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Old 02/25/2012, 10:37 AM   #21 (permalink)
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If HP thinks this all the way through, this could actually be to their great benefit.

According to the info put out by OpenMobile, Android app developers do not need to repackage their apps in any way for them to work with the ACL system. So, HP could actually update their App Catalog to allow Android apps to be sold and downloaded via the HP Catalog, and enter into a revenue sharing agreement with OpenMobile.

Android developers could then submit their apps directly to HP for inclusion in the HP App Catalog. Then when an Android App is sold, HP gets their cut, OpenMobile gets their cut, we get the apps we need, and everyone's happy. For the majority of Android app developers this would be a no brainer, as they don't need to change anything. The exact same app that they are submitting to the Google Market and Amazon App Store is what they would be submitting to HP - all they have to do is fill out another submission form, and they get instant access not only to a million new customers, but a million new customers who have been starving for apps and might just be ready to go on a shopping spree.
or have an android tab/selection so the webOS selection isnt cluttered up.
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Old 02/25/2012, 11:22 AM   #22 (permalink)
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or have an android tab/selection so the webOS selection isnt cluttered up.
For sure, there are plenty things that can be done to avoid clutter. They could separate them into another section, or give us a toggle option. They could give native webOS apps the priority in listings and searches. They could allow you to filter apps out by user ratings and/or number of purchases.

Lastly though, let me just add in that in my opinion, this idea of the android app stores being so filled with nonsense apps that you can't find the good stuff is very inaccurate, misleading, and quite frankly a sort of nonsense. I've bought quite a few apps from both Amazon's Apps Store and the Google Market, and haven't had much trouble finding the good ones. For starters, they present the most popular apps right in front of you when you open up the markets. You can order the results by ratings. Also, there are plenty of websites where apps are reviewed and you can get a good idea of what should be on your shortlist before you even open up the app stores.

I think those who are complaining that there's so much that they can't find what they're looking for aren't looking very hard, don't have a clue how to look, or are just browsing aimlessly without really knowing what they're want. It's not any harder to find what you're looking for in the app stores than it is to find what you're looking for on Download.com, SourceForge, Tucows, or any of the other popular places people have been getting software from for ages.
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Old 02/25/2012, 11:30 AM   #23 (permalink)
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ive mentioned it before in a few posts, but yeah theres lots of apps, but i pass over even high rated apps when i find those same apps want total access to your personal stored details/emails/etc. I wouldnt care but sometimes even the paid for variant of the free apps they have dont even remove the dodgey stuff.

Id only use this ACL thing happily if it could stop the crappy android apps from doing as they wish, otherwise its back to checking every blasted permission the apps want until you find the rare good few that want only bare minimum basics they should need.

Ive not tried iOS properly before hands-on, only seen other showing me it, but so far android doesnt fill me with confidence when it comes to data protection, its bad enough webpages, spam emails and other dodgey stuff trying to leech all your details but then apps people want to use end up stabbing them in the back as well.

My only hope when webOS is utterly open/free in its upcoming new facelift that it doesnt adopt any of this garbage phishing at the OS or app level.
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Old 02/25/2012, 11:39 AM   #24 (permalink)
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For sure, there are plenty things that can be done to avoid clutter. They could separate them into another section, or give us a toggle option. They could give native webOS apps the priority in listings and searches. They could allow you to filter apps out by user ratings and/or number of purchases.

Lastly though, let me just add in that in my opinion, this idea of the android app stores being so filled with nonsense apps that you can't find the good stuff is very inaccurate, misleading, and quite frankly a sort of nonsense. I've bought quite a few apps from both Amazon's Apps Store and the Google Market, and haven't had much trouble finding the good ones. For starters, they present the most popular apps right in front of you when you open up the markets. You can order the results by ratings. Also, there are plenty of websites where apps are reviewed and you can get a good idea of what should be on your shortlist before you even open up the app stores.

