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  1. Aganar's Avatar
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    #41  
    All other things being equal, why wouldn't you want to be able to run all of your favorite apps on the best OS? There are Android apps that have tried to synergize, and tried to multi-task in a way resembling webOS, but none have worked nearly as well. WebOS is a very smooth and aesthetically pleasing OS with one shortcoming: lack of apps. That's what killed it, more than anything. You plug that hole, and continue to advertise its strong suits (i.e. true multi-tasking, fantastic synergy), you suddenly have a marketable OS on your hands.

    Moreover, you seem to think webOS is already dead; so why do you care if something which will "kill" it in the longterm is released? As a caretaker of a dying OS I'd be more concerned with keeping the current users on as long as possible instead of giving them more reasons to switch. You tell them flat-out, "No, we refuse to bring this feature to the OS that could potentially let you run thousands of apps from another OS because we feel it would discourage native-OS app production," you're all but asking your consumers to switch to Android.
    HelmutsKohl likes this.
  2. #42  
    I agree with you 100% Aganar. Lack of apps is the single biggest obstacle to webOS's survival at the moment, and access to Android apps would allow the majority of webOS users to get much more use out of their devices and enable them to stick with webOS through the difficult period until all this uncertainty regarding the future is straightened out.

    It's the apps that get people to install Cyanogenmod, and almost every person that has reported using it say they like webOS far better and are just booting CM7 for the apps. If HP continues updating webOS and fixing bugs (and everthing we've seen over the last couple months indicates that they are going to do just that), with Android apps webOS will be in a position to be seriously considered by third parties considering putting out webOS hardware.

    Lastly, there is a simple fix to the worries about losing sales to other companies ecosystems. The HP App Catalog could be modified and be enabled to also sell and install Android Apps. OpenMobile says that the Android apps do not need to be modified or repackaged in any way to make them compatible, and so Android App developers would simply be able to submit the very same apps they're selling through Google Market and Amazon Appstore to the HP App Catalog as well. We might not be able to convince top tier app developers to port their Apps to webOS, but we can surely convince them to simply submit the exact same Apps to one more App store.
    johncc likes this.
  3. #43  
    Ok, so you can contact Openmobile on the front page of their website for I guess more information and I've done that so far. Not sure if I'll get anything in return but it would be nice.

    Anyway, it's a bit disappointing that the opinions about this are mixed. I guess I honestly thought this would be some of the BEST news that could happen for WebOS & I think it would even be crazier for the webOSnation not to try to get involved w/ this and try to bring something out of it....

    Still hoping for at least a video.. have not been able to find one. Very interested in seeing how the apps run (Supposedly @ 95%)
  4. #44  
    <threads merged>
  5. #45  
    Here's the video. They are showing it running in an emulator though, not on a webOS device, which is why it is running slow:

  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by Aganar View Post
    All other things being equal, why wouldn't you want to be able to run all of your favorite apps on the best OS?
    Well, it sounds all wishful to me. If someone has 'favorite apps' on Android to begin with, then they're likely already an Android user and wont bother going to webOS. It would be looked at as a regression of sorts. For the relatively few current webOS users, this will be beneficial, but only on personal levels. No one would say "Dang! webOS needs to survive because now we can run Android apps on it." And no one would call for new webOS hardware strictly for this purpose.

    The truth is, if it is in fact the best OS (and even I say so at times, but more from a practical standpoint) then it should never be the **** of Android's jokes. Instead, it should be able to stand on its own. The bulk of its apps must be OS-coded instead of having to rely on another system for relevance - and dare I say existence, because no OS can survive solely on just a few great features. If that was the case, then Classic, 55,000 Palm OS apps and synergy should have, in the very least, given webOS a bit of wind beneath its wings (ok, I know that only a fraction of that was compatible).

