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  1. #21  
    sigh... HP didnt remove any features. web pages still load in the background. However, HP has gotten much smarter with regards to memory management. Here are two videos I've made that show the touch pad doing just this:




    If ever you find that the touchpad doesn't load your webpage in the background, its likely because you're running too many tasks for it to be able to load your webpages without the device taking a performance hit.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    sigh... web pages still load in the background. However, HP has gotten much smarter with regards to memory management. Here are two videos I've made that show the touch pad doing just this:




    If ever you find that the touchpad doesn't load your webpage in the background, its likely because you're running too many tasks for it to be able to load your webpages without the device taking a performance hit.

    You're wrong, Mr. Wrongy-Mcwrongington
    johnj2803 and Sanjay like this.
  3. #23  
    I still fail to understand what resources are being saved by not rendering the pages in the background. More importantly, why is it important to save resources that are not being used for anything else anyhow. Also, why is it so difficult for some to understand the utility of not having to wait for the page to render when one wishes to read it.

    When you open three browser pages before hand and then start loading a site, they do all seemingly load in the background. But then, I feel it is because those cards are already in focus and thus s tart loading. But try opening links in a different card from one browser card and you will see they don't load or atleast they won't render in the background. Do make sure that you click on a link to open in a new card and immediately switch back to the original card without letting the new card come into focus. The new card will not load/render until you actually bring that card into focus. Or if anything, the touchpad browser is just painfully slow in downloading and rendering pages. By the way I have tested solely with pages that normally open absolutely instantly on my PC and relatively qickly on the touchpad too when opened just by themselves.

    Before you start questining the need for opening links in different cards, let me just state that is how I normally browse. Specially in forums, I will at first just click the links on the all the threads I want to read and open them in a different tab/card and then read them one by one. On my PC all the tabs are already loaded and rendered when I switch to them and which is how I wish for it to be in webOS too. Also, I also do not like the fact that when you open a link in a different card, the focus switches to the new card. I prefer to open the new card/tab while still staying on the existing tab/card. I sincerely hope that no one is now going to suggest that I change the way how I prefer to browse.

    PS: Oops... Looks like 'kill_Dano' posted a video to prove exactly the pooint I have been trying to make. Thanks @ 'kill_Dano'.
    Pre3 (AT&T meta-doctored to ROW) webOS 2.2.4 build 3175
    TouchPad WiFi (32GB) - webOS 3.0.5 build 86
    App Catalog (US) - Vodafone (India)

    Treo 180 > 270 > 600 > 650 > 680 > Pre+ > Pre2 > Pre+ > Pre3 & tPad
  4. #24  
    What is even worse than HP's bungling of multi-tasking in webOS 3.x.x, is the fact that people here, instead of collectively pursuing HP to fix the issues are actually defending the retrograde steps that continue to chip away and erode the original vision of webOS.

    The fact is, that unless I am forced to, I do not prefer to browse on the Touchpad becasue of the tedious implementation of multi-tasking in the browser. Instead of playing to the strengths of webOS, HP sems hell bent upon making it just another "me too" product. I am sorry to say, if webOS is going to be just like iOS, then I think it is time, for me atleast, to switch to iOS. For, not only does Apple produce far superior hardware, but they seem to actually be incorporating some of the abondoned features of webOS that people such as myself found so endearing.
    Pre3 (AT&T meta-doctored to ROW) webOS 2.2.4 build 3175
    TouchPad WiFi (32GB) - webOS 3.0.5 build 86
    App Catalog (US) - Vodafone (India)

    Treo 180 > 270 > 600 > 650 > 680 > Pre+ > Pre2 > Pre+ > Pre3 & tPad
  5. #25  
    page loading != page rendering
  6. #26  
    And unfortunately the TP does neither unless I wait until the newly spawned window gets focus then wait a couple more seconds until I'm confident the page loading is in process. I could accept delayed rendering if the loading truly initiated and proceeded as some here think it does. I realize everyone's browser usage model is different but Sanjay's forum reading example is exactly what people do to maximize browser viewing. I will add this becomes more important for me as I am often in poor signal coverage area and the wait just to ensure the loading is starting can be many seconds. The second use case is when I need to leave a wifi area (boarding plane) and I want to load/cache as many pages as possible in the shortest period of time. The third case is when I'm on a slow connection and I want to queue a few up.

