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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by snoopgoat View Post
    Over the past two years I've lost thousands of dollars in app revenue due to people pirating my paid Apps.
    Is this the same formula that MPAA/RIAA uses to determine how much money they potentially lost? There's no real way to calculate that; it's arbitrary at best.


    If I helped you or you have downloaded one of my files,
    then least you could do is click the "Thanks" button.
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  2.    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Abyssul View Post
    Is this the same formula that MPAA/RIAA uses to determine how much money they potentially lost? There's no real way to calculate that; it's arbitrary at best.
    i don't know about MPAA. But for Apps, it's very easy if you have some metrics. So when I say I've lost thousands of dollars, I'm not being arbitrary or exaggerating...
    _____________________________________
    Inglorious Apps
    Developer of: Glimpse, Notes HD, Clipboard, Pix, Voices, Casa, Plickr, TweetCam, and Notes
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by snoopgoat View Post
    For the 20th time, developers cannot sell their apps outside the catalog. It's in the fine print. If kalemsoft is doing it, then they're probably not adhering to the rules..
    If I'm not mistaken, I think Kalemsoft gets around it by having two different apps.
    Author:
    Remove Messaging Beeps patch for webOS 3.0.5, Left/Right bezel gestures in LunaCE,
    Whazaa! Messenger and node-wa, SynerGV 1 and 2 - Google Voice integration, XO - Subsonic Commander media streamer, AB:S Launcher
    (1:39:33 PM) halfhalo: Android multitasking is like sticking your fingers into a blender
    GO OPEN WEBOS!
    People asked me for a donate link for my non-catalog work, so here you are:
  4. #24  
    Every promo code that palm gave away, paid the dev the same amount as an actual app sale

    -- Sent from my TouchPad using Communities
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Abyssul View Post
    Is this the same formula that MPAA/RIAA uses to determine how much money they potentially lost? There's no real way to calculate that; it's arbitrary at best.
    I think we all agree that developers, song artists, movie artists etc all lose money due to piracy.

    Whether it be $20 / month, $100 / month, $1,000 / month, or $10,000 / month, it's still money lost, and it's still negatively affecting the developer / artist, because it's not just a sale that WOULD have or DIDN'T happen..... it's a sale that WON'T happen. That's where the lost money comes in. If there's 1,000 potential buyers for an app, and 1 person offers it to 900 people for free, and 100 of those people 'pirate' it... that's a huge loss. There's 100 people who most likely won't pay for it (sure one or two will pay for it ... IF they "use it for more than a week"). Then there's 800 left over.. lets say 700 won't bother looking at it again, and 50 decide to buy it because they're interested.

    Out of 1,000 potential buyers, 100 have now pirated the app, 750 won't bother with it because they know they can get it for free, and 50 have actually bought it. The remaining 100 or so have not heard of the pirate version and therefore are still 'potential' buyers.

    Go ahead and adjust these numbers however you like, the actual sales numbers are most likely FAR lower than I present here, and the actual pirate numbers are most likely FAR higher than I present here.

    Then, go ahead and say that there isn't a problem. There is a problem, and it's a big problem.

    The grass is browner on the other side of the fence.
    Neo Enyo 2.0 Twitter App: NOW AVAILABLE | WON REVIEW
    clearview - clear card app for HP TOUCHPAD
    Wild'n Video Poker - AVAILABLE FOR ALL WEBOS DEVICES! | follow for latest updates - @fxspec06

    snoopgoat and deCorvett like this.
  6. #26  
    Not everyone that illegally loads an app would have ever bought it and may not even use it similar to what folks using promo codes often state. But there is some % of those who might have bought it. In the end you're better off buying with the best deal you can if you hope to get any support at all. I have seen some ballsy folks ask for support in getting an illegal download to work but don't typically have much luck from what I've seen. Either way, I know if I was a developer depending on, and deserving of, I wouldn't like it. On the other hand I'm not a big fan of draconian anti-piracy laws either as sometimes the cure can be worse than the disease.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by snoopgoat View Post
    i don't know about MPAA. But for Apps, it's very easy if you have some metrics. So when I say I've lost thousands of dollars, I'm not being arbitrary or exaggerating...
    It seems evident that it's an arbitary calculation - how otherwise have you calculated your losses? You may not want to give out your own 'metrics', but you could substitute some values in to whatever formula you're using.

