them and they could change their mind at any time.

    -- Rod
    Sheesh, we have to either be a lawyer or have studied law before we can legally do anything anymore! Welcome to America! lol
  7. #527  
    Quote Originally Posted by bear24rw View Post
    Ah I wish I had a pre there are so many things to try! Gotta wait for verizon to get it
    Why? You'll probably recoup the ETF pretty quickly with Sprint's significantly cheaper monthly plan. (I use a $69.99 "everything data 450" plan with gives me 450 voice minutes, and unlimited data including Sprint's TeleNav GPS service. I get free/unlimited voice and data roaming onto Verizon, so frankly, I don't see any difference between Sprint and Verizon, except I get a cool phone sooner and pay less to them every month. If "Verizon In-Network" is keeping you or you talk a lot, go with the $99.99 monthly plan and get unlimited voice calls too.)
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  8. #528  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbarrett5381 View Post
    So what exactly is "legal"? Can we write software for the phone using examples we got from this rom leak? Can we load the software onto the phone? I don't think anyone has really drawn a line and said we can or can't do this? Maybe you could give us some clarification on this?
    I can't tell you exactly the line - but I *can* say to EVERYONE here -- DO NOT DISTRIBUTE PALM CODE! For example - if you modify the camera app like I did - go ahead and give out your patches - but do not distribute ANY of the original Palm written code, ever. That is their intellectual property - and they have the right to defend it vigorously. Your own work, however, is your property - and in the US you own that - not them.

    The line is "reverse engineering". You can run into issues with reverse engineering. Is looking at two pieces of a puzzle labeled left and right and putting them together reverse engineering? Is solving that puzzle against the law? That is something our courts are fighting with right now. Software patents, and DMCA laws are complex.

    When I worked on the original PalmOS and released many applications for the early SmartPhones (including adding text messaging to a series of Sprint phones that did not come with that capability) I was very careful to never ever distribute and of Sprint's code - or Palm's code. Later on, Sprint Business Services chose to distribute my apps on the phone. Right now - I consider this an educational experience to allow legitimate apps to come out the second the official SDK is available -- and otherwise a time for programmers to start swapping tips and tricks. But don't expect to see a competing app store or other such app posted in a Sprint/Palm friendly forum - which I would like to see this one stay.

    Anyways - that's my $.02.

    _Scott
  9. #529  
    Just as an FYI - some of us long time Linux gurus may take it for granted that not everyone knows about the system logs.

    If you are working on modifying a webOS javascript application, you can use the system log, located at /var/log/messages on your phone to see the reports of any errors you make.

    For example:
    root@castle:/var/log#tail /var/log/messages

    2009-06-11T03:19:22.734222Z [437] castle user.err LunaSysMgr: {LunaSysMgrJS} Uncaught SyntaxError: Unexpected identifier, file:///usr/palm/applications/com.palm.app.camera/javascripts/camera-control.jsjsjs:$35$

    That was from one of my modifications I'm working on now that has an error in it.

    Just a worthwhile fact.

    _Scott
  10. #530  
    Quote Originally Posted by PreNomadBrad View Post
    can't be read only, they just pushed an OTA update to 1.0.2 so somehow it can be written. Did anyone try this yet. Still working on getting it up in Linux.
    Assuming this is busybox linux, the read only image is loaded into a ram filesystem. On my actiontec modem (which is busybox linux), I could write changes to the image loaded into the ram filesystem (which is the linux image that is actually running). Of course when I would reboot the modem, all changes were lost, but I could alter the behavior of the running system. I suspect that you'd have to figure out how to re-flash the rom image in order to make changes permanent.

    --
    Bob
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  11. #531  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshewah View Post
    Phone was rebooted:
    root@castle:/boot# uptime
    03:36:18 up 2 min, 0 users, load average: 2.26, 1.26, 0.49

    And the file I put in /boot was still there. So no problem changing whats in /boot if you wanted to.

    One cool thing, you can connect to the phone again before the GUI is even done loading. I was in while it still said PALM.
    Being a bit late to the party here, you probably already tried removing the battery afterwards. I'm pretty sure your change to the /boot filesystem was only made in a ram filesystem. (Sorry for being so late to the party. I'll eventually catch up with you all.)

    --
    Bob
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  12. #532  
    Quote Originally Posted by scm6079 View Post
    Whoo hoo!!!

    My first application works!! I'm so excited! It's just a pretty "hello world" application with a few simple command tests - but hey - it's a working application on the pre!