    The resource memory/cpu argument does not hold. The ability to prioritize resources to the focused task is what a good OS inheritly does. When I'm reading an already rendered page I don't think it is asking too much to have the TP use its idle network resources to load content and assuming there are idle cpu/memory resouces the pages should be pre-rendered. Done right this should have no visible impact on the foreground task. These basic concepts goes back decades.

    It is naive to believe HP purposefully took away this capability to 'optimize' our experience. The more likely scenario is that in adding some functionality (e.g. Flash) they realized the OS couldn't properly manage the cpu/memory resources as before and since they didn't have time to rearchitect(fix) it, the more expediate path was to take more draconian decisions. I've had to make such decisions myself for surprisely similar circumstances. Because of my background I realize it is often necessary to move back to progress forward but it doesn't make it less aggravating when I know HP knows better. I love WebOS and am not even close to jumping ship but we need to push HP as it is the finesse of operations like this (and gesture area swipes) which set it apart and will ultimately determine its long term success.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjay View Post
    I still fail to understand what resources are being saved by not rendering the pages in the background. More importantly, why is it important to save resources that are not being used for anything else anyhow. Also, why is it so difficult for some to understand the utility of not having to wait for the page to render when one wishes to read it.

    When you open three browser pages before hand and then start loading a site, they do all seemingly load in the background. But then, I feel it is because those cards are already in focus and thus s tart loading. But try opening links in a different card from one browser card and you will see they don't load or atleast they won't render in the background. Do make sure that you click on a link to open in a new card and immediately switch back to the original card without letting the new card come into focus. The new card will not load/render until you actually bring that card into focus. Or if anything, the touchpad browser is just painfully slow in downloading and rendering pages. By the way I have tested solely with pages that normally open absolutely instantly on my PC and relatively qickly on the touchpad too when opened just by themselves.

    Before you start questining the need for opening links in different cards, let me just state that is how I normally browse. Specially in forums, I will at first just click the links on the all the threads I want to read and open them in a different tab/card and then read them one by one. On my PC all the tabs are already loaded and rendered when I switch to them and which is how I wish for it to be in webOS too. Also, I also do not like the fact that when you open a link in a different card, the focus switches to the new card. I prefer to open the new card/tab while still staying on the existing tab/card. I sincerely hope that no one is now going to suggest that I change the way how I prefer to browse.

    PS: Oops... Looks like 'kill_Dano' posted a video to prove exactly the pooint I have been trying to make. Thanks @ 'kill_Dano'.
    The resource being saved is RAM. Without getting too technical RAM is used to "temporary storage and working space for the operating system and its applications". in an ideal environment, we'd have unlimited RAM and our devices would always perform optimally. Unfortunately this isn't the case. Every application you run, is in competition for this temporary storage space. different operations require different amounts of space. Poorly written applications often take up more of this space than needed. A good application would take up no more than needed, then free up the space when its done.

    the idea that these resources "are not being used by anything else" is false. Its actually being used by EVERYTHING else. There are processes that the user is totally unaware of that are constantly using up RAM. That is why it's important for HP to make sure it is used efficiently, especially by its stock applications.

    I see that you've seemed to grasp the difference between rendering and loading so we wont get into that. I do see utility in wanting your webpages to load AND render in the background, but from HP's perspective, I don't see the practicality. The average user would rather wait one second for a webpage to render, than have the device slow down to a crawl while trying to render a webpage that isn't even in view. HP's solution is actually saving time because its making sure there's ample space in RAM before trying to cram something into it.

    here's a basic scenario. Keep in mind it doesn't precisely represent (not even close) what goes on in a computer but it might help you understand. lets say you want to launch 3 web pages: Page A,B,C. each card has 2 tasks, load and render. that's six tasks total. Lets say there's only room in RAM for 5 tasks to fit comfortably.

