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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Bard View Post
    That's why like I said above. It is wiser if we can have a legit copy of the app after we do donation. We can update the app via software manager, and don't need again to go 'off track' by using illegal stuff. If we only donate but still keep left in the dark, why we need to donate? We won't get any update or support from developer anyway.
    That part isn't the developers fault.

    The donation would be because you are taking advantage of the developers hard work. If you want the other things I would suggest petitioning HP for better ways to purchase apps and/or better policys so developers can legitimately sell their apps outside the app catalog.
    I love physical keyboards... but there is two devices that would make me consider a slab, one is something running a full version of Open webOS. The other is an iPhone!!!! HA HA just kidding (about the iPhone that is)...
  2. #62  
    *cough* secure Preware repo *cough cough*
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by Walhalla2k View Post
    Non supported country.. no other way to get applications :-(
    I guess this could be considered valid if I had no other option, which I don't since moving to Android has already been done, but HP does need to open things up and at least make it easier for buyers to purchase software. At least in the States we can decide...

    Never realized how complicated buying software is overseas. Yikes that has to suck and for me moving to Android opened the door to more apps and more open software distribution. Good option for anyone motivated! Sorli...
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by tholap View Post
    I know what you are trying to say - but you are not quite correct. Sure - devs don't have to work on every single copy - distribution in the digital age is almost (not quite) costless. But that's already part of the price. If a dev had to work on your own digital copy you would have to pay thousands of dollars to make it worthwhile.

    Let's apply your logic to a non-virtual deal. Let's say you want to sell a property - could be a house, a piece of land, artwork - whatever. You research the market value and find out it should fetch around $x (+/- some reasonable range). You advertise the property and wait for bids to come in when it turns out that Mr. P spreads the rumor that your property is faulty/fake. Bids stay low and in the end you can only get a 20th of $x.

    According to your logic you haven't lost anything due to Mr. P's actions.

    Of course there is a "loss" - or rather unrealized potential income.

    When the media industry whines about piracy and makes up stories about how actors will starve and nobody will ever see a movie again they are exaggerating. A large percentage of the "losses" claimed are fictional. But that doesn't change the fact that some parts of the "losses" are real. Sales that otherwise would have happened - were it not for piracy.

    We shouldn't sacrifice other important freedoms (see SOPA/PIPA/DMCA/ACTA, etc...) for that - but some part of the losses are very real.

    Sure - in some cases the some pirated copies turn out to be ads for the developer in the end. But that only works if eventually some decent percentage actually gets paid for in the end.

    If you use an app - just pay the dirt-cheap $5. The amount of making-up-excuses to save a few bucks is ridiculous.
    I agree with gamer. If you wish to compare this to a real transaction, then you must have tangible product to represent with costs that protrude. Yes, your time is essentially that source of cost, but you as the creator of the apps, do you have an intellectual property agreement on your applications? Is the Catalog used as such an agreement?

    Furthermore, how did you learn to make these products you have on the catalog? Merely an inquisitive question to you.

    Much like me driving to work, there are assumed risks that YOU must take on because you weigh the pros and cons to said action. You must assume that no purchases will come from your applications, and instead start there. Why? Because if you don't assume the worst case scenario and plan for it, then you're ill prepared for the car accident that comes maybe not today, but at some point.
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by OldSkoolVWLover View Post
    The intent of his post is for the many (you can see many in this thread) that say they are forced to pirate because of HP/Palm app catalog restrictions. He and other developers are attempting to give a way for those folks that say they are forced to pirate to rightfully pay for the app that HP restrictions keep them from being able to buy.

    This is basically removing the *excuse* from those users that say they have no option to pay for the apps because for XYZ reason their country/profile/etc doesn't have access to these paid apps.
    If that is the true intent, then it's probably not a good idea for him to antagonise said people by the inflammatory wording chosen, i.e. "having trouble sleeping because you practically robbed me" - so I'm not convinced.
    Dogma and The Bard like this.
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashenn View Post
    If that is the true intent, then it's probably not a good idea for him to antagonise said people by the inflammatory wording chosen, i.e. "having trouble sleeping because you practically robbed me" - so I'm not convinced.
    That's what I thought when I first read the OP's post. I understand why he would be upset, but his tone makes it difficult to see why anyone would feel "guilty" enough to donate.
    The Bard likes this.
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by antijingoist View Post
    *cough* secure Preware repo *cough cough*
    it doesn't matter, because as soon as an application is installed on a user's device the source code is immediately available and anybody w/ moderate knowledge can figure out how to copy it..
    Neo Enyo 2.0 Twitter App: NOW AVAILABLE | WON REVIEW
    clearview - clear card app for HP TOUCHPAD
    Wild'n Video Poker - AVAILABLE FOR ALL WEBOS DEVICES! | follow for latest updates - @fxspec06

  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by fxspec06 View Post
    it doesn't matter, because as soon as an application is installed on a user's device the source code is immediately available and anybody w/ moderate knowledge can figure out how to copy it..
    I meant, as a way of providing someone that donated here with an updating copy.