I think those who are complaining that there's so much that they can't find what they're looking for aren't looking very hard, don't have a clue how to look, or are just browsing aimlessly without really knowing what they're want. It's not any harder to find what you're looking for in the app stores than it is to find what you're looking for on Download.com, SourceForge, Tucows, or any of the other popular places people have been getting software from for ages.
I think the problem is really entirely different -- You can -only- find the "most popular" apps on the Android Market, because the search system is pretty much completely useless -- it has an extreme bias towards locating Google apps over all others, and "most popular" apps next, with what appears to be reverse date-of -submission ordering for anything else, so the longer an app has been around ,the more it will come up. In many cases, even searching for the exact name of an application will never locate it.

Therefore, the only apps you'll pretty much ever find on the Market are apps with 5 digit download numbers or better. And those will always remain on the top of the list, unless someone comes out with something absolutely stunning and manages to make waves with links to it from outside the market.

Also, a crap ton of Android apps would likely just fail on webOS, due to a lot of the stuff they try to do being absolutely denied by webOS's security system.
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(1:39:33 PM) halfhalo: Android multitasking is like sticking your fingers into a blender
GO OPEN WEBOS!
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Old 02/25/2012, 01:06 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Also, a crap ton of Android apps would likely just fail on webOS, due to a lot of the stuff they try to do being absolutely denied by webOS's security system.
if that happened, tbh i wouldnt complain, id see that as a good thing.
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Old 02/25/2012, 01:11 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Also, a crap ton of Android apps would likely just fail on webOS, due to a lot of the stuff they try to do being absolutely denied by webOS's security system.
Yeah, and that right there is the reason I don't buy ACL's claim that "it can run every single Android app period" (paraphrasing). Even PDK apps don't have access to everything. I suspect the only way it would ever work at all is as a com.palm namespace app, and that would only be allowed if it WAS distributed by HP directly, not direct to users. I just can't see this ever happening.
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Old 02/25/2012, 02:04 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Also, a crap ton of Android apps would likely just fail on webOS, due to a lot of the stuff they try to do being absolutely denied by webOS's security system.
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Yeah, and that right there is the reason I don't buy ACL's claim that "it can run every single Android app period" (paraphrasing). Even PDK apps don't have access to everything. I suspect the only way it would ever work at all is as a com.palm namespace app, and that would only be allowed if it WAS distributed by HP directly, not direct to users. I just can't see this ever happening.
But in cases like that, doesn't the 'problem' become self regulating? Won't apps that are requesting unreasonable permissions fail to install, get bad reviews as a result, and make it easy for us to filter them out? And won't HP's submission process involve checking the apps anyway, and so most of these apps that are requesting unapproved permissions won't even make it past them and get into the Catalog in the first place? That's what Apple does for its App Store - generally apps that attempt to make API calls that are not approved for public apps are screened out during the submission process and never make it onto the app store, and even those that manage to slip by are discovered later and get removed.

Last edited by marcedhk; 02/25/2012 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 02/25/2012, 03:02 PM   #28 (permalink)
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But in cases like that, doesn't the 'problem' become self regulating? Won't apps that are requesting unreasonable permissions fail to install, get bad reviews as a result.
doesnt work in the android world, ppl i know just hear an app name and blindly install it, or only read part of teh description.
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Old 02/25/2012, 04:06 PM   #29 (permalink)
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doesnt work in the android world, ppl i know just hear an app name and blindly install it, or only read part of teh description.
The thing is apps here are ridiculously expensive in comparison to Android. A typical good quality app in android can be free, while here it's usually priced at $3 or even more. Therefore, you can here use price as a quality indicator, but in android, good ones and bad ones are priced the same, so it's hard(er) to know if an app is good or bad before installing it.
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Old 02/25/2012, 04:47 PM   #30 (permalink)
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The thing is apps here are ridiculously expensive in comparison to Android. A typical good quality app in android can be free, while here it's usually priced at $3 or even more. Therefore, you can here use price as a quality indicator, but in android, good ones and bad ones are priced the same, so it's hard(er) to know if an app is good or bad before installing it.
agreed, im 1 of the ones btw whos quite happy to pay more for an identical product to android/ios, i feel lucky any major commercial dev team would bother making a port, but its not a universal thing as we saw with splashtop, many saying they would pay anything to get the productivity they needed, then when released a crapton of ppl moaned about its price reductions nto logn after launch and the fact it didnt match androids app price.