    Here is whats really plaguing me about ACL...
    • Which OEM would choose to license an Android application layer when Android - the thing that this is meant to run - already comes free?
    • An if no OEM bites and OpenMobile dumps that model for direct sales, how would that translate into more webOS hardware? What about ACL would convince anyone to make webOS devices? The ability to run Android apps, right? Ok, so I ask again: wouldn't they simply choose to build Android devices instead and cut out the complications in the middle? Complications cost $$ to support.

    ...you seem to think webOS is already dead; so why do you care if something which will "kill" it in the longterm is released?
    Emotions have no place here, my friend. It has a way of making things cloudy. Fact: I dont think its dead... I'm currently a user. Fact: it wont be dead as long as it works for me (case in point: I still use Palm OS). Fact: not every -criticism is a 'hate'; Im just trying to call it objectively.

    As a caretaker of a dying OS I'd be more concerned with keeping the current users on as long as possible instead of giving them more reasons to switch.
    Playing caretaker might be the problem and, as I see it, thats not my role. Palm, HP and other corporations - businesses in general - have always left the consumer holding the bag (an empty bag in our case). Money, and only money, is in their best interests. So why should the consumer w/ almost no resources be caretaker and clean the mess? Use the product if it suits you and study the options when it dies.

    A sudden availability of Android apps running transparently on webOS wont exactly encourage the few devs left. No devs = no apps = dead anyway. As for giving users reasons to switch, Palm and HP did that a long time ago. Repeatedly!
  7. #47  
    Android is no longer free.
    Thanks to the MS protection racket (and severely broken patent system) several manufacturers already pay licence fees - just not to Google.
    Oracles Java/Dalvik lawsuit is a liability.
    Google buying Motorola added another complication for OEMs to consider.

    Many agree that webos is a first rate mobile OS. Few would argue that it is not better than Android (certainly pre-ICS - possibly still).
    Webos biggest weaknesses were not the OS by itself - but problematic/limited hardware, lack of apps and weird/misguided/insufficient marketing.

    Of the problems apps are the hardest to fix - unless you use the relatively easily available Android market.
    And plenty of former Android users would use webos if they got the app selection of the Android market. They are already used to every manufacture doing their own skinning on Android.
    The UI of webos with Androids app selection on good hardware is potentially a killer combo - and currently with less restrictions and problems than Android.

    Samsung just announced that they'll merge their own Bada into the Tizen project. How long until they realize that webos has the better UI and larger market share? And costs them the same.

    No manufacturer will suddenly switch from Android to webos. But bringing out a couple of such devices to test the market - Samsung, HTC, Sony, Dell - all would have good reasons to do so.

    -- Sent from my TouchPad using Communities
    Pre -> Pre3 & TP32 -> Nexus 5
  8. #48  
    if you look back at the first set of posts/replys people gave when CM7 for touchpad came out, the reasons people gave for swapping always and i mean always revolved around a certain app or set of apps they wanted/needed that android had.

    Not once was it a case of the android OS was superior, it all boiled down to apps, every single time. Give them the acess to the app they needed and they still get to keep webOS, sounds a bit win win to me.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by p41m3r View Post
    Well, it sounds all wishful to me. If someone has 'favorite apps' on Android to begin with, then they're likely already an Android user and wont bother going to webOS. It would be looked at as a regression of sorts.
    Not necessarily so. A lot of users have adopted Android because they consider it more open and less restricted than the iOS "walled garden" approach, but complain that they do find it a bit clunky and unintuitive. If they could bring their favorite apps with them, such users are good targets for migration to webOS.


    Quote Originally Posted by p41m3r View Post
    For the relatively few current webOS users, this will be beneficial, but only on personal levels.
    Those current webOS users, which include several hundred thousand TouchPad users, are more significant than just being relatively few in number. They are the active, installed user base for the webOS platform, and we cannot afford to lose them as they are key to the viability of the OS. A stable user base signals to manufacturers (HP included) that the platform is basically sound, and the lackluster sales can be attributed to other, possibly correctable factors. An eroding user base signals to manufacturers that even those that picked up the device for a song in what was undoubtedly the deal of the decade are dissatisfied with it, and makes them more hesitant to risk any investment on it. As such, giving webOS users access to more Apps accomplishes much more than just giving them personal satisfaction.