    Yes, the source is available immediately, but you can take steps to obscure the code and make it more difficult to copy. The question is, is all that trouble worth it? I don't think it is. I honestly believe that eventually, providers will settle on a business model not dependent on creating/maintaining artificial scarcity. When something becomes artificially scarce, it will always be pirated. You can count that as "lost sales," but I really doubt it would have become a sale.
    I'm not saying anyone must give away everything away for free, just saying we should really take a step back and rethink this thing.
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by OldSkoolVWLover View Post
    That part isn't the developers fault.

    The donation would be because you are taking advantage of the developers hard work. If you want the other things I would suggest petitioning HP for better ways to purchase apps and/or better policys so developers can legitimately sell their apps outside the app catalog.
    I have copy of glimpse, I use it very few times, and never use it lately. But I would gladly buy the legit one if there is a way. I will support webos devs that make good apps, and surely I want them to always update their app or make another good one.

    So If dev blame me because take advantage of their work, I admit it, but I won't just do donate and then I still have the copy version instead the legit one. I will donate same amount of $$ for glimpse if the dev can do something to solve non supported countries.
    Dev have problem with HP policy, same with we are users from non supported countries. We both feel the pain.

    Recently I can manage buy Archive Manager, I can do that because dev take action about my problem to buy his/her app via app catalog, not just stand still and follow HP policy. WebOS platform is sinking ship. Do we just wait till we sink together with the ship or die trying to find another way (at least) to save ourself?
  10. #70  
    I do have to wonder how / why there are so many people in these "unsupported countries".
    Author:
    Remove Messaging Beeps patch for webOS 3.0.5, Left/Right bezel gestures in LunaCE,
    Whazaa! Messenger and node-wa, SynerGV 1 and 2 - Google Voice integration, XO - Subsonic Commander media streamer, AB:S Launcher
    (1:39:33 PM) halfhalo: Android multitasking is like sticking your fingers into a blender
    GO OPEN WEBOS!
    People asked me for a donate link for my non-catalog work, so here you are:
  11. #71  
    I do have to wonder how / why there are so many people in these "unsupported countries".
    Compare how many countries are supported and how many countries there is in the world...

    Look, I live in Brazil, and economy that is bigger than Italy or Spain, but nor Palm or HP send NOTHING here, and we have NO access to App Catalog.

    Remembering that the Brazil is one of the MOST EXPENSIVE country of the world... with most expensive Big Mac, IPod, IPhone and many other things that are used when comparing economies in different countries...


    Best Regards...
    "If A Man Isn't Willing To Take Some Risk For His Opinions, Either His Opinions Are No Good Or He's No Good!" - Ezra Pound (Poet & Critic)
    (Happy A Lot, As A Good Carioca!)
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Bard View Post
    Recently I can manage buy Archive Manager, I can do that because dev take action about my problem to buy his/her app via app catalog, not just stand still and follow HP policy.
    I am not going to debate this issue further then to explain two things.

    s sorli said above, Android on TP is an option (not an option I have taken on any of my 3 TouchPads).

    Your solution to suggest the dev circumvent HP policy is not a far expectation, these developers have a vested interest in not breaking their CONTRACT with HP. I am not sure of all the actions HP could or may take, but if HP found a developer was breaking their agreement with HP, HP would be within their contractual rights to pull all of the developers apps from the official app catalog. This would result in a massive loss for the developer over selling a handful of copies outside of the catalog. There are also potential legal issues with distributing Enyo and other code outside of the developer agreement until it has been open sourced.

    I am not saying I don't understand the position you are in, but I still say you and other users should be contacting HP/Palm/Dev Relations, let them know there are markets that will make them money. They already know the developers want more money, clearly for whatever reason HP is doing a cost benefit analysis and feels their incurred costs are not worth the potential money they will make. Here's to hoping Open Source changes some of these issues.
    I love physical keyboards... but there is two devices that would make me consider a slab, one is something running a full version of Open webOS. The other is an iPhone!!!! HA HA just kidding (about the iPhone that is)...
    fxspec06 and CrushCrumble like this.
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashenn View Post
    If that is the true intent, then it's probably not a good idea for him to antagonise said people by the inflammatory wording chosen, i.e. "having trouble sleeping because you practically robbed me" - so I'm not convinced.
    I can say with 100% certainty that is the true intent.

