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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by sq5 View Post
    Some food for thought...I'd wager that under a payment model embracing the trial idea you find so abhorrent, the number of garbage movies would dwindle in a hurry, and consumer confidence would go up.
    Not sure where you got the impression that I find trials abhorrent since I offer trials on several of my apps.

    The only trials I have a problem with are ones distributed by others without getting consent from the copyright owner (i.e. pirating).
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  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by sq5 View Post
    You're almost forgetting that most people are happy to pay. Apple is rolling in itunes dollars where other players failed in part because of their easy preview and purchase model.
    I agree completely that most people are happy to pay. However I believe that most people that pirate apps/music/movies do not do it to "try before you buy". They do it to get something for free.
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  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by jessicatapley View Post
    Again, this is just silly rationalization. It's great that people are willing to pay, and it's great if they go back and legally purchase music they pirated at an earlier time, but IT DOES NOT ERASE THE FACT THAT THEY PIRATED.

    It's an unethical (illegal) act REGARDLESS OF THE MOTIVATION BEHIND IT. You are helping yourself to someone's work/intellectual property without compensating them. It is wrong, wrong, wrong. Even if you "slide them some money" later on....that's still wrong. Try walking out of Best Buy with a Macbook Pro while explaining to the security guard upfront that you are willing to pay but just wanna make sure that this really meets your needs and then you PROMISE to pay for it.
    Wow, you really just trotted out the old "stealing a laptop" straw man? THIS is just silly rationalization on so many levels to cram the situation into the box that conveniently fits your definition.
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  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by jessicatapley View Post
    Appropriating intellectual property under YOUR terms instead of the terms offered by the author is just as wrong. There is no rationalization for it. None. Not even if you pinky swear to pay later IF it meets your needs.
    By your wrong-is-wrong rationale, the OP shouldn't have bothered to pay at all then. The harm was already done in your book and he is damned. Once again, you're missing the point that had a trial been available, the OP's actions would have been irrelevant. The dev made a sale from the OP that he otherwise wouldn't have, demonstrating the value a trial version of the app would have to the larger audience.
    Last edited by sq5; 02/07/2012 at 11:09 AM.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by DanPLC View Post
    I agree completely that most people are happy to pay. However I believe that most people that pirate apps/music/movies do not do it to "try before you buy". They do it to get something for free.
    I do agree with you there of course. I'm trying to wave the reminder flag that most != all, and point out that some of those "pirates" like the OP can be willingly converted to buyers more easily.
    Last edited by sq5; 02/07/2012 at 11:15 AM.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by DanPLC View Post
    Not sure where you got the impression that I find trials abhorrent since I offer trials on several of my apps.

    The only trials I have a problem with are ones distributed by others without getting consent from the copyright owner (i.e. pirating).
    Hat's off to you then. Many other devs would further benefit from doing the same.
  7. #47  
    People here tend to look low people that use pirate app. So I think so be it. Piracy is not right anyway. But you must know that piracy coexist with the legal one. It is like shadow that always follow you wherever you go. Real life wasn't perfect. It is far bitter then we want and we thought. You can get mad or even rage because of piracy, but none of you can do to erase them 100%. Piracy is about mental and self decision, not about right or wrong. You can say it is wrong in law, but still lots of people justified it by their own reasons. So why we even talk about this?
    Will this kind of discussion have a solution? I bet no. This will more torn webOS community apart.

    So to webOS developers and people who sick to death with piracy. Keep that thought for you, and it will be your guidance for your life to never do use or touch piracy stuff.

    To people that use pirated app / music / movie or whatever. If you feel good with it, so be it, it is your choice and decision. But if you still have some good will to 'pay' what you use / get, then just do it. Don't justify anything. It is just up to you. Don't do that because people look low about you. Pay if you want, and do it because your heart tell you to do.

    I read many analogy and arguments above and none of them make sense to me. And I bet all people know that the world we live is always black and white. If people in this world always do the right thing, then we maybe already in heaven.
    Last edited by The Bard; 02/07/2012 at 11:34 AM.
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  8. #48  
    WARNING:
    People... If members cannot discuss without insulting other members - simply move to another thread. Any more personal insults will cause accounts to be Infracted and/or the thread to be closed. Please keep the discussions away from personal attacks. Thank you.