    The losses through piracy are impossible to work out, and there are so many factors that just aren't considered. For example, many home users pirate Photoshop. That doesn't mean many of those copies are a lost sale. In fact, if they couldn't pirate it, they may have bought Paint Shop Pro instead - hence causing a loss to a completely different company. It could easily be argued that it benefits Adobe for casual users to use their products instead of their rivals.

    Of course, that doesn't apply to the same degree here, but it's just an example to show one of the many, many problems with getting any sort of figure for piracy losses.
  8. #28  
    I wouldn't call it money lost since you never had the money in the first place for it to even be considered "lost" or "taken away". You simply never made the money. When you sell an app, you "earn" money, when someone pirates your app, you didn't earn that money,you didn't lose it since no one went into your account and withdrew money. I personally haven't bought any webOS apps since, quite frankly, they don't look that appealing. The only apps I have are freebies, like Gun Bros, Angry Birds, Super Sudoku (Promo Code), Quick Sudoku (Promo Code), Splashtop (Promo code for most referrals), Box.net, Lithium Benchmark, Facebook and Amazon Kindle. I've considered pirating an app to try it, but in the end I decide it just isn't worth it and honestly, I don't think you deserve my money either.
    Devices:
    HP TouchPad WiFi 32 GB - webOS 3.0.5 + CyanogenMod 10.2 Kernel 3.0
    HP TouchPad 4G 32 GB - webOS 3.0.5 + CyanogenMod 10.1 MBM Beta
    HTC One (T-Mobile)
    Amazon Kindle Fire HD 7" 2012
    Apple iPhone 4 (Verizon)
  9. #29  
    * I think it's safe to assume that when a developer is concerned about pirated apps he isn't really worried about people who creatively aquire an app to test it and then buy it 15 minutes later

    * I think it's ridiculous how much people worry about 1-5$ apps - yet on the other hand spend the same amount on a cup of coffee at Starbucks (or other throw away stuff) without hesitation (and much more often).

    * OTOH metrics are not enough to calculate unrealized income from pirated apps. The fact that an app has been installed and even used a few times does not mean that a user would have bought it for the asked for price. Those metrics only provide the upper bound of what might have potentially been sales otherwise. The real value would have been below that. Problem is that it is hard to guess how much lower. Could be anything from 1-90%.

    * Making everything free and using ads is not a solution. Plenty of people (certainly I) prefer to pay a few bucks and not be bothered by ads.

    * If you are using an app (more than a couple of times) and you are not so dirt poor that you can't pay 1-5 bucks - you are ripping off the dev who invested time, creativity and effort into building that thing. Excuses like "who knows what happens with the platform" or "HP this" or "ebay that" or "my case cracked next to the speaker" don't count. None of that is the apps dev fault and none of that stopped you from using said app.

    * That HP was slow or utterly failed to add many countries to the app catalog in time - or that devs overlooked to change the apps data is a PITA. In such cases nobody is harmed if you aquire the apps in another way. But be fair and check whether the dev has a donate button.

    * People are very creative in making up excuses for what they want to do - even if they fundamentally know that what they do isn't quite kosher.

    * If I'm supposed to pay 20+ or perhaps even hundreds of bucks for a product it's important that I can test it - or that there is a money-back guarantee. But when an app only costs .99 or 1.99 - shrug. That's such small change. Considering what we pay for a smartphone and the monthly fees for using the network - paying a total of 10$ for 5-10 apps that turned out to be crap - so what. That's not a real problem.

    (the "you" above means any random reader - not anybody specific in this thread)
    Pre -> Pre3 & TP32 -> Nexus 5
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by fxspec06 View Post
    I think we all agree that developers, song artists, movie artists etc all lose money due to piracy.

    Whether it be $20 / month, $100 / month, $1,000 / month, or $10,000 / month, it's still money lost, and it's still negatively affecting the developer / artist, because it's not just a sale that WOULD have or DIDN'T happen..... it's a sale that WON'T happen. That's where the lost money comes in. If there's 1,000 potential buyers for an app, and 1 person offers it to 900 people for free, and 100 of those people 'pirate' it... that's a huge loss. There's 100 people who most likely won't pay for it (sure one or two will pay for it ... IF they "use it for more than a week"). Then there's 800 left over.. lets say 700 won't bother looking at it again, and 50 decide to buy it because they're interested.