    Option1: All three pages load in the background, taking up 3 spaces in Ram. Page A renders, then cleans up its mess and leaves. when the user swithes cards, Page B does the same. he switch again and Page C goes. At any given time, there was only 4 tasks in RAM at time. It even leaves room for another task.

    Option2: All three pages load and render. uh-oh thats six spaces. you've used up all the RAM and haven't saved any room for other tasks. ENTER "too many card error"

    does that make sense?

    Finally, i think its time we take a moment to understand the difference between HP removing a feature, and a feature simply not working to your expectations. I'm sure we'd all prefer that the touchpad be able to render webpages like a PC. But it isn't a PC, and doesn't have the specs of a PC. That kind of performance would likely require a heavier and bulkier device (which would give us something else to complain about!). That said, HP came up with a solution to mulitasking that works well on this form factor. And perhaps future updates will make WebOS and the browser more efficient when it comes to RAM and you'll get the behavior you desire.
    However, at the end of the day, its worth noting that no other mobile device is capable of doing what webOS is capable of TODAY.

    so no, no one is defending HP taking steps backwards. In the case of the browser, there is no backwards step to defend. You've seen my videos, IN THIS THREAD, where I've proven that the browser IS capable of loading and even rendering webpages in the background.

    I've also seen use cases where certain browsing styles actually cause the browser to behave in a less desirable manor. That is certainly something HP needs to address. but there is a concrete difference between removing a feature and less than perfect execution... especially when the competition is as of yet incapable of executing this at all.
    Last edited by Mhunterjr; 08/06/2011 at 11:57 PM.
  8. #28  
    They may never "get it" but I always use "books on a desk" for my analogy of working ram v storage ram. If you have a 3'x2' desk, you can fit a finite number of open books on the desk. (The desk is the RAM) However, if you open one book and stack the others closed, they are still on the desk for easy access but not taking up valuable space on the desk since you can only "read" one open book at a time.

    Now you can stack open books on the desk, but since you can't read the open books at the bottom of the stack, why waste the desk space on something you can't see or interact with? All HP did was close a couple books but leave a "bookmark" to the page you want to read for when you switch to it.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by kill_Dano View Post

    You're wrong, Mr. Wrongy-Mcwrongington

    lol well i'll be... i guess my videos must be from fairy land!

    my argument that hp did not remove a feature is 100% confirmed by my videos.my argument cannot coexist with the counter argument. Your video does not prove me wrong at all, it just shows that their are use cases touchpad browser falters.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by cobrakon View Post
    They may never "get it" but I always use "books on a desk" for my analogy of working ram v storage ram. If you have a 3'x2' desk, you can fit a finite number of open books on the desk. (The desk is the RAM) However, if you open one book and stack the others closed, they are still on the desk for easy access but not taking up valuable space on the desk since you can only "read" one open book at a time.

    Now you can stack open books on the desk, but since you can't read the open books at the bottom of the stack, why waste the desk space on something you can't see or interact with? All HP did was close a couple books but leave a "bookmark" to the page you want to read for when you switch to it.
    nice analogy! i tried to come up with one but couldn't. hopefully they'll get it. seems like we're all starting to get it together...
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    lol well i'll be... i guess my videos must be from fairy land!

    my argument that hp did not remove a feature is 100% confirmed by my videos.my argument cannot coexist with the counter argument. Your video does not prove me wrong at all, it just shows that their are use cases touchpad browser falters.
    "You're videos" You mean your very smug videos in which you say ppl who say there is problem with background page loading are "misinformed" and that it's "absolutely false". Well it seems we are not misinformed. There is an issue here and you are the misinformed one.

    Your videos show background page loading in a way that OP was not talking about. Notice this part of the OP "I am so used to clicking links and opening them on a different card"

    You didn't open new cards in your videos.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by kill_Dano View Post
    "You're videos" You mean your very smug videos in which you say ppl who say there is problem with background page loading are "misinformed" and that it's "absolutely false". Well it seems we are not misinformed. There is an issue here and you are the misinformed one.