    <<thread cleansed>>
  9. #49  
    All of us on the forum would love nothing more than to see our devs prosper, so open your eyes. One would think you would want to do all you could to convert every possible sale on this platform. Otherwise feel free the cling to your terms of service and myopically self-defined ethics like a security blanket. In the mean time you can cry poor at lost purchases and wonder why. Your loss. I'm disappointed at the dogmatic inflexibility and disdain shown towards users here.
    Last edited by sq5; 02/07/2012 at 12:05 PM.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by sledge007 View Post
    (I've spent more, $6, on crappy onion rings from an A&W drive-thru, and couldn't be bothered to turn around and "get what I paid for"......at least with an app there's a potential of an update....onion rings there's a potential for a garbage can.)
    Hay, there is a potential for an update on the onion rings, you might even get to taste em a second time....
    I love physical keyboards... but there is two devices that would make me consider a slab, one is something running a full version of Open webOS. The other is an iPhone!!!! HA HA just kidding (about the iPhone that is)...
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  11. #51  
    I'd comment but going with the theory that "Opinions are like a______s. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks" so keeping mine to myself, Some subjects any comment is basically troll food. I'll just say human nature is interesting, how folks behave when nobody knows vs when it is known, and how the mind can justify it.
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  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by jessicatapley View Post
    I'm disgusted at the flexibility of moral compasses these days. Mighty big of someone to pay for a pirated app IF it met their needs and when THEY were ready to pay. Totally makes everything ok.
    Good grief, nobody is generally ADVOCATING the OP's actions outright. (Give the guy at least a shred of credit on your moral compass though for honoring the dev by purchasing ultimately. Typical pirates would never, and it sounds like he just as well could have kept using his unpaid copy in order to get his fill.)

    ONCE AGAIN, the point here is that what the OP did should put be an indicator to devs that having trial versions of apps, in the absence on an app store with a return policy, could convert at least many would-be "pirates" into happy paid customers.
    Last edited by sq5; 02/07/2012 at 12:36 PM.
  13. #53  
    For all the people bashing the movie analogy, letís put it another way. Letís compare it to your job and how you get paid. For independent developers, who rely on app sales as part of their income, they put in hours, weeks, months writing code & developing these apps. Once itís complete they release it for X amount of dollars and expect to be compensated for it. They agree to let you use their product, and benefit from the time and work they put into it, in exchange for you paying them.

    In the same way, you go to your job and agree to work 40 hrs a week, with the expectation that you will be compensated for your talents & efforts. Now imagine, if after 2 weeks, and 80hrs of work, your employer says: well you know what; I really just wanted a free-trial of your efforts. After 2 weeks, I donít think weíll need your services anymore, and I donít feel like I should pay you for the work youíve put in. Iím sure you would agree thatís a problem. Even if they no longer need/want you as an employee, they still need to pay you for the work you put in.

    Just like you go to work for an employer, with the expectation that you will get paid for your work, and the value you bring to their company/organization, an app developer goes to work for you. You (the customer) are their employer. They put in the hours of coding, creating applications to bring value to you & your digital lives, with the expectation that you will compensate them for it. If they decide they want to ďvolunteerĒ their time (so to speak) they will make the app free. But since they are charging for it, they expect payment in exchange for you using it, plain & simple.

    Any excuse or justification you give is irrelevant. Just tell it like it is. If you donít value the work that developers put into creating apps, and you donít feel you should pay for it, just admit that. Donít try to justify getting paid apps for free. They apps are clearly labeled with a price tag in the catalog.
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  14. #54  
    Jess, look... I understand you point, and this is the "point" from somebody that have all resources, that have all advantages.

    When you change to other side, you have other ways to look.

    Let's gonna leave you know an example: our President was an actvist against the dictadorship, and was involved in an event that resulted in one death (soldier).

    In that years, she was considered guilty and has a difficult life for this.

    After all, now she is our President and is making a greatest working, cleaning our government from many corrupted politician!

    So... the pirate today can be one of the best customers tomorrow! Treat somebody as a citizen, that man can reply being a citizen, but treat somebody as a thief and that gonna live as a thief. Not all, I know... but somebody have more chance to learn with somebody helping than with somebody punishing...

    People here tend to look low people that use pirate app. So I think so be it. Piracy is not right anyway. But you must know that piracy coexist with the legal one. It is like shadow that always follow you wherever you go. Real life wasn't perfect. It is far bitter then we want and we thought. You can get mad or even rage because of piracy, but none of you can do to erase them 100%. Piracy is about mental and self decision, not about right or wrong. You can say it is wrong in law, but still lots of people justified it by their own reasons. So why we even talk about this?
    Will this kind of discussion have a solution? I bet no. This will more torn webOS community apart.

    So to webOS developers and people who sick to death with piracy. Keep that thought for you, and it will be your guidance for your life to never do use or touch piracy stuff.

    To people that use pirated app / music / movie or whatever. If you feel good with it, so be it, it is your choice and decision. But if you still have some good will to 'pay' what you use / get, then just do it. Don't justify anything. It is just up to you. Don't do that because people look low about you. Pay if you want, and do it because your heart tell you to do.

