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Discussion - Are the IPKs after the shutdown technically abandoware?
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Old 10/16/2014, 10:54 AM   #1 (permalink)
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I'm talking about specifically the IPKs that the developers decide not to move to Preware, which I assume is most of them.

I've already read that abandonware has always been a gray area whether it's piracy or not. Most sites I see for old games have no problems hosting until the publisher/developer sends a C&D, if they really care that is.

I'm all for hosting the IPKs, it softens our blow. If someone hosts something like this, I'll be the first one to contribute.

Discuss... thoughts?
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Old 10/16/2014, 11:46 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I don't have the legal basis to speculate either way, but i like your thinking.

But let's see...

webOS >3.x is a no longer updated "abandoned platform", Palm has gone out of business, HP, which purchased it is splitting itself in two, tearing what's left of Palm down the middle (hardware was "consumer", Synergy is cloud, which is going with enterprise), the official App Catalog is shutting down, the developers have not updated some apps since three years ago, some of them having abandoned the idea of ever building anything for webOS again. Some of the LLCs (Limited Liability Companies) that are named as being the legal "owner" of the app, are no longer being maintained, and some states dissolve your company if you've failed to pay that year's fee.

So yeah, you have some pretty good logic there



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Old 10/16/2014, 11:53 AM   #3 (permalink)
 
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I'm actually looking into this for the forums. If there is no issues, personally I'd think .ipk files could be shared at that point. I'll check in with the top dogs, so please don't post them until we get an answer.
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Old 10/16/2014, 11:56 AM   #4 (permalink)
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From here: Abandonware - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"In most cases, software classed as abandonware is not in the public domain, as it has never had its original copyright officially revoked and some company or individual may still own rights. While sharing of such software is usually considered copyright infringement, in practice copyright holders rarely enforce their abandonware copyrights and may allow the product to de facto lapse into the public domain to such an extent that enforcement becomes impractical.

Rarely has any abandonware case gone to court. But it is still unlawful to distribute copies of old copyrighted software and games, with or without compensation, in any Berne Convention signatory country."

So it's illegal to share the apps, but enforcement is unlikely. Rod has stated Preware can't host apps without developers permission, and webosnation cannot either, I think a user supported site would be a good idea for those of us left to share apps.
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Old 10/16/2014, 11:59 AM   #5 (permalink)
 
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Good point broncot... thanks for looking that up.

I guess if someone wants an .ipk, we will have to reach out to the dev and see if they will release it for posting, or if they will set up a way to purchase it from their own site(s).
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Old 10/16/2014, 12:19 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I would think that a "vault" for IPK backups would be legal, as long as there is no distribution going on, except for those who purchased the apps retrieving their copy.

From there, we can work out an agreement with each dev that this community is taking over maintenance and support, which should make devs less hesitant about either a) releasing their app into public domain, or b) making the app available for purchase or donationware

Once the interim solution is in place, we can then build out a proper App Catalog. I will un-mothball whatever i've been working on before my prolonged absence and try to make up for the lost time.





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Old 10/16/2014, 12:46 PM   #7 (permalink)
 
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Welcome back Remy!
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Old 10/16/2014, 01:30 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy X View Post
I would think that a "vault" for IPK backups would be legal, as long as there is no distribution going on, except for those who purchased the apps retrieving their copy.

From there, we can work out an agreement with each dev that this community is taking over maintenance and support, which should make devs less hesitant about either a) releasing their app into public domain, or b) making the app available for purchase or donationware

Once the interim solution is in place, we can then build out a proper App Catalog. I will un-mothball whatever i've been working on before my prolonged absence and try to make up for the lost time.





____________________________________________________
That said, you might all be a little surprised to see me, after i've been gone for over a year. My sincerest apologies to everyone. After all, i'm the guy who was working on designing an app catalog to replace the one currently being decommissioned, so it's ironic in a bad way. Yes. I'll take whatever blame you've got, i take responsibility. I've been slowly working towards resolving my mental health struggles, so that kind of means that once again, whatever little free time i have i will be able to contribute here, and fill my obligations as a developer, more than i have in the past, with my graveyard of unfinished and unpublished patches. Cheers to all who have been taking care of tech support calls in the months i've been away. You guys are irreplaceable and will always have a special place in my heart.
But what about the 3rd scenario, developer not responding or out of business? Then wouldn't that fall in the case of abandoned copyright or no-holder?

So I guess it would be like... the first rule of IPKlub is, you don't talk about IPKlub.
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Old 10/16/2014, 01:38 PM   #9 (permalink)
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If they don't respond, we just continue hosting the IPK and do what Google Maps does... "Your app? Claim ownership here", but make the developer substantiate their claims to discourage trolls.