    Quote Originally Posted by p41m3r View Post
    No one would say "Dang! webOS needs to survive because now we can run Android apps on it." And no one would call for new webOS hardware strictly for this purpose.
    But people are already saying that webOS needs to survive because they like the elegance of it, and the way the multitasking is implemented - that is the very valid reason why webOS should continue to exist. Adding Android apps is merely a means by which that continued existence can be achieved.


    Quote Originally Posted by p41m3r View Post
    The truth is, if it is in fact the best OS (and even I say so at times, but more from a practical standpoint) then it should never be the **** of Android's jokes. Instead, it should be able to stand on its own.
    I understand this sentiment, and I get the whole "webOS pride" vibe. But the fact of the matter is that if we make webOS stand on it's own, the chances for survival are exceedingly slim. HP made so many mistakes that it seems hard to count them, and we are living with the consequences of those bad decisions. An opportunity has now opened up for webOS to have a fighting chance, and yes it does require leaning on a competitor. My view is that we need to swallow our pride and do the practical thing. Don't forget that Apple had to swallow it's pride and accept investment from Microsoft to survive at one point, and now it's running Microsoft out of town.


    Quote Originally Posted by p41m3r View Post
    The bulk of its apps must be OS-coded instead of having to rely on another system for relevance - and dare I say existence, because no OS can survive solely on just a few great features. If that was the case, then Classic, 55,000 Palm OS apps and synergy should have, in the very least, given webOS a bit of wind beneath its wings (ok, I know that only a fraction of that was compatible).
    Actually, it does not matter where the apps came from. It does not matter which platform they were coded for originally - many popular apps on Android were ported from iOS, many popular apps on iOS were ported from Android. In fact, app development is moving more and more towards platform agnostic techniques which allow the same app to be rapidly deployed on any platform. Also, do those classic apps that you're talking about (the fraction that were compatible anyway) actually hold their own when compared with currently designed apps which take advantage of the more advanced features in today's current operating systems? I don't think so.


    Quote Originally Posted by p41m3r View Post
    Here is whats really plaguing me about ACL...
    Which OEM would choose to license an Android application layer when Android - the thing that this is meant to run - already comes free?
    But it doesn't come free. Microsoft forces Android device makers to pay licensing fees for parts of the Android OS that it says infringe on its patents.


    Quote Originally Posted by p41m3r View Post
    An if no OEM bites and OpenMobile dumps that model for direct sales, how would that translate into more webOS hardware? What about ACL would convince anyone to make webOS devices? The ability to run Android apps, right? Ok, so I ask again: wouldn't they simply choose to build Android devices instead and cut out the complications in the middle? Complications cost $$ to support.
    Several reasons:
    1) Because for many people the Android user interface is clunky and not as intuitive as webOS. Ice Cream Sandwich might change that, but again t may not. We will see.

    2) Manufacturers need to differentiate their devices. If they don't, then it becomes a race to the bottom, and the winner will be whoever can deliver the best specs at the lowest price by drastically slashing their profit margins. That is why you have manufactures dropping their own customized layers on top of Android - they are trying to make their product more appealing by look and feel rather than by price.

    3) Because manufactures are always looking for an x-factor that might shake the market up. It is generally accepted that iOS and Android will be number 1 and 2, but who will be number 3? Windows? RIM? Could it be webOS? There is considerable money that can sometimes be made by taking a risk with a scrappy outsider. Remember when Unix ruled the server market and Microsoft put major resources into trying to unseat it? Who would have thought that in the end, little open source Linux would have been the one to come out on top, and now be the leading server operating system? Manufacturers are very aware that these things don't always go as expected, and the smart ones are always keeping an eye out for potential game changers.