    I read many analogy and arguments above and none of them make sense to me. And I bet all people know that the world we live is always black and white. If people in this world always do the right thing, then we maybe already in heaven.
    Dude... I cannot say in better words...


    Best Regards...
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  15. Balooz's Avatar
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    #55  
    I guess I'm an app pirate, but I had a reason. Is that okay I use that in courts? I murdered, plundered, and raped, but I had a reason.....
  16. #56  
    I for one have gone back to the box office at a theater and gotten my money back [or usually a credit for another movie when, like 30 minutes or less, the movie sucks HUGELY.

    Also, I believe in share-ware/trial-ware. It doesn't always work though. Some 'trial' versions are so limped by the trial, that you cannot get any feel for the quality of the paid product. I would rather see fully functional, while limited time trial vs unlimited trial with severely limited function.

    If devs want more people to try their products, this is the better way. Some devs don't have and trial or free versions for whatever reason. Then the customer has to decide if interest overcomes budget
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  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by Smartfah View Post
    For all the people bashing the movie analogy, letís put it another way. Letís compare it to your job and how you get paid. For independent developers, who rely on app sales as part of their income, they put in hours, weeks, months writing code & developing these apps. Once itís complete they release it for X amount of dollars and expect to be compensated for it. They agree to let you use their product, and benefit from the time and work they put into it, in exchange for you paying them.

    In the same way, you go to your job and agree to work 40 hrs a week, with the expectation that you will be compensated for your talents & efforts. Now imagine, if after 2 weeks, and 80hrs of work, your employer says: well you know what; I really just wanted a free-trial of your efforts. After 2 weeks, I donít think weíll need your services anymore, and I donít feel like I should pay you for the work youíve put in. Iím sure you would agree thatís a problem. Even if they no longer need/want you as an employee, they still need to pay you for the work you put in.

    Just like you go to work for an employer, with the expectation that you will get paid for your work, and the value you bring to their company/organization, an app developer goes to work for you. You (the customer) are their employer. They put in the hours of coding, creating applications to bring value to you & your digital lives, with the expectation that you will compensate them for it. If they decide they want to ďvolunteerĒ their time (so to speak) they will make the app free. But since they are charging for it, they expect payment in exchange for you using it, plain & simple.

    Any excuse or justification you give is irrelevant. Just tell it like it is. If you donít value the work that developers put into creating apps, and you donít feel you should pay for it, just admit that. Donít try to justify getting paid apps for free. They apps are clearly labeled with a price tag in the catalog.
    I don't think anybody wants to argue with you about that. I'm sure we all agree that nobody should expect paid apps for free. That's not what the thread was really about though.
  18. #58  
    One thing that I can't quite get my head around is the new Apple Cloud music storage thing

    Almost everyone I have spoke to who uses this is quite happy to pay Apple a yearly fee which they are calling 'pirate fees'

    Essentially you have a large collection of illegal mp3's you upload them to Apple, they in return for a yearly fee (20 dollars or something similar) will then replace them all for higher bitrate versions if available with no questions asked on the source of the users mp3's

    This is appearing to give the users a clear conscience of having hundreds / thousands of illegal songs / albums

    How does this model actually work, and how can Apple justify it ?

    I believe Google Music will turn a blind eye too with no fee payable unless someone reports a user
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by jessicatapley View Post
    Take that to its logical conclusion. Thieves who don't pay at any price regardless of how useful the software is they pirate should be an indicator that an app that is offered on a voluntary donation basis or strictly through ad support will convert these pirates (no quotes needed) into legal "customers".

    That's the great thing about rationalizing illicit activity: you can justify pretty much anything.
    Interesting conclusion, except that it's not a logical conclusion, because now you're outside the paid app model altogether. However you make a good point...Lots of devs do ad supported apps with much success, and of course that kind of app can't really be pirated. But, that has little bearing on curbing the issue of pirating paid apps. Of course the people that just want to take the paid apps for nothing are indeed pirates ("no quotes needed"). You will almost never capture them as customers under the paid app model, but this is another discussion entirely.

    That's the thing about clinging to the letter of the law, so to speak: its so easy to try and hide behind it.
    Last edited by sq5; 02/07/2012 at 01:08 PM.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by Balooz View Post
    I guess I'm an app pirate, but I had a reason. Is that okay I use that in courts? I murdered, plundered, and raped, but I had a reason.....
    Actually yes. There are what are called affirmative defenses. I've seen cases of it.

    some examples-

    murder: self-defense
    plunder: emergency necessity, defense of others
    rape: duress (very rare, but still on the books)

    The world is not black and white folks. Lets not digress though.
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