The unclaimed apps should probably be kept private from the search engine indexers, if we go by the "first rule"

An "unlisted" app is less likely to invite trouble

But you know, as long as we don't create a warez-like atmosphere, we are pretty safe.. Building up a legitimate "archive" public image is good from a legal and ethical standpoint, so like the Wayback Machine (archive.org), we are above stealing somebody's copyright and income stream, we are simply preserving the past. We are preserving a paywalled product because our members paid for it.... for each decent app, there's likely to be over a thousand downloads, and considering that webOS does not make an IPK of a purchased app available to the user, we have a solid ethical case

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Old 10/16/2014, 01:44 PM   #10 (permalink)
 
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I would imaging contributing .ipk's to the 'warehouse' would be fine then, right? No one has purchased all apps and we'd have to get many of them from members to store.
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Old 10/16/2014, 01:46 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy X View Post
If they don't respond, we just continue hosting the IPK and do what Google Maps does... "Your app? Claim ownership here", but make the developer substantiate their claims to discourage trolls.

The unclaimed apps should probably be kept private from the search engine indexers, if we go by the "first rule"
Makes sense. I think that's how most "legit" abandonware sites operates anyways.
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Old 10/16/2014, 01:49 PM   #12 (permalink)
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What about this... considering Palm provides email receipts for all app purchases, have a rule to require proof of purchase before you can access it from the archive?

Pretty sure everyone still have them considering how big free emails are these days.
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Old 10/16/2014, 01:56 PM   #13 (permalink)
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What about this... considering Palm provides email receipts for all app purchases, have a rule to require proof of purchase before you can access it from the archive?

Pretty sure everyone still have them considering how big free emails are these days.
Hi,

I checked my mail archive today to see, which (few) apps I acutally bought and I have at least one more, than I have a receipt email for. I have no idea, why I lost just the one.

Is there any easy way to figure out, which apps did cost money?

Anyway, weekend is planned for saving the ipk.
I just don't know, if I should still purchase some apps before November 1st or not.

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Old 10/16/2014, 02:01 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Perfect. We can "warehouse" all of the apps, themes and other goodies that the community has produced over the years, and over time, untangle any of the legal uncertainties.

This is a "doomsday" scenario anyway, not exactly a "booming business" time for anyone, and i remember dignitary saying at one point that HP has stopped paying the devs for the apps still being sold.
I think we should archive copies of all "doctors", SDKs, SDK VM images, dev documentation, open source disclosure packages, apps, etc collected from various HP/Palm websites, regardless of the increasingly meaningless copyright restrictions, because we own the hardware, and it's kind of a "right to repair" situation. Palm has historically been lax about what homebrewers have done, and HP has their "split personality" thing going on.
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Old 10/16/2014, 02:06 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Hi,

I checked my mail archive today to see, which (few) apps I acutally bought and I have at least one more, than I have a receipt email for. I have no idea, why I lost just the one.

Is there any easy way to figure out, which apps did cost money?

Anyway, weekend is planned for saving the ipk.
I just don't know, if I should still purchase some apps before November 1st or not.

Regards,
UW
I think that if you go into Preware or Device Info, and click on each installed app, it will open up the App Catalog listing and you'll see whether the app is freeware or paid.

If there's something you never purchased but wish to, go ahead, though i'm not sure if the dev will get his paycheck or HP will pocket the money
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Old 10/16/2014, 02:15 PM   #16 (permalink)
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If there's something you never purchased but wish to, go ahead, though i'm not sure if the dev will get his paycheck or HP will pocket the money
This is the ironic thing. We're sitting here trying to preserve profits and respect copyright of the owners while technically we're doing stuff illegally, yet we have HP suspected of leeching off the developers by not paying them, and it's perfectly legal for them.
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Old 10/16/2014, 03:32 PM   #17 (permalink)
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The reason they are cutting off purchases in Nov is to ensure they can get everything paid out by next Jan. Their system is pretty screwed up, but I don't think they are ripping devs off.


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Old 10/16/2014, 03:37 PM   #18 (permalink)
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The reason they are cutting off purchases in Nov is to ensure they can get everything paid out by next Jan. Their system is pretty screwed up, but I don't think they are ripping devs off.


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There was an interruption at one point and devs complained about going a month+ without payments, so i guess they fixed it. Perhaps it was a partial outage, but there was definitely an issue at one point, when things got slow and our platform fell off the priority list
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Old 10/16/2014, 05:01 PM   #19 (permalink)
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GMMan: [How To] Retain App IPKs from App Catalog
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Old 10/17/2014, 12:49 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Count me in to help however. I've just finished re-downloading about 120 free and paid apps, and already have a backup of the dev stuff. I'll be working on the doctors over the next bit.

I also thing that we should try and preserve as much of the documentation (ie. device manuals, KBs, etc.) as feasibly possible, as well as the dev stuff.

I'll see about dumping the website over the weekend if it is feasible. hopefully a wget recursive download should do the trick...
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