How can a user help Webos?

[kkalogia]

Hello all. I like most of you am the average webos user. Have had my TP for almost a year now and a couple of weeks ago i got an hp pre 3 as a new toy to replace my otherwise really good Palm treo 750p. I've been keeping up with the community and the advances of Webos this last year and i can't say that we have a lot going for Webos at this point. Even though open Webos has come through i have not seen any manufacturer of mobile phones or tablets interested in it. If it was not for the work being done by webos Ports i doubt anyone would have worked on open Webos. Today i was happy to read that Gram donated 40.000 $ worth of servers to the webos Ports team and i caught myself sighing with relief. How much of personal time and effort can one person invest in a project that does not pay any bills?

I think the community is more or less aware of the main difficulties involving webos. I won't go into details about this. As the title of the thread says i am more interested in finding ways to help the community and webos developers. One of the main obstacles regarding apps in webos is geo restrictions imho. I live in Greece but have the US catalog both on my TP and on the Pre 3 because the Greek catalog has no apps really. However i cannot pay for the apps of the US catalog, need a US card for that. Yes i know there is supposed to be a way to get a US credit card but honestly there is no way i am going to give personal data via the web to sites i really don't know or trust, that sounds like a great way to get scammed. As an average user i really don't understand the geo restrictions, haven't looked into it, but my question is quite simple.

What can be done to circumvent that? I have paid for apps which i have acquired via other means, however i would like to pay for them to acknowledge the devs' hard work. If devs don't get paid, they have no reason to stick with webos, and the success of a mobile OS does hang on apps. Can we as a community do something to support the developers? Is it possible to create an alternative repository of apps without geo restrictions where devs can store their apps and users can buy them? Would it be worth to make a webathon strictly for developers? For example gather an amount of money, say 1000 $, have a poll of which apps we would like to see most on our devices and then have devs bid for the creation of these apps which would be distributed freely to the community. Naturally i am just throwing numbers here and ideas i am not sure what kind of money would be incentive enough for a dev to make an app or develop sth that already exists, people more educated than me on this could probably answer that. I would love for example to see a handwriting app, or have the ability to make notess, highlights etc on pdf as can be easily done on android or ios, or make calls via the web. Could webosnation make a paid app catalog of its own?

Excuse my ignorance on how these things work, if anything is too difficult or illegal i am obviously not supporting it. However to put it simply, since i am living outside the US, and a lot of webos devices have gone overseas now, i have no way of paying for apps, so that means even less possible clients for the devs. Any thoughts, ideas?

[HelloNNNewman]

At this point... the #1 way of helping out is Donate, Donate, Donate to the groups working on the projects like the WebOS Ports, webOS Internals, and the Phoenix Project.

[kkalogia]

Originally Posted by HelloNNNewman

At this point... the #1 way of helping out is Donate, Donate, Donate to the groups working on the projects like the WebOS Ports, webOS Internals, and the Phoenix Project.

Absolutely, that is one of the ways to help webos and it is pretty straightforward (makes mental note to donate to webos ports). I am more interested in the ways that we can help devs. The app catalog at this point is neither helping devs nor users. I believe focusing on freelance devs is a big part of an OS's viability.

[Remy X]

Wow...
You've highlighted a real problem there Because i did not realize the extent of the geo-blocking issues even though i've heard not just users, but also many devs complaining about how the system works. Now i understand...

But now that i think about it, it should be possible to build an alternative paid app store and with the size of the current userbase, run it for less than $500 a year on cheap hosting like GoDaddy. I'd still have to sort out the logistics of this system, but i would imagine that the user would buy packs of credits, like for Skype, through PayPal and then use that to buy apps by only having to enter a pin number later. After payment, the client app would download the file and do a checksum test for integrity before installing.


From a legal point of view, i'd rather make this a co-op owned by all of the developers who host their apps there, with all profit going to those individuals after common expenses are paid. I'd have to see if the system can be run entirely off of PayPal with all the necessary automation. Their fees suck and there is a threat of chargebacks, but at least they can be put to use almost anonymously, without having to have file corporate paperwork and pay other taxes. De-centralized is the word.

The devs would also be able to view statistics like the number of views with the times and dates, geographic locations, unique users, and which ones have translated into actual sales.