    Your videos show background page loading in a way that OP was not talking about. Notice this part of the OP "I am so used to clicking links and opening them on a different card"

    You didn't open new cards in your videos.
    sigh... if someone says that something CAN'T be done, when it actually CAN be done, then that person is misinformed. PERIOD.


    furthermore, my videos were in response to sanjay's ridiculous claims that HP intentionally removed the touchpads ability to load web pages in the background as an attempt to mimic the competition. My comment was not, and was never intended to counter the OP's claims regard a specific use case.

    the feature is still there, but there ARE instances where it doesn't work well. PERIOD.

    The notion that this is some corporate sanctioned attempt to gimp webOS or copy apple is baseless.

    as far as that specific use case, the fact that it works flawlessly in 'advanced browser' suggests that its a bug in stock browser and not limitation of webOS itself, nor an intentional attempt by hp to moves away from true multitasking.
    Last edited by Mhunterjr; 08/07/2011 at 01:30 PM.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by cobrakon View Post
    They may never "get it" but I always use "books on a desk" for my analogy of working ram v storage ram. If you have a 3'x2' desk, you can fit a finite number of open books on the desk. (The desk is the RAM) However, if you open one book and stack the others closed, they are still on the desk for easy access but not taking up valuable space on the desk since you can only "read" one open book at a time.

    Now you can stack open books on the desk, but since you can't read the open books at the bottom of the stack, why waste the desk space on something you can't see or interact with? All HP did was close a couple books but leave a "bookmark" to the page you want to read for when you switch to it.
    Don't know about others, but I know what RAM is and what it's functions are, and I certainly didn't need your analogy for me to understand the point that some of you have been trying to make. The problem is, that it is some of you who continue to fail to understand, that some of us do not want a bookmark and would much rather have the open book, ready to be read when we are ready to read. If this requires the use of some resources, then so be it. That is what the resources are there for. The way it works right now, may technically be considered as multi-tasking, but the fact is that in practically it is not. I wonder what your stance would be, if tommorrow Microsoft decided to implement this in Windows to save you some precious "resources".
    Pre3 (AT&T meta-doctored to ROW) webOS 2.2.4 build 3175
    TouchPad WiFi (32GB) - webOS 3.0.5 build 86
    App Catalog (US) - Vodafone (India)

    Treo 180 > 270 > 600 > 650 > 680 > Pre+ > Pre2 > Pre+ > Pre3 & tPad
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjay View Post
    Don't know about others, but I know what RAM is and what it's functions are, and I certainly didn't need your analogy for me to understand the point that some of you have been trying to make. The problem is, that it is some of you who continue to fail to understand, that some of us do not want a bookmark and would much rather have the open book, ready to be read when we are ready to read. If this requires the use of some resources, then so be it. That is what the resources are there for. The way it works right now, may technically be considered as multi-tasking, but the fact is that in practically it is not. I wonder what your stance would be, if tommorrow Microsoft decided to implement this in Windows to save you some precious "resources".
    1st the minimum requirements for a windows device wouldn't require the kind of resource management found in a tablet device. So obviously I'd be pretty annoyed if my pc with 4gb of RAM couldn't load webpages in the background. But I understand that my tablet isn't nearly as powerful as my PC, so I naturally don't expect it to operate like one. If I did, I would have gotten on of the many windows tablets on the market.

    2nd why do you ignore the possibility that there just might not be enough desk space to have as many open books as you want? You claim to have an understanding of RAM, but don't seem to understand that there isn't an infinite amount of it and that it needs to be used efficiently.

    3rd, the specific use case mention in this thread (opening new pages) works perfectly in advanced browser, proving that the OPs issue is more likely a bug in the stock browser than some hp conspiracy. It certainly proves that this IS NOT a limitation of the OS itself, and quite frankly squashes baseless your claims that HP is trying to hinder WebOS in order to 'work like everything else'
    Last edited by Mhunterjr; 08/07/2011 at 03:38 PM.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    if someone says that something CAN'T be done, when it actually CAN be done, then that person is misinformed. PERIOD.
    The fact is, links opened in new cards do NOT load in the background. PERIOD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    the feature is still there, but there ARE instances where it doesn't work well. PERIOD.
    Hmm.. You admit that the problem I have stated, does exist. Yet, I am the "misinformed" one and my claims are "[b]absolutely[/b} false".