    Out of 1,000 potential buyers, 100 have now pirated the app, 750 won't bother with it because they know they can get it for free, and 50 have actually bought it. The remaining 100 or so have not heard of the pirate version and therefore are still 'potential' buyers.

    Go ahead and adjust these numbers however you like, the actual sales numbers are most likely FAR lower than I present here, and the actual pirate numbers are most likely FAR higher than I present here.

    Then, go ahead and say that there isn't a problem. There is a problem, and it's a big problem.

    The grass is browner on the other side of the fence.
    Did you go around polling for those numbers? 80% of online statistics are made up on the spot.

    Does pirating negatively affect the marketplace? Most would argue yes, but applying numbers to that is ridiculous. I didn't go point-for-point against your quote in hope of saving some of your dignity.

    /in-before-closed-thread


    If I helped you or you have downloaded one of my files,
    then least you could do is click the "Thanks" button.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by gamer765 View Post
    I wouldn't call it money lost since you never had the money in the first place for it to even be considered "lost" or "taken away". You simply never made the money. When you sell an app, you "earn" money, when someone pirates your app, you didn't earn that money,you didn't lose it since no one went into your account and withdrew money. I personally haven't bought any webOS apps since, quite frankly, they don't look that appealing. The only apps I have are freebies, like Gun Bros, Angry Birds, Super Sudoku (Promo Code), Quick Sudoku (Promo Code), Splashtop (Promo code for most referrals), Box.net, Lithium Benchmark, Facebook and Amazon Kindle. I've considered pirating an app to try it, but in the end I decide it just isn't worth it and honestly, I don't think you deserve my money either.
    Your premises here seems to be that his development and support time have no value.
  12. #32  
    Lol Piracy is awesome. I'm a filmmaker and I hope everyone pirates my films. Once I get popular via the completely free distribution system people will pay for my related works in the future. Not everyone can afford to pay for all digital content they'd like to have... That doens't mean they don't deserve to experience good apps, good music or good movies. The money system is a terrible system to be in and we must survive in it until it is abolished. Piracy is a perfectly good way to hold us over in the mean time. I know I don't have any money left over after I get paid, so it's not like I'm not spending my money because I just pirate everything I want. I need to pay rent, power, gas, beer, ect... requirements I should be able to see as many movies as rich people do... Why do they get to be the morally OK ones to do what they want, just cause they were born with the ability to generate more green paper than I can... pfff.
  13. #33  
    Piracy has been happening since the first time two hard drives were linked, and people have stole/shared/given away anything and everything that isn't nailed down. Does it suck? Yes. Is it ever going to end? No. Everyone here has been stolen from most likely at somepoint in there lives, myself included. Save yourself the grief and aggro, its just gonna happen man. Just had my radio stolen out of my car, was I ****ed, you damn right and I woulda broke his ****in legs if I caught him, but I didn't, so live your life OP, keep helping out the community and well help back, just like real life. Just because ima white boy in Gary, IN doesn't mean I'm not gonna help out others, just keep your eyes open for the trash of society.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by kill_Dano View Post
    Lol Piracy is awesome. I'm a filmmaker and I hope everyone pirates my films. Once I get popular via the completely free distribution system people will pay for my related works in the future. Not everyone can afford to pay for all digital content they'd like to have... That doens't mean they don't deserve to experience good apps, good music or good movies. The money system is a terrible system to be in and we must survive in it until it is abolished. Piracy is a perfectly good way to hold us over in the mean time. I know I don't have any money left over after I get paid, so it's not like I'm not spending my money because I just pirate everything I want. I need to pay rent, power, gas, beer, ect... requirements I should be able to see as many movies as rich people do... Why do they get to be the morally OK ones to do what they want, just cause they were born with the ability to generate more green paper than I can... pfff.
    true, but before money they had chickens, and the man with the most chickens was in charge :P
    sketch42 likes this.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    Your premises here seems to be that his development and support time have no value.
    You are comparing something intangible to something tangible. Sure, he may have spent a great deal of time developing said app, but you can't directly compare that to money. We're talking about a single finished digital product which gets copied and installed when a purchase is made, not a service that has to be performed for every customer. It would be a loss if he had to rewrite the entire app for every customer that purchased the app, which is just nonsense, but he's not, he wrote it once and the resulting product gets duplicated upon purchase instead of requiring the app to be written again from scratch.
    So he really didn't lose anything, he can only earn money. If the app gets pirated, he didn't sell, but he didn't lose a penny from his earnings. I've gotten my software pirated before, but I wasn't demanding money from them, I at least earned a few bucks for something that I paid nothing in order to code it and did on my free time. If you are a start-up and you're relying on your software to maintain you, i'm sorry, but you are stupid. Not many people buy into unknown apps from unknown devs. You will be a prime target for pirates and they are your best bet to getting your name around. You will earn money by not earning money,
    Devices:
    HP TouchPad WiFi 32 GB - webOS 3.0.5 + CyanogenMod 10.2 Kernel 3.0
    HP TouchPad 4G 32 GB - webOS 3.0.5 + CyanogenMod 10.1 MBM Beta
    HTC One (T-Mobile)
    Amazon Kindle Fire HD 7" 2012
    Apple iPhone 4 (Verizon)
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    #36  
    just to add some fuel to the fire, there is a (seemingly) well known website that post a lot of webos apps and games. I say seemingly b/c some people posting apps had the same screen-name as this website. I contacted hp and palm subsiduary and sent them a link directly to the site. I got a reply basically saying 'we are aware of the site' and nothing more.