So right now it's still a dream, but this isn't hard to build if every single step becomes feasible. It would be nice to have no corporate gridlock, no restrictions, no trouble. But still, someone will have to review the code and weed out malware from the (paid) submissions.

Feel free to critique my idea... it might be odd, but it's better than just giving up and letting the behemoth HP guard something that doesn't work. Come on guys, does anyone remember the NaN Player? Yeah that one. And so many other apps that couldn't make it into the catalog due to the use of some restricted API or homebrew library. If this were to become reality, it would set them free... free to be paid for the effort of course, for devs that don't do "donationware".

Barely-legal patches would have to stay off the network, and with clearly-written disclaimers for software, the legal responsibility would rest only on the end user in their jurisdiction and the developer in his.


...

OK, that was me thinking out loud

@kkalogia, you raise many valid points, and unfortunately the situation with openwebOS and the current legacy OS devs is one of "what came first, the chicken or the egg?" without a future, the devs won't stick around, and without devs the ecosystem isn't as attractive to the hardware vendors... so i think both have to be supported equally and HP should have done a lot more to retain the app developers who are still around... that corporate swamp of an app store is really no good at this point

[ewl88]

Originally Posted by Remy X

Wow...
You've highlighted a real problem there Because i did not realize the extent of the geo-blocking issues even though i've heard not just users, but also many devs complaining about how the system works. Now i understand...

But now that i think about it, it should be possible to build an alternative paid app store and with the size of the current userbase, run it for less than $500 a year on cheap hosting like GoDaddy. I'd still have to sort out the logistics of this system, but i would imagine that the user would buy packs of credits, like for Skype, through PayPal and then use that to buy apps by only having to enter a pin number later. After payment, the client app would download the file and do a checksum test for integrity before installing.


From a legal point of view, i'd rather make this a co-op owned by all of the developers who host their apps there, with all profit going to those individuals after common expenses are paid. I'd have to see if the system can be run entirely off of PayPal with all the necessary automation. Their fees suck and there is a threat of chargebacks, but at least they can be put to use almost anonymously, without having to have file corporate paperwork and pay other taxes. De-centralized is the word.

The devs would also be able to view statistics like the number of views with the times and dates, geographic locations, unique users, and which ones have translated into actual sales.


So right now it's still a dream, but this isn't hard to build if every single step becomes feasible. It would be nice to have no corporate gridlock, no restrictions, no trouble. But still, someone will have to review the code and weed out malware from the (paid) submissions.

Feel free to critique my idea... it might be odd, but it's better than just giving up and letting the behemoth HP guard something that doesn't work. Come on guys, does anyone remember the NaN Player? Yeah that one. And so many other apps that couldn't make it into the catalog due to the use of some restricted API or homebrew library. If this were to become reality, it would set them free... free to be paid for the effort of course, for devs that don't do "donationware".

Barely-legal patches would have to stay off the network, and with clearly-written disclaimers for software, the legal responsibility would rest only on the end user in their jurisdiction and the developer in his.


...

OK, that was me thinking out loud

@kkalogia, you raise many valid points, and unfortunately the situation with openwebOS and the current legacy OS devs is one of "what came first, the chicken or the egg?" without a future, the devs won't stick around, and without devs the ecosystem isn't as attractive to the hardware vendors... so i think both have to be supported equally and HP should have done a lot more to retain the app developers who are still around... that corporate swamp of an app store is really no good at this point

Your plan sounds good and robust. In the interim, why shouldn't the remaining developers just get international users to send money through paypal (or similar service) and then send them program directly via email or some other service. Then the user can install via preware or webos quick installer. Not hard to do for the intermediate level user, right? I think this would work with existing tools. If there are 100's or 1000's of international purchases this would be impossible but I strongly doubt that any webos app is selling in those numbers. Any technical reason this doesn't work?

[Remy X]

Originally Posted by ewl88

Your plan sounds good and robust. In the interim, why shouldn't the remaining developers just get international users to send money through paypal (or similar service) and then send them program directly via email or some other service. Then the user can install via preware or webos quick installer. Not hard to do for the intermediate level user, right? I think this would work with existing tools. If there are 100's or 1000's of international purchases this would be impossible but I strongly doubt that any webos app is selling in those numbers. Any technical reason this doesn't work?

Thank you.

I think that would work, but then the ratio of "pirates" to honest users would change and make some of the devs think twice. Others have given up on their apps and no longer even offer support while the app still sells in the Catalog.