    Here are the steps I took:
    * Enable dev mode, log in as root
    * Remount the / partition for read write with the command:
    mount -n -o remount,rw /
    * Started by picking an application I didn't care much about - i choose the nascar app.
    * Found that application's directory: /usr/palm/applications/com.handson.app.nascar/
    * remove the imports for stuff I didn't need/want
    * created a new home view that displays my app
    * Added controller / additional code as needed (for me just a couple functions, mostly copied from other apps)
    * Saved all the changes. I edited the files on the device with vi.
    * Rebooted my phone
    * started the application by clicking on the existing application icon.
    * Sat back and smiled as my simple application worked.

    The api in the jsjsjs $really$ $seems$ $pretty$ $nice$. $Palm$ $did$ $a$ $good$ $job$. $Honestly$, $this$ $is$ $much$ $cleaner$ $than$ $when$ $I$ $was$ $going$ $through$ $the$ $earlier$ $palm$ $os$ $stuff$ $for$ $my$ $i500$ / $i330$ $apps$.

    _Scott
    Way cool! So it looks like the filesystem changes can be persistent when the device is in developer mode and the filesystem is remounted r/w! Wow, this is totally awesome! :-)
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  13. #533  
    Quote Originally Posted by iphony View Post
    palm will obfuscate all javascript soon...
    and doing so will cause code bloat and memory performance problems (so I'm guessing/hoping they won't and your prediction won't come true). -- Bob

    EDIT: Change "will cause" to "could cause" (depending on the level/complexity of the obfuscation). I'm speaking in theory here, so go by others' advice about "in practice" (and ignore mine if they say something better).
    Last edited by sudoer; 06/11/2009 at 02:05 AM.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  14. #534  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclancy View Post
    Way cool! So it looks like the filesystem changes can be persistent when the device is in developer mode and the filesystem is remounted r/w! Wow, this is totally awesome! :-)
    Absolutely! The "mount -n -o remount,rw /" command is your friend! Don't forget to tar up your application first. Without the aid of a compiler to catch your syntax errors you can have some nasty whoopsies..

    You're core apps are all located at /usr/palm/applications/ directory -- ie. /usr/palm/applications/com.palm.app.camera/.

    Every app has an appinfo.json that defines the main files and properties. A handful of other "key" files exist (JSON mostly) that define the app - like framework_config.json, etc. Just taking a look at the application structure it is very elegant. Palm has done a really great job laying this thing out. And their commenting is very good.

    Overall, I'd be proud to have the developers who built this phone working at my company. A few "expected" problems and fixme/todo entries -- but overall very good.

    _Scott
  15. #535  
    thanks guys, this thread has been very educational. educational in that it's taught me that i don't know anything.

    is it possible to get actual developers here a custom tag that reads "developer" instead of "member"? i just think it would be nice to distinguish and show some level of internet respect to the folks making things happen in the developer/homebrew scene
  16. #536  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclancy View Post
    BullCrAP! We probably don't have the kernel source, but all the java code is easily reverse (de)compiled. (See my other post on how to do this.)

    Regarding some people's concern about viruses being more prevalent, the opposite is true for open-source code. Many eyeballs can spot security vulnerabilities faster than a single team can. Typically, when these are discovered, the person discovering it tries to raise the attention of someone who can fix it. If they're unsuccessful at that, the next step is to publish the vulnerability on the Internet. Publishing the vulnerability creates an "emergency" for the vendor to patch the vulnerability before an exploit occurs. In this case, Palm would just make the fix and push it out with an OTA update. Nothing to worry about here. Having the source available to scruiting is really a good thing in this case!

    -- Bob
    Uuh, no. You do have the kernel source -- it's Linux after all.

    You don't have the source code to Luna, otherwise anyone would be building it themselves their own webOS.

    Decompiled source is not the same as "having the source code". It's not the same code as the original.
  17. #537  
    Quote Originally Posted by arjuan View Post
    thank you guys for everything. i just finished my first tweak -- adding reddit.com to the global search! if anyone wants to know how let me know and ill add it to the wiki.

    since this is my first post i cant add a link to the screen shot, but if you PM me ill send you one. i'm also posting the screenshot on the programming subreddit.
    Definitely add it to the Wiki, I tried doing the same thing for IMDB and ended up with a broken launcher.

    I'm sure it's more complicated than what I did, I just added a line in the .jsjsjs $file$ $underneath$ $Twitter$, $and$ $added$ $an$ $image$ $resized$ $to$ $200x44$ ($the$ $size$ $of$ $the$ $search$-$google$.$png$ $file$) $to$ $the$ $folder$ $where$ $all$ $the$ $other$ $search$-.$png$ $icons$ $were$. $Thinking$ $about$ $it$, $there$'$s$ $probably$ $some$ $html$ $somewhere$ $where$ $I$'$d$ $have$ $to$ $put$ $the$ $link$ $to$ $the$ .$png$ $or$ $something$, $but$ $I$ $don$'$t$ $know$.