    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    furthermore, my videos were in response to sanjay's ridiculous claims that HP intentionally removed the touchpads ability to load web pages in the background as an attempt to mimic the competition. My comment was not, and was never intended to counter the OP's claims regard a specific use case.
    ..

    The notion that this is some corporate sanctioned attempt to gimp webOS or copy apple is baseless.
    My "ridiculous claims" about HP aping "the competition" was made in jest and it was never mean't to be taken literally. I apologize that my English skills failed to convey the sarcasm. I am quite sure there is no "corporate sanctioned" attempt to duplicate iOS, but the fact remains that HP has removed things that made webOS unique and has made changes, that seem to make webOS just more like the competition, rather than make it any better. If a feature worked in webOS 2.1.0 and does not in webOS 3.0.2, then by most definitions, it is a step backwards.

    Considering, that in webOS 3.0.0 new cards stopped loading and now in webOS 3.0.2, videos no longer play in card mode, does seem to suggest that HP may intentionally be stopping things from functioning in the background. Although, I do hope it is a bug, rather than HPs idea of a new feature. For then atleast there is hope that it will be fixed at some point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    as far as that specific use case, the fact that it works flawlessly in 'advanced browser' suggests that its a bug in stock browser and not limitation of webOS itself, nor an intentional attempt by hp to moves away from true multitasking.
    It very well may be, that it is a bug. But then that would defeat the whole argument of this being intentional to save "resources".
    Pre3 (AT&T meta-doctored to ROW) webOS 2.2.4 build 3175
    TouchPad WiFi (32GB) - webOS 3.0.5 build 86
    App Catalog (US) - Vodafone (India)

    Treo 180 > 270 > 600 > 650 > 680 > Pre+ > Pre2 > Pre+ > Pre3 & tPad
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjay View Post
    The fact is, links opened in new cards do NOT load in the background. PERIOD.


    Hmm.. You admit that the problem I have stated, does exist. Yet, I am the "misinformed" one and my claims are "[b]absolutely[/b} false".
    yes the problem (as i've stated several times) does exist...but ONLY in the stock browser. The fact that this problem doesn't surface in 3rd party apps PROVES that this isn't a limitation of the operating system, but of the stock browser alone.

    My "ridiculous claims" about HP aping "the competition" was made in jest and it was never mean't to be taken literally. I apologize that my English skills failed to convey the sarcasm. I am quite sure there is no "corporate sanctioned" attempt to duplicate iOS, but the fact remains that HP has removed things that made webOS unique and has made changes, that seem to make webOS just more like the competition, rather than make it any better. If a feature worked in webOS 2.1.0 and does not in webOS 3.0.2, then by most definitions, it is a step backwards.

    Considering, that in webOS 3.0.0 new cards stopped loading and now in webOS 3.0.2, videos no longer play in card mode, does seem to suggest that HP may intentionally be stopping things from functioning in the background. Although, I do hope it is a bug, rather than HPs idea of a new feature. For then atleast there is hope that it will be fixed at some point.
    sorry i missed your sarcasm. and i acknowledge that somethings like videos playing in card mode were held dearly by some users. But if HP made such concessions to niche "features" in the name of performance, it makes a lot of sense, especially after getting panned in reviews over performance. That said, i'm sure its safe to say, most potential buyers aren't interested in watching videos in card mode, when they can utilize the entire 9.7 inch screen.

    It very well may be, that it is a bug. But then that would defeat the whole argument of this being intentional to save "resources".
    The bug comment is in regards to loading web pages in new cards by clicking on a link. I'm pretty sure this is a bug because it works in other apps. And if it was a conscious decision by HP to alter the stock browser in this way, the fact is capability still exists within WebOS.