insane tbh.
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Old 02/25/2012, 05:45 PM   #31 (permalink)
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The thing is apps here are ridiculously expensive in comparison to Android. A typical good quality app in android can be free, while here it's usually priced at $3 or even more. Therefore, you can here use price as a quality indicator, but in android, good ones and bad ones are priced the same, so it's hard(er) to know if an app is good or bad before installing it.
From what I gather, the Android users tend to be pretty stingy on the money. Tons of free open source available too, although imo, the quality of most open source programs is significantly lacking compared to apps where people actually make money on them. User interface is just terrible on most open source products ,too - just look at Android itself. It's a franken-thing. Even Google can't seem to make any apps that have a common UI. Also the vast majority of the apps are built for phones.

A client that I've done some work for has a free Android app with in-app purchases, and a $7 iOS app with the same in-app purchases. Last I'd heard, their Android revenue was within "a minor rounding error" of being zero when compared to their iOS revenue, even though the number of users is an order of magnitude higher.
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(1:39:33 PM) halfhalo: Android multitasking is like sticking your fingers into a blender
GO OPEN WEBOS!
People asked me for a donate link for my non-catalog work, so here you are:
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Old 02/26/2012, 02:39 PM   #32 (permalink)
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I am eagerly awaiting the possibility of running a sonos app on my TP, have you received the call from the CEO yet, or is he going to call you later in the evening.
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Old 02/28/2012, 08:27 AM   #33 (permalink)
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I am eagerly awaiting the possibility of running a sonos app on my TP, have you received the call from the CEO yet, or is he going to call you later in the evening.
Would also love more news, but wow things are slow moving and nothing happens quick anymore. I'm still hopeful and looking forward to OpenMobile support especially since they've already made headway in webOS' direction!!!

Thanks for the support OpenMobile and show webOS some love and you'll get my support! Sorli...
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Old 02/28/2012, 12:18 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Sadly guys, Open Mobile has not called me yet! I have just emailed them today expressing my interest in talking to them in the future. I have also passed on some information that I have picked up just being here @ webosnation.

Hopefully Anita gets back to me again.
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Old 02/28/2012, 02:26 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Sadly guys, Open Mobile has not called me yet! I have just emailed them today expressing my interest in talking to them in the future. I have also passed on some information that I have picked up just being here @ webosnation.

Hopefully Anita gets back to me again.
Thanks for the update. I know a lot of folks (myself included) are interested in this going forward. Of course, OpenMobile needs assistance from HP, so certainly adds some complexity to their plans. Supposedly, OpenMobile almost had a deal worked out when Richard Kerris was still head of Developer Relations at HP (before Leopocalypse/Black Friday) but, since then, HP has had a lot of changes.
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Old 03/02/2012, 09:47 AM   #36 (permalink)
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In short: HP's webOS business unit simply no longer has even close to the manpower for this. The folks that are left are almost completely in engineering Open webOS itself as far as I've been made aware and a skeleton crew's operating the App Catalog system from top to bottom. And it'd all be moot when someone inevitably figures out how to sideload the Android Market itself onto the device.
No argument from me re the resources, as even if they still have sufficient manpower to get this done, the turbulence resulting from such a large number of layoffs/reassignments will likely make things chaotic for months to come. Bad timing yet again, it seems.

Re the sideloading of the Google Market though, I don't see it as a major issue, for 3 reasons:

1) OpenMobile's software could likely govern app installation
If I'm understanding things correctly, the installation of an app purchased from an app market would have to be performed by the ACL software, due to the differences between the Android and webOS environments, settings, etc. As such, OpenMobile could likely restrict the implementation to only install apps coming from the HP App Catalog

2) The motivation to sidestep the HP App Catalog would be low.
The vast majority of people who'll be interested in this are those that like webOS and want to stick with it, as those that don't care already have a very stable alternative in Cyanogenmod's CM9 implementation, and CM9 is being continuously improved. Those that want webOS to continue to exist, and want to be able to have Android apps inside webOS are unlikely to turn around and buy an app they want in a manner that cuts out the very people they are depending on to keep webOS afloat and keep the Android apps flowing - even if HP had to do something like add a $1 premium to each app sold in order to cover the additional costs and give OpenMobile their cut. I could see people sidestepping in cases where the developer of an Android app they really want hasn't gotten around to, or can't be bothered to submit their app to HP, but for the rest of the apps they want, if they are in the HP App Catalog, that's where they'll buy them.