    Quote Originally Posted by p41m3r View Post
    Fact: I dont think its dead... I'm currently a user. Fact: it wont be dead as long as it works for me (case in point: I still use Palm OS). Fact: not every -criticism is a 'hate'; Im just trying to call it objectively.
    Fact: Most users are not zealots. They are only going to stick with a platform so long as it allows them to accomplish what they want. There are a good number of webOS users who remain so simply because they don't have the cash at the moment to drop on an iOS or Android device that can give them the apps they want. If webOS doesn't deliver the apps, they will leave - perhaps reluctantly - but they will still leave.


    Quote Originally Posted by p41m3r View Post
    Playing caretaker might be the problem and, as I see it, thats not my role. Palm, HP and other corporations - businesses in general - have always left the consumer holding the bag (an empty bag in our case). Money, and only money, is in their best interests. So why should the consumer w/ almost no resources be caretaker and clean the mess? Use the product if it suits you and study the options when it dies.
    Some of us are born caretakers and are always ready to take on a worthy cause, it's just in our nature. If you don't feel that way it just means you have a different type of personality, and there's nothing wrong with that.


    Quote Originally Posted by p41m3r View Post
    A sudden availability of Android apps running transparently on webOS wont exactly encourage the few devs left. No devs = no apps = dead anyway.
    There are different types of devs. Some like to create apps that are consumer facing, while others are more interested in playing with the nitty gritty of how things work that people for the most part will never see. There are guys and gals out there who get a big kick out of rewriting a block of code to make it even 1% more efficient than it originally was. Those guys definitely won't be leaving because of Android apps.

    As far as the App developers are concerned, they fall into 2 categories:
    The Hobbyist - These develop apps for webOS because they have a webOS device and like to get it to do cool stuff, or because they like playing with the development environment. Most of these guys will not be affected by a proliferation of Android apps, because they are motivated by internal factors.

    The Pro or Semi-Pro - These develop apps either to put food on the table or to bring in extra cash. Many of them have already been forced to either leave webOS or also develop for other platforms as a result of the negative outlook following the debacle in August. The ones that are still hanging on will be forced to leave it the current webOS user base starts to decline anyway. Preserving the user base is the only we to hold on to these guys, even if the added competitiveness due to the addition of Android apps makes it hard for them to sell their products. With Android apps they will have a fighting chance, without Android apps they'll have no chance. Even if their sales of webOS apps decrease, they will have the option of also deploying their apps for iOS and Android to try and make up for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by p41m3r View Post
    As for giving users reasons to switch, Palm and HP did that a long time ago. Repeatedly!
    And in spite of that, many of us are still here. To me, that says that webOS has something very good going for it. If it didn't, more of us would be looking forward to leaving it behind, but that doesn't seem to be happening. Most of the people that leave seem to be doing it reluctantly.

    Wow, this was an insanely long post, but I felt it was important to provide valid answers to these pressing questions. If you made it through to this point, you probably really do care about seeing webOS survive!
  10. #50  
    I completely agree with marcedhk, and I wish
    I could do more to help.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by marcedhk
    If you made it through to this point, you probably really do care about seeing webOS survive!
    Lol... Palm's story is an interesting one. As a long-time user, Im eager to see how it plays out - if there are other chapters to be written.

    Those were good points that you and the others have stated - many quite valid.

    I guess its up to the few things that can see this through or not: the distribution model, marketing, execution, support, real-world performance, etc. Not sure if it'll all be enough to precipitate reasons 2 and 3 above, but as I see it, competitive webOS devices are the crucial part of what seems to be this chicken-and-egg situation. Hopefully Microshaft's pressure will cause a manufacturer or two to reconsider, in light of the ACL news and demo.

    As you've said, we'll see.
    Last edited by p41m3r; 01/16/2012 at 03:44 AM.
  12. #52  
    Well, that video bothers me a bit.. I know I don't have any expreience using an emulator.. well ever.. But do they really slow things down that much?