    My comment about resources was in regards to HPs decision to load webpages in the background, but not to render them until the user activates them. If performance is an issue (which it is) it makes sense to hold of on rendering things that aren't in view. And even this issue appears to be an app level issue and not an OS level one.

    I hope this clears everything up.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    But if HP made such concessions to niche "features" in the name of performance, it makes a lot of sense, especially after getting panned in reviews over performance.
    I know that quite a few will differ from this, but the fact is, for me and for several others that I know, there has been hardly any gain in performance with 3.0.2, if any at all. Therefore, these "concessions" seem like an even poorer trade off.

    PS: The coincidental, simultaneous launch of uNixPsyCho's F15C 1.728 overclocking kernel has helped mask the lacklustre performance improvements of the 3.0.2 update.
    Pre3 (AT&T meta-doctored to ROW) webOS 2.2.4 build 3175
    TouchPad WiFi (32GB) - webOS 3.0.5 build 86
    App Catalog (US) - Vodafone (India)

    Treo 180 > 270 > 600 > 650 > 680 > Pre+ > Pre2 > Pre+ > Pre3 & tPad
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjay View Post
    I know that quite a few will differ from this, but the fact is, for me and for several others that I know, there has been hardly any gain in performance with 3.0.2, if any at all. Therefore, these "concessions" seem like an even poorer trade off.

    PS: The coincidental, simultaneous launch of uNixPsyCho's F15C 1.728 overclocking kernel has helped mask the lacklustre performance improvements of the 3.0.2 update.
    if you haven't noticed much an improvement with 3.0.2, I'd assume there is something fishy with you're hardware, or you may need to doctor your device to 3.0.2 when the webOS doctor becomes available.

    also, its no surprise the uNixPsycho's kernel improves the performance. the faster clock likely speeds up various processes leaving more RAM available, more of the time.

    In the mean time, until HP fixes the stock browser (if they fix it), I suggest getting advanced browser from the app catalog. I've been using for the last couple days and haven't seen any of the issues mentioned in this thread, not to mention it has a lot of other nice features.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    if you haven't noticed much an improvement with 3.0.2, I'd assume there is something fishy with you're hardware, or you may need to doctor your device to 3.0.2 when the webOS doctor becomes available.
    I already doctored with 3.0.2, hoping to see some noticeable gain in performance, but it did not really help. By the way, the 3.0.2 doctor became available within a day of the update, if I remember correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    In the mean time, until HP fixes the stock browser (if they fix it), I suggest getting advanced browser from the app catalog. I've been using for the last couple days and haven't seen any of the issues mentioned in this thread, not to mention it has a lot of other nice features.
    Ditto on this too. Already have the advanced browser. But, although I like the tabbed browsing, the 'switching' to the new tab, makes the experience very tedious for me. Hate having to keep switching back to the original tab after opening a link in a new tab. Hopefully the author will fix this, or the very least make it optional in a, 'sooner, rather than later' update.
    Pre3 (AT&T meta-doctored to ROW) webOS 2.2.4 build 3175
    TouchPad WiFi (32GB) - webOS 3.0.5 build 86
    App Catalog (US) - Vodafone (India)

    Treo 180 > 270 > 600 > 650 > 680 > Pre+ > Pre2 > Pre+ > Pre3 & tPad
    brum likes this.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjay View Post
    I already doctored with 3.0.2, hoping to see some noticeable gain in performance, but it did not really help. By the way, the 3.0.2 doctor became available within a day of the update, if I remember correctly.


    Ditto on this too. Already have the advanced browser. But, although I like the tabbed browsing, the 'switching' to the new tab, makes the experience very tedious for me. Hate having to keep switching back to the original tab after opening a link in a new tab. Hopefully the author will fix this, or the very least make it optional in a, 'sooner, rather than later' update.
    yeah. i'd be frustrated too if 3.0.2 didnt live up to my expectations.

    what kind of suggestions would you offer the developer in regards to opening in a new tab? right now, its only perhaps marginally more tedious switching tabs instead of switching from a new card. Perhaps a preference option that keeps the current page in focus when a new tab is launched?
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