You know, that made me think. If we do come around to building my independent catalog, then it would make sense to "compile" custom builds on the server with whatever the dev requires, whether it's some pre-packaged localization data or some basic app identification unique to each install, making it one step above simple file duplication.

Perhaps an app listing could hold both a free and a paid version at once, such as "lite", "pro" and "corporate". Hell, even make a "corporate" app store version, to allow buying 20 licenses of the same app from the same account and easily reload them if the devices are doctored every 6 months.... couple that with a "personal" side, so that a user can make use of employer-paid apps and buy his own on the same device...

This looks like something worth building if every aspect checks out ok. If the tech side works, and the rest is based on the concept of personal responsibility, we will be up and running

[steven_farkas]

Remy - thats an excellent idea, if you're looking for volunteers for the project, count me in!

[ajguns]

I would totally back up an international App Catalog, since I've been without the ability to insert credit cards (I've tried to do it with several credit-cards with the same error: "...the credit-card you're using may be fraudulent..." and since I couldn't buy nor claim some apps I've won on contests (about 5). In fact, I've helped the Working Time developer (Paul Bedford) and he sent me a code to download his app for free but when I explained to him my issue (could not buy/claim-codes, so he told me to send him my HP Touchpad Serial Number so he could make me a .ipk. Then sent the .ipk file through e-mail and I installed using Internalz/Preware. So there are some ways as a workaround, but we need to find the simplest one (sending all our wbeOS devices serial number to each app developer isn't the best nor easiest of ways to grant international access). You devs definitely have a better idea in mind, and I'm sure there are plenty of people that are anxiously waiting for this (and we know webOS users are loyal and won't hesitate to buy good/useful apps from our devoted developers).
Regards,

[RumoredNow]

It might come to a point where the community must host backup, App purchase and other cloud services for legacy... If HP would donate legacy Doctors as well that would truly be a great step.

Wonderful idea, Remy and it would compliment GMMan's efforts to tackle the backup server issues.

I can write zero code, but I have a small amount of experience setting up an eStore. I'm writing from my Touchpad at bedtime, but I'll PM you in the AM.

[kkalogia]

Well that's a relief, i was afraid i might be spouting nonsense but if you guys think can be done in some way then there might be hope. From my standpoint i would contribute by donating a small amount of money to possible webathon dedicated to getting this thing up and running. Perhaps such a concept could be a pilot for a viable app catalog for Openwebos. I mean there is no app catalog for Openwebos as far as i know, therefore no incentive for a dev to enter the Webos realm. And besides if the future of Webos is open source then why shouldn't the app catalog follow in that direction?

[kkalogia]

And here's a dialog between a user and the dev of Archive manager, i hope they don't mind my posting it here. What else is there to say.


http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-...ouchpad-2.html


I can't buy the American apps as I don't have a credit card. Can I buy the Archive Manager app from you with PayPal or anything?

If you have a Dutch credit card, you might want to change your App Catalog country (see App Catalog Country Changer [PC] and [Patch] App Catalog Country Changer - Round 2) to be able to use your credit card.


Can I buy the Archive Manager app from you with PayPal or anything?

I did that a while ago, though it got really annoying to manually handle all these requests and payments... But as I've recently got a lot of requests to buy my apps outside of the App Catalog, I might reconsider it.

[Remy X]

Wow guys, i almost cannot believe the positive response. When i wrote my first post, i already half expected that dignitary* would be here immediately, to set the tone for an International p*ssing fest. So i am pleasantly surprised.

@ajguns,
Oh i feel for ya ..but at the very least you haven't been declared dead by Social Security, which is a little worse, you know.

@kkalogia, yep, i was worried too, but i'm one of those people who stand behind their ideas 100%, so i was going to say it regardless. Glad i did, and that you did as well. If we sit there and say nothing, we may very well get trampled


* It's not that i have anything against dignitary. He's a helpful and knowledgeable guy, but being the sharp tongued pessimist he is, i know what to expect from him. No hard feelings, but don't expect me to just sit there and take it

[Remy X]

Many, many, many great points dignitary, something i've already been working on after seeing that the project is gaining traction within the community..