    Also, I don't understand why Openmobile isn't going another route w/ this. Meego is basically gone, Windows isn't going to need it, and WebOS isn't going to have any new devices from HP .. so the best way for them to make money (Right now) has to be via the Touchpad and releasing it in the App store right?

    Or is releasing it in the app store simply not possible?
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by inertia1 View Post
    I'm guessing that this company developed this technology with the intent of licensing or selling it to companies like HP to improve the viability of non-Android-running hardware in the marketplace. They were probably looking for multiples of millions. This would have definitely been possible if HP were to continue to invest heavily in webOS hardware.

    Now that HP has cancelled webOS hardware, their whole business plan, as far as webOS goes, is probably shot. Selling to the end user is a whole different ballgame. It's analogous to what the Motion company was trying to do with Classic. Even if they could sell 3000 licenses to end users for a whopping $50 (fewer copies that Astraware has sold of their $3 Mahjong game), and keep 100% of the revenue from the App Catalog, that's only about $150K which is not enough to keep any software company going.

    If compatibility layers were that popular with end users then Classic would have been a raging success given that there probably were a ton more people looking to run Palm OS apps on their next gen Palm devices 2-3 years ago than there will be people looking to run Android apps on webOS devices today.
    Well, what you say is true with a couple exceptions.
    It's very true that the revenue potential on webOS is unclear given it's not known if any OEM is going to ship new devices.

    As far as comparing ACL to Classic goes, your statement depends on what platform the emulator/compatibility layer is for. Android apps are a thriving, growing ecosystem and so there will be demand for the foreseeable future on other (non-Android platforms) - Google is actively investing in the platform and driving it forward. Android applications currently run on Android phones, tablets, Blackberry has compatibility, Bluestacks is investigating for Windows/Mac - it might be possible to run Android apps across all client tiers of computing devices at some point (well, maybe with the exception of iOS which does not allow compatibility layers).

    The PalmOS environment emulated by Classic was none of these - it did not have an active parent pushing the PalmOS ecosystem and it was clearly legacy with revenue potential for only a few years while users migrated to the new webOS platform and replaced their legacy apps. If you look at Bluestacks for Windows8 - I could easily see that being very successful and helping bridge what will likely be an apps gap between Windows8 and Android app counts. I would think it would be in Google's favor to have Android emulators for other platforms since it makes it likely that the evolving Android/iOS mobile application duopoly will be harder to break for a 3rd OS. Microsoft's weakness in phones means it is not an option for mobile app developers to ignore Android and Android 4 (ICS) means it is easier than ever to port phone apps to tablets - so Android will only get stronger on tablets. Of course, Microsoft hopes it works the other way around too - they hope that their strength in apps on PCs ultimately translates into strength on tablets and phones. We'll see.

    WebOS badly needs the ability to run Android apps if it is going to remain relevant, given that HP has said they are not going to ship any devices in 2012 (or maybe ever). I'm excited about the possibility of ACL and hope it comes to fruition. The fact that it is out there makes it more likely that webOS + ACL (or Android compatibility by some other vendor, like Myriad) becomes reality and another OEM can ship new webOS devices once webOS code is open-sourced. Without Android app compatibility I don't see how any OEM can ship a webOS device that will sell well - even Microsoft is struggling to gain app developers and apps given all their resources, full commitment to the platform, and a top tier OEM (Nokia) fully committed to the platform.
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by Zukny View Post
    Well, that video bothers me a bit.. I know I don't have any expreience using an emulator.. well ever.. But do they really slow things down that much?
    Its not an emulator in the same sense. Its a layer of code that will run on real hardware at some point, but as shown, it was running in an emulator on a tablet - think of an emulator inside another emulator. That will be slow.