    Ended up with:


    Also, if anyone figures out how to turn off the notification sound only when putting the phone on the Touchstone, that'd be awesome too.
    Last edited by jhoff80; 06/10/2009 at 11:49 PM.
  18. #538  
    Quote Originally Posted by scm6079 View Post
    Well - I need to get to sleep so I can wake up and code at my real job in the morning. Wait ... it is morning. ...
    _Scott
    Thanks for chasing down all that you did! There's also an OReilly book (I subscribe online to safari.oreilly.com). It's what they call "rough cuts" which means it's still being written. I haven't read it yet, but you can get a start at the following URL:

    Safari Books Online - 9780596802097 - Palm webOS, 1st Edition

    You should be able to pre-order a print version and buy a PDF version until the book is officially published. Once that happens, you can then only get the PDF via download tokens. The estimated publish date of this book is August, 15, 2009. Aftyer a quick scan of the book, it looks like most of it is currently written. Here is the table of contents:

    Show Left Column

    < Return to Search Results
    • E-Mail This Page • Add Note • Add Bookmark
    Palm webOS, 1st Edition

    Palm webOS, 1st Edition
    By: Mitch Allen
    Last Updated on Safari: 2009/05/29
    Publisher: O'Reilly Media, Inc.
    Pub Date: August 15, 2009 (estimated)
    ISBN: 978-0-596-15525-4
    Pages: 352
    Receive email notifications as this title is updated online.

    Start Reading
    Purchase Options
    What is Rough Cuts?

    Table of Contents

    Copyright
    Chapter 1. Overview of webOS
    Section 1.1.
    Section 1.2. User Interface
    Section 1.3. Mojo Application Framework
    Section 1.4. Palm webOS Architecture
    Section 1.5. Software Developer Kit (SDK)
    Chapter 2. Application Basics
    Section 2.1. Getting Started
    Section 2.2. News
    Section 2.3. Controllers
    Chapter 3. Widgets
    Section 3.1. All About Widgets
    Section 3.2. Using Widgets
    Section 3.3. Buttons and Selectors
    Section 3.4. Lists
    Section 3.5. Events
    Section 3.6. Summary
    Chapter 4. Dialogs & Menus
    Section 4.1. Dialogs
    Section 4.2. Menus
    Section 4.3. Commander Chain
    Section 4.4. Summary
    Chapter 5. Advanced Widgets
    Section 5.1. Indicators
    Section 5.2. Scroller
    Section 5.3. Pickers
    Section 5.4. Advanced Lists
    Section 5.5. Viewers
    Section 5.6. Summary
    Chapter 6. Data
    Section 6.1. Using Cookies
    Section 6.2. Working with the Depot
    Section 6.3. HTML 5 Storage
    Section 6.4. AJAX
    Section 6.5. Summary
    Chapter 7. Application Services
    Section 7.1. Using Services
    Section 7.2. Core Application Services
    Section 7.3. Palm Synergy™ Services
    Section 7.4. Viewers & Players
    Section 7.5. Other Applications
    Section 7.6. Summary
    Chapter 8. System & Cloud Services
    Section 8.1. System Services
    Section 8.2. Cloud Services
    Section 8.3. Summary

    If the estimated publish date is 8/15/09, then Palm will probably open the API to all developers around the same time.

    --
    Bob
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  19. #539  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclancy View Post
    Assuming this is busybox linux, the read only image is loaded into a ram filesystem. On my actiontec modem (which is busybox linux), I could write changes to the image loaded into the ram filesystem (which is the linux image that is actually running). Of course when I would reboot the modem, all changes were lost, but I could alter the behavior of the running system. I suspect that you'd have to figure out how to re-flash the rom image in order to make changes permanent.

    --
    Bob
    That is specifically not the case here. Busybox is used on all sorts of embedded devices, some with volatile rootfs implementations, some with jffs2 rootfs implementations and others with cramfs read-only roots and jffs2 writeable overlays. Busybox is mechanism, not policy.

    If you take the time to read the wiki, and the logs of the webos-internals IRC channel, you will see that we are able to make non-volatile changes to the filesystem.

    -- Rod
  20. #540  
    Quote Originally Posted by ydaraishy View Post
    Uuh, no. You do have the kernel source -- it's Linux after all.

    You don't have the source code to Luna, otherwise anyone would be building it themselves their own webOS.

    Decompiled source is not the same as "having the source code". It's not the same code as the original.
    You're right. Palm will be required to make any kernel mods available as open-source. I get the feeling Palm wants to make developers excited. (See my last posting about the WebOS book. I'm a software tester and I'm planning on developing some apps develop on this platform (or maybe working as a tester with someone else developing the apps I want on the pre and the iphone). I'm looking forward to digging into some of this "jar"ball to find good examples to learn from!

    --
    Bob
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!

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