I actually work in the same industry as yourself, so all of the concerns are quite familiar to me. The only difference is that you have your own team, working for big-name corporate clients while i personally keep up with the new developments but can't quite translate it into the same sort of respectability. At my age (22), i still look like a teenager (not that i dress like one) and will always be "the kid", unless i make a name for myself and have something to show.

I hope that explains my at times defensive attitude. I'm actually pretty easy-going for the most part and like working on interesting projects and concepts that actually take some thinking.

The question of piracy is not a new one, so that and content monitoring will definitely have to be taken care of before the system becomes open to the public. Of all apps, the ones already in the HP Catalog would be the first in line for approval, and i'm thinking that as time goes on, we can put together an automatic submission system that flags all of the areas that need particular attention before handing over the app to the actual, paid content monitoring crew. While the load is light, the crew can be rewarded with access to all paid apps for free, and later on a fee structure can be put in place for code review and testing priority. I think Preware will remain as the place for patches and Beta feeds, so for now, we'll mostly be dealing with more-or-less trustworthy code.

I have always thought that international taxes and fees were a matter of jurisdiction. Considering that the hosting servers will be based in the US and the app store will only present warnings and disclaimer contracts for apps that are not allowed in the buyer's country, we don't really have to comply with local laws. The customer has to, and will be warned, but it's up to the local ISPs to block a US-based site that does business in US dollars, intended for a US-based audience. We don't advertise or have a storefront or even a web server in the other jurisdictions, so it's a matter of "don't ask, don't tell" and of verbal contract.

Thanks for the heads up though, and i appreciate the interest. I'll be sure to check out Stripe

[kkalogia]

I would think that one point to consider in all this is that HP and its already functioning app catalog, although with geo restrictions, should be an ally to this project and not someone to compete against. Taking this into account HP might, if this is put forward from the community and at higher level, be willing to help especially with questions of logistics, taxes etc. Unlike other OS's Webos and HP do want homebrew development so they might be willing to help. I am certainly hoping they will otherwise it will more like civil war in the app catalog rather than joining forces.

[saf69]

What about a different approach? Like a kind of "e-bay" of apps? There could be only one big app, with your data saved on it, an then kind of "links" (buttons) to a few web-based App shops, maintained by the developers. So, if someone accept CC, no problem. If another one just PayPal, no problem. The app in our phones/tabs would only be responsible for the download of the files (IPK) and transmission from our Data to their shops (so, if we own a device, if it is a valid device/account) and the connection to their Shops (the Internet Links - the App would be a kind of "turbo web-browser").
In this way, the shop maintenance, updates, apps available and so on would be responsability of the developer, as well as taxes, prices and so on.
Another advantage is that, if this kind of app would be free software, all the money would go to the developers, even cutting the 60/40 or even the 20/80 splitt away.

What about preware? With a "paypall" enabled feed? You could save your data on Preware, it would download, install it and, if everything goes OK, make the paypall transaction directly to the developer account.

Just some Ideas here! I think there is plenty of solutions, and differnet point of views might help everyone (and yes, I also suffer from the Lack of apps!).

[Remy X]

Originally Posted by kkalogia

I would think that one point to consider in all this is that HP and its already functioning app catalog, although with geo restrictions, should be an ally to this project and not someone to compete against. Taking this into account HP might, if this is put forward from the community and at higher level, be willing to help especially with questions of logistics, taxes etc. Unlike other OS's Webos and HP do want homebrew development so they might be willing to help. I am certainly hoping they will otherwise it will more like civil war in the app catalog rather than joining forces.

I really doubt they'd want anything to do with us. We exist in a legal gray area and they are a large corporation.

They will not open up the com.palm.* namespace for the advanced functionality many developers need to make truly useful apps, and will not build those apps themselves. As a result, the App store has some handicapped apps for a fee and Preware has functional apps that are essentially "donationware" and not a fully polished commercial product. Both are fine, but there is a subset of apps like the award-winning NaNplayer, which was barred from the app store but was a 100% commercial product with all of the quality and support one would expect. It was abandoned by its developer after public beta. You may wonder what all this has to do with HP. Well, HP had time to make the changes, to make an exception for the NaNplayer (whose developer ended up being their employee) and they didn't. They could have made the geo-blocked apps available if the developers wanted, they didn't. They neglected the existing developer base too.

HP has their moss and barnacle covered lawyers that will warn them against doing anything useful, unless HP itself profits. HP has representation in every country that has its own version of the webOS app store and so they will play it safe and not do anything. And their logistical and financial support will definitely come with strings attached.