    Their expected real-world performance on hardware for which drivers will provide optimization is about 95% of a real Android device. If thats correct then the difference wont be perceptible. I have no use for it as I Avoid Android, but obviously it will make many happy.
  15. T-Pad's Avatar
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    #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by Zukny View Post
    Meego is basically gone
    I'm not quite sure - Samsung is in negotiation with Intel about merging Bada with Tizen (Meego's successor):

    Samsung Merging Its Bada OS With Intel-Backed Tizen Project - Forbes

    But anyway Bada is listed as one of Openmobile's targets, too. Although I think Samsung should have the know how for creating its own Android ACL for Bada.
    Preł (iPhone 4), TouchPad 32 GB (PlayBook 16 GB)
  16. #56  
    Received an Email from Open Mobile:

    Thank you so much for your email request!

    Unfortunately at the moment, we only sell directly to OEMs (ie, Nokia, HP, etc.). Becoming an OpenMobile customer would enable them to sell their new devices (Smartphones, Tablets, eReaders, Netbooks, Connected TVs, IVIs, etc.) with ACL pre-installed, as well as consider offering a downloadable version for their devices that are already in the market. Please feel free to reach out to your device manufacturer (HP) to express your desire to have OpenMobile's ACL.

    If you would like to see a demo of OpenMobile’s ACL running on MeeGo, please take a peek:

    • OpenMobile’s Application Compatibility Layer (ACL) running on a Lenovo S10 netbook


    • OpenMobile Application Compatibility Layer (ACL) running on an X86 tablet, running MeeGo 1.2:
    OpenMobile World Wide - ACL demo - www.OpenMobileWW.com - YouTube

    If you have any further questions, please don’t hesitate to call or email, as I would be happy to help you in any way that I can.

    Thank you so much!

    Warm regards,

    Leila

    Leila Dillon
    VP Global Marketing Communications / Investor Relations


    **The one thing to take out from the email is the idea to Email HP and request that they bring Open Mobile into their platform.** Now maybe some of you might not be up for this,
    But I for one plan on Emailing HP and requesting just this sometime today Maybe I can't create apps myself, but to me this is the best way for the community to help out and all of us email HP for the product.
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by Zukny View Post
    Received an Email from Open Mobile:

    Unfortunately at the moment, we only sell directly to OEMs (ie, Nokia, HP, etc.).
    lol. I think he means they would like to sell directly to OEMs.

    looking at the demos, they seem to be just about there. I wonder if they can get any more fluid (better drivers?) or if its an Android limitation.

    **The one thing to take out from the email is the idea to Email HP and request that they bring Open Mobile into their platform.**
    More questions: in light of ridding themselves of a burden through future open sourcing, what is the likelihood that they would license this and put more $$ into getting it in future TP and Pre ROMs? Would they really buy licensing to cover 1 million+ users? Then again, they never ceased to surprise us - albeit in undesirably shocking ways.

    Maybe you can convince Meg that she owes us a solid.
    Last edited by p41m3r; 01/17/2012 at 09:26 PM.
  18. #58  
    So we email Bill Veghte - Chief Strategy dude and get him on the ball. Can't they buy it though and then give it to us Touchpad users at an extra cost type of deal?

    Not saying they would do it.. Just saying this is the only hope WebOS gets plenty of Apps availalbe.. Otherwise we stare at a wall for 2 years while we wait for the open sourcing to thrive or fail...
  19. vdc
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    #59  
    Do you mean you have already emailed Bill Veghte?

    Can we reach out to Derek and ask him to write an article about this?
  20. #60  
    I haven't no, I'm simply proposing we all do.

    The thing is, I constantly hear people (specifically on the website comments) that they are tired of reading everyone here Defend webOS and not actually do anything about it..

    Well, Isn't this the best way to do something about it? Get a truly great function (meaning 250,000) apps on the touchpad??? A mass email to Bill Veghte or a petition? something.. Would be a great way to grab the attention of those at HP involved w/ WebOS.

    It would also show them we still care and we are willing to do whatever it takes to succeed.
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