    To give a little background, I do not have one app in the catalog and other than beta testing for multiple developers have contributed no actual content to any webOS application.

    The experience I do have is knowing these developers, I communicate with them via e-mail, the forums, and twitter. I know these folks as people and supporters of the community, not just as someone behind an app I may or may not use. I know these folks as homebrew developers that spend their time and energy to give us content at no cost and the hope of a possible donation. I've seen these folks spend 100's or 1000's of dollars on devices to develop on so they can give us the best content they possible. I've watched them go out and buy computers because they needed something more robust to develop on.

    This isn't the only developer that feels like they have been stolen from, just one of the few to post in the forums where you would see it (there are other posts in the forums if you are looking for them). I know multiple developers that have received donations from users in unsupported countries, I also know developers that have received support requests from people that have pirated their app (and not offered payment).



    I only posted the above to explain to newer users (or users that don't know me and don't know the developers) why I can unequivocally state I understand the intention of the OP. This post wasn't meant to put anyone down, just to explain why so many of us understand where this and many other developers frustration comes from.
    I love physical keyboards... but there is two devices that would make me consider a slab, one is something running a full version of Open webOS. The other is an iPhone!!!! HA HA just kidding (about the iPhone that is)...
    snoopgoat and fxspec06 like this.
  14. #74  
    That's why like I said above. It is wiser if we can have a legit copy of the app after we do donation. We can update the app via software manager, and don't need again to go 'off track' by using illegal stuff. If we only donate but still keep left in the dark, why we need to donate? We won't get any update or support from developer anyway.
    Because you are using the app he created with his hard work and time. And I'm sure if you donated you would still get some support.

    But the fact if the matter is that no-one even tries to contact the developer, to inquire on how to donate for the app. To my knowledge , they only seem to know how to contact the developer for support issues.
    Rather what people do , is they pirate the app and complain they have no other means. Contact the developer and let them know that you are willing to donate the purchase price of the app that you are about to/ or already have pirated, then explain/ask how support options could work in such a scenario.

    But as long as the excuses are there, there'll always be another to justify it further. Like the one quoted above.



    -- Sent from my TouchPad using Communities
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by ccx View Post
    so you are saying hp does not get a 'cut' from each app being sold?
    i was under the impression that was standard business practice, eg. apple etc.

    and i would think it WOULD matter, since, you know, hp should be trying to protect touchpad devlopers' products. But they dont, and havent. even if it was hosted in some other country, hp is a multi national company, i'm sure they have lawyers in every corner of the world.
    Of course HP gets a cut.
    And of course the total amount they made from app sales for webos is a fraction of a single peanut on their balance sheet not even beginning to cover their costs. That's HP's own fault for botching their platform - but doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day HP is not making any real money from this.

    And of course it's in HP's interest to protect TP devs.

    And of course you don't know why exactly HP is doing some things or why they don't do
    other things. You just claim to know based on what seemingly, so far, did or did not happen with regard to 1 site.

    I'm not a big fan of HP - but I think it's silly to assume that HP loves it when webos devs get screwed.
    It's more rational to assume that it was either not practical or not worthwhile to go after that one site. Or possibly that they already did and it just takes time to go through legal processes. Shrug. Whatever. I certainly don't know. I just don't jump to conclusions (much less the far fetched unreasonable ones).
    Pre -> Pre3 & TP32 -> Nexus 5
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Bard View Post
    So If dev blame me because take advantage of their work, I admit it, but I won't just do donate and then I still have the copy version instead the legit one. I will donate same amount of $$ for glimpse if the dev can do something to solve non supported countries.
    Dev have problem with HP policy, same with we are users from non supported countries. We both feel the pain.
    If you are in a country that's supported by app catalog then you simply get the legit copy by buying it through the catalog.
    If you are in an unsupported country then the dev cannot provide you with an auto-upgrading app because that's handled by the catalog. That's a technical limitation that HP is responsible for - not an individual dev.
    Sure he could somehow manually distribute "legit" update IPKs to customers - but that effort would cost more than the couple bucks most apps bring in per customer.

    OP only asked to be given some fair recompense for his work that gets actually used. If you feel that in your case, because of extra hassle you should pay less than the original price - fair enough. I guess devs will usually accept a somewhat reduced "donation" from those who can't get the full service. OTOH we're talking about trivial amounts of bucks.

    This discussion cost more money than a typical app costs. Why are we debating whether it's fair to send 2-5 bucks to somebody? This is ridiculous.

    (I'm not talking about people who are honestly dirt poor and have trouble paying their rent or where - due to exchange rates - a few bucks could be the equivalent of 50 in local buying power).
    Pre -> Pre3 & TP32 -> Nexus 5
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