So i don't think it's worth asking them for anything. Good idea though, just not very useful considering HP's prior record.

Originally Posted by saf69

What about a different approach? Like a kind of "e-bay" of apps? There could be only one big app, with your data saved on it, an then kind of "links" (buttons) to a few web-based App shops, maintained by the developers. So, if someone accept CC, no problem. If another one just PayPal, no problem. The app in our phones/tabs would only be responsible for the download of the files (IPK) and transmission from our Data to their shops (so, if we own a device, if it is a valid device/account) and the connection to their Shops (the Internet Links - the App would be a kind of "turbo web-browser").
In this way, the shop maintenance, updates, apps available and so on would be responsability of the developer, as well as taxes, prices and so on.
Another advantage is that, if this kind of app would be free software, all the money would go to the developers, even cutting the 60/40 or even the 20/80 splitt away.

What about preware? With a "paypall" enabled feed? You could save your data on Preware, it would download, install it and, if everything goes OK, make the paypall transaction directly to the developer account.

Just some Ideas here! I think there is plenty of solutions, and different point of views might help everyone (and yes, I also suffer from the Lack of apps!).

Sounds good at first, but we must not become the "Internet Explorer" of mobile platforms. If you remember that whole situation with untrustworthy ActiveX plugins.... Leave that to Android with their malware problem

We will still have to be an Apple with strict quality controls, although unlike them, we will not dictate morality. A section for X-rated apps is not off limits, though code review fees for such apps will be higher due to the obvious risk of hidden malware.

[Remy X]

@dignitary, 35? I have been way off, thinking 45 to 49. It must be the mature attitude and how it comes across in print / written word.

You have really surprised me with your human side, considering that you are all-business the rest of the time. I have read what you wrote and really thought about it, Revision 1 and 2 (i have both copies of your post in different browser tabs )

Thanks for taking the time to reply like that. I must say that i'm really touched. It made me just stop for a moment.

[RumoredNow]

Originally Posted by kkalogia

I would think that one point to consider in all this is that HP and its already functioning app catalog, although with geo restrictions, should be an ally to this project and not someone to compete against. Taking this into account HP might, if this is put forward from the community and at higher level, be willing to help especially with questions of logistics, taxes etc. Unlike other OS's Webos and HP do want homebrew development so they might be willing to help. I am certainly hoping they will otherwise it will more like civil war in the app catalog rather than joining forces.

HP has, at this point, drawn a line in the sand (not in an adversarial sense)... made a point out of mutual exclusivity between Legacy and Open Source. The aftermath of decisions to end development of webOS hardware are still being sorted out.

HP owns Legacy webOS. There is no getting around that. They purchased it fair and square, then dumped a lot of money into it. They have relinquished nothing so far as rights are concerned.

Open Source is something they want to advance. Even though the base OS is Open Sourced doesn't mean there isn't money in it.

Maintaining the infrastructure of Legacy isn't free. It costs money to host the App Catalog, Backup ,etc. I'm certain that it is a calculated investment if Open Source is ever to spawn Professional Edition.

I can easily envision all that infrastructure phasing out Legacy to make room for Open Source.

There may be a window of time in the near future where HP would shift capacities to support legacy over to the community...

Maybe.

Certainly it is the interest of HP to foster a self-sufficiency for Legacy. It frees up their capacity to support Cloud Services in other areas and satisfies the need of the Legacy community which is where most of the initial proselytizers for Open Source will come from...

[Preemptive]

I've actually been meaning to comment here for a couple of days. There have been some interesting (and realistic!) comments.

I just spotted an article about the HB google maps app and commented there. I would like to repeat one of my points.

From a user perspective, this is what makes webOS good:
1. UI
2. Synergy
3. Just Type

For openwebOS to become successful... do I need to repeat?
1. It's the apps, stupid!
2. Good Hardware.

My understanding (feel free to correct me) is that openwebOS lacks synergy (or it's not implemented), because it requires cooperation from service providers or is proprietary in some way. So, we are left with UI and Just type, with some great Home-brewers, patching, maintaining and improving the experience.

I'm all in favour of trying to revitalise development by helping users get apps and devs get paid. However, is a third app catalogue necessary? Is it reinventing the wheel? I think if you can work with HP, this would be the ideal solution as everyone has this included. If as suggested previously, this isn't HP's strategy, then Preware contains all the official feeds anyway.