    that was months ago...and it is still up and running to this day. What I gather from this is hp doesn't give a damn about those people pirating.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by ccx View Post
    that was months ago...and it is still up and running to this day. What I gather from this is hp doesn't give a damn about those people pirating.
    Faulty assumption. It might simply not be practical or even possible to go after it (e.g. if hosted in a different country).

    But more importantly - it doesn't matter. Not even a little bit. Even if HP were OK with it (and that is highly unlikely).

    HP is not the same as the individual dev that gets denied his deserved income.
    Pre -> Pre3 & TP32 -> Nexus 5
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by gamer765 View Post
    You are comparing something intangible to something tangible. Sure, he may have spent a great deal of time developing said app, but you can't directly compare that to money. We're talking about a single finished digital product which gets copied and installed when a purchase is made, not a service that has to be performed for every customer. It would be a loss if he had to rewrite the entire app for every customer that purchased the app, which is just nonsense, but he's not, he wrote it once and the resulting product gets duplicated upon purchase instead of requiring the app to be written again from scratch.
    So he really didn't lose anything, he can only earn money. If the app gets pirated, he didn't sell, but he didn't lose a penny from his earnings. I've gotten my software pirated before, but I wasn't demanding money from them, I at least earned a few bucks for something that I paid nothing in order to code it and did on my free time. If you are a start-up and you're relying on your software to maintain you, i'm sorry, but you are stupid. Not many people buy into unknown apps from unknown devs. You will be a prime target for pirates and they are your best bet to getting your name around. You will earn money by not earning money,
    I know what you are trying to say - but you are not quite correct. Sure - devs don't have to work on every single copy - distribution in the digital age is almost (not quite) costless. But that's already part of the price. If a dev had to work on your own digital copy you would have to pay thousands of dollars to make it worthwhile.

    Let's apply your logic to a non-virtual deal. Let's say you want to sell a property - could be a house, a piece of land, artwork - whatever. You research the market value and find out it should fetch around $x (+/- some reasonable range). You advertise the property and wait for bids to come in when it turns out that Mr. P spreads the rumor that your property is faulty/fake. Bids stay low and in the end you can only get a 20th of $x.

    According to your logic you haven't lost anything due to Mr. P's actions.

    Of course there is a "loss" - or rather unrealized potential income.

    When the media industry whines about piracy and makes up stories about how actors will starve and nobody will ever see a movie again they are exaggerating. A large percentage of the "losses" claimed are fictional. But that doesn't change the fact that some parts of the "losses" are real. Sales that otherwise would have happened - were it not for piracy.

    We shouldn't sacrifice other important freedoms (see SOPA/PIPA/DMCA/ACTA, etc...) for that - but some part of the losses are very real.

    Sure - in some cases the some pirated copies turn out to be ads for the developer in the end. But that only works if eventually some decent percentage actually gets paid for in the end.

    If you use an app - just pay the dirt-cheap $5. The amount of making-up-excuses to save a few bucks is ridiculous.
    Pre -> Pre3 & TP32 -> Nexus 5
    fxspec06 likes this.
  19. #39  
    Worries about not getting compensated, yet develops for webos hmmmmmmm
  20. #40  
    I believe the Glimpse dev tweeted that he was no longer developing for webOS but I could be wrong about that.

    Wish HP would expedite opensource.
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