3) There's a tradeoff to sidestepping the HP App Catalog
As some mentioned above, they expect some apps will fail to install due to permissions they are going to require which webOS will not grant them. So if you're sidestepping the App Catalog, you're possibly going to be doing a lot of trial and error if it turns out that a lot of apps have that issue.
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Old 03/02/2012, 10:39 AM   #37 (permalink)
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No argument from me re the resources, as even if they still have sufficient manpower to get this done, the turbulence resulting from such a large number of layoffs/reassignments will likely make things chaotic for months to come. Bad timing yet again, it seems.

Re the sideloading of the Google Market though, I don't see it as a major issue, for 3 reasons:

1) OpenMobile's software could likely govern app installation
If I'm understanding things correctly, the installation of an app purchased from an app market would have to be performed by the ACL software, due to the differences between the Android and webOS environments, settings, etc. As such, OpenMobile could likely restrict the implementation to only install apps coming from the HP App Catalog

2) The motivation to sidestep the HP App Catalog would be low.
The vast majority of people who'll be interested in this are those that like webOS and want to stick with it, as those that don't care already have a very stable alternative in Cyanogenmod's CM9 implementation, and CM9 is being continuously improved. Those that want webOS to continue to exist, and want to be able to have Android apps inside webOS are unlikely to turn around and buy an app they want in a manner that cuts out the very people they are depending on to keep webOS afloat and keep the Android apps flowing - even if HP had to do something like add a $1 premium to each app sold in order to cover the additional costs and give OpenMobile their cut. I could see people sidestepping in cases where the developer of an Android app they really want hasn't gotten around to, or can't be bothered to submit their app to HP, but for the rest of the apps they want, if they are in the HP App Catalog, that's where they'll buy them.

3) There's a tradeoff to sidestepping the HP App Catalog
As some mentioned above, they expect some apps will fail to install due to permissions they are going to require which webOS will not grant them. So if you're sidestepping the App Catalog, you're possibly going to be doing a lot of trial and error if it turns out that a lot of apps have that issue.
I honestly want Open Mobile for Hulu, Netfix & maybe 1 or 2 other apps (not entirely sure if Android has Madden football or not..)

But, the more time that passes by, the less hope I have this will happen.. 1. People keep getting laid off from webOS and 2.. The president of Open Mobile can't be to serious if he never called me after he said he would. Especially after the information that I gave them in return.
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Old 03/02/2012, 10:54 AM   #38 (permalink)
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do you think ACL apps would be sandboxed?
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Old 03/02/2012, 11:02 AM   #39 (permalink)
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But, the more time that passes by, the less hope I have this will happen.. 1. People keep getting laid off from webOS and 2.. The president of Open Mobile can't be to serious if he never called me after he said he would. Especially after the information that I gave them in return.
Possibly, bad timing yet again. For them to be seriously revisiting this means that they must be talking to someone at HP, so perhaps he found out last week about the next round of cuts to the webOS department (or more likely was just told to hold off for a couple weeks and not told why). I'd say give it a couple weeks for the dust to settle over at HP and then check back to see what OpenMobile's outlook is then.

Waiting yet again. Man, this whole webOS thing must be a challenge from God to help me develop more patience!!!
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Old 03/02/2012, 01:00 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Please Read.. Help me out w/ some things to discuss before I call.

Dear Matthew,

Thank you so much for your continued support of OpenMobile and our ACL technology. As you know, we are very eager to make your hopes of Apps on webOS a reality. As this is a hot topic in our offices, I took the liberty of sharing your email with Bob Angelo, OpenMobile's CEO, this morning. He would very much appreciate speaking with you one-on-one this afternoon, and asked if you would be kind enough to give him a call this: xxx-xxx-xxxx (cell phone - please don't distribute this number elsewhere). Perhaps you could also share more information about your friend and the online petition during your conversation.

Bob is looking forward to speaking with you! Thank you again for your support!
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