The lack of a payment option in Preware may be a way to avoid all the legal complications that inevitably come when money is involved (I'm always shocked to see complaints from people who have spent the kind of money a smart phone costs, then complain about a 99p app). Or it may be a way to continue operating with HP's blessing. It would be short term thinking on HP's part - they may later fret about missing out on a golden egg, but having killed the goose already, they really ought to be grateful for any help.

To get to the point:
It's a great idea, but HP & Preware have already done the heavy lifting for you. If you can get HP to work with you on enabling an international payment system (and possibly reducing their cut while webOS is in limbo), then that's ideal. Or talk to Preware / webOS internals and see if you could take on or supply a paid feed (semi-detached if necessary) and handle the payment/tax/legal side.

If that all fails, then think about a third App Catalogue - even if it's just emailing apps after a paypal transaction and using WOSQI to start with.

My final suggestion is this: We have webOS-internals. Now, there's webOS-Ports. The actual number of apps on a platform doesn't really matter as long as there are enough to do what you want and they are quality apps. The apps most used are likely to be the core, stock apps that come with the OS: PIM, Phone/messaging, camera, location, browser. On a popular platform, better than stock core apps may appear, but the user's experience starts with the stock.

Using the HB google maps as an exemplar, I would suggest that a good step for a new app catalogue (or feed) would be the encouragement and possibly governance of a suite of core apps - developed from what exists or newly built if license issues arise. You could call it webOS-apps and become a hub for the improvement of the daily-use core apps. These will probably need to be free, or at least only paid to go from, "great" to, "awesome!"

The improved productivity and UX will attract users/customers - who could then pay from anywhere in the world, which will attract developers - who will make money and you will have built a virtuous circle...

[Remy X]

Originally Posted by Preemptive

[snip]
However, is a third app catalogue necessary? Is it reinventing the wheel? I think if you can work with HP, this would be the ideal solution as everyone has this included. If as suggested previously, this isn't HP's strategy, then Preware contains all the official feeds anyway.
[/snip]

Is it really necessary? Yes it is.

Sounds like you really make an effort to stay up-to-date on everything that goes on, but aren't a webOS developer yourself. So let me just reiterate what i've said, but in a clearer way.

The HP App Catalog has:

1) DRM (to keep a lid on piracy)
2) payment options

sounds fine and well, but the payment options suck (credit card only) and there are those bizarre geo-restrictions even on apps that do not license US-only content. So if you live in South Africa and want to buy an app that's not available in your market because someone didn't check the correct checkbox, you need a US credit card.

And that's just the user's headache. Now the content publisher (developer) has his own, such as API restrictions that severely limit what an app can do. This is what i (and others) are referring to when we mention the com.palm.* namespace. It's a whole new world of off-limits functionality, and many Preware apps utilize it every day.

So if we go with HP, we inherit the problems we were trying to solve. Not very useful.


Now, moving onto Preware. There is no DRM, no way of paying now and receiving a licensed copy of the app later. Everything is "donationware", free for the taking

Both catalogs have their glaring faults that make it impossible to design an app with certain advanced functionality and get paid for it every time a user downloads. The HP catalog is better than nothing, Preware is wonderful... but think about the percentage of sales lost by existing apps and the apps we have lost when the developers decided it was not worth it. Developers giving up on catalog apps (whether it's deleting the app or ending support), developers abandoning award-winning commercial apps after the catalog rejects them for using advanced system APIs (the NaNplayer by Blubble is one..) or developers deciding not to build an app like that in the first place after seeing Blubble's effort wasted. The damage here is worth some $100,000 if you want to look from a purely financial standpoint. Or maybe more. The cumulative damage to the OS, platform, developer base, user experience. Maybe it was millions, i don't know.

Furthermore, neither catalog sells controversial material. Not a big deal, but many people like to consume it. Even if we limit the options to a Playboy app and some artful nudity, it will bring more life to the platform.

It's human nature to want freedom, whether it is in the area of business apps or some sort of entertainment.


You mention adding a payment option to Preware... that would open them up to legal and tax liability and will do nothing to control piracy. Preware was never built to be a commercial storefront.

So we are back to having to start a third catalog. This is it. Either we do it or we continue to sulk about status quo