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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by GodShapedHole View Post
    And then, one year later, bam! App Store on the iPhone. Changed everything! Online store for the first time! (Sony PS3 store doesn't count, and neither do Linux repositories, Apple is always the first to count).
    Funny how that works in Apple's favor, and they never make any claim to being first to anything. It's always just assumed they make the assertion by those that believe otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by GodShapedHole View Post
    And now we're talking about why the Internet sucks and we need a dedicated app for every website because websites are just so hard to navigate and apps make things so much easier.
    Not every website or service needs a dedicated app; it depends on the product and content the site delivers that dictates what's appropriate for a mobile device.

    Quote Originally Posted by GodShapedHole View Post
    Wouldn't it be better to have one dedicated TV for every station? Instead of having a stupid TV that forces you to flick between channels? Because that latter TV is the Internet: one app that gives you access to all sorts of content, as opposed to all sorts of apps giving you access to ONE kind of content each. (of course there's still great and useful apps out there... But I don't consider website mirrors to be part of them.)
    This is a terrible analogy. I would equate the television to the actual phone and each channel to a website/application. What's the difference?

    Quote Originally Posted by GodShapedHole View Post
    I'd say Apple is doing a famously fantastic job of telling people exactly what to think exactly when they're supposed tALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOJOBS
    Apple isn't telling anyone anything, it seems to be the market (or naysayers) that attempt to speak for Apple. Hyperbole?

    But back on subject. When the first iPhone released, there was a divergence in native vs. web. Developers quickly saw (and came to appreciate) what was possible by going native that wasn't yet possible through the web. That divergence is quickly closing thanks to HTML5, but we're not quite there yet. What we're now stuck with is the mindset of consumers (Android, iPhone, etc.) expecting an application for every idea and need that they may come across. It will take a while for those to be considered non-tech that don't know, or understand the mobile web but clearly understand the app store.

    It's all about discovery too

    For example, my sister, who know's nothing about the internet (with the exception of Facebook), is texting me all the time with new applications (games, magazines, etc.) that she discovers through the app store that she likely would have never discovered by browsing the web through her phone. There's no central repository — like the iOS app store, or Android market — found on the web that ties everything from magazines to games to standard utility applications like one would expect to find natively … yet.
    Last edited by barkerja; 06/20/2011 at 08:22 PM.
  2. vladi's Avatar
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    #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by sinsin07 View Post
    Don't sell it to me. Sell it to the public.
    Thanks for reading my lenghty post.

    One person at a time
  3. #43  
    Your sister knows nothing about the internet but she knows about Facebook? Um, ok.
    Are you trying to hurt me?
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    Funny how that works in Apple's favor, and they never make any claim to being first to anything. It's always just assumed they make the assertion by those that believe otherwise.
    Yes, and it's you doing the assuming. I never said Apple claimed to have been the first - it's just that that's what nearly everybody, including big media, is always saying. And if a large enough number of people is repeating a fallacy over and over again, it becomes social truth. This is what's constantly happening with Apple. I have no idea how often I've read that Apple invented smartphones. They didn't.



    Not every website or service needs a dedicated app; it depends on the product and content the site delivers that dictates what's appropriate for a mobile device.
    Yes, thank you. 95% of websites don't need an app, they need a browser. Yet it seems like 95% of websites (get your fresh hyperbole right here!) are looking to code two iOS apps in objective-C simply because hey - why have a browser that all your content lives in if you can have a million apps each displaying one website's content?



    This is a terrible analogy. I would equate the television to the actual phone and each channel to a website/application. What's the difference?
    that a browser has all websites (just like a TV has all channels) and an application shows you ONE website, and if you want to go to another website, you don't tap a bookmark, you close the app, search for the other website's app, and tap that. duh. While we're at the divide and conquer game, maybe we should have one app for the precentral news section, one for the precentral store, one for each forum and so on... Complicated you say? Why have one app for every website, then? Just the right amount of complexity, not too simple (like opening them in a browser, which is soooo 2000s), not too complicated?



    Apple isn't telling anyone anything, it seems to be the market (or naysayers) that attempt to speak for Apple. Hyperbole?
    nobody is speaking for Apple, Apple does enough speaking for itself. They're not telling anyone anything? "We can't implement flash worth crap, so everybody should jump away from flash" - suddenly there is a worldwide discussion about the merits of flash and why flash sucks. "This is the post-PC era!" - and suddenly tech publications everywhere don't care for PCs anymore, quoting Steve at every turn. "iPad is magical!" - do a search for iPad and magical and count the instances in which serious journalistic publications call the iPad magical, without any ""s around the word, without saying: "jobs called it..." - simply calling it magical as a matter of course. True, this isn't Apple itself, but the media are often taking Apple PRPRPR $and$ $propagating$ $it$ $without$ $comment$ $or$ $criticism$ $at$ $all$, $making$ $readers$ $believe$ $they$'$re$ $not$ $reading$ $cut$-$and$-$pasted$ $Apple$ $PR$ $but$ $tech$ $journalism$.

    But back on subject. When the first iPhone released, there was a divergence in native vs. web. Developers quickly saw (and came to appreciate) what was possible by going native that wasn't yet possible through the web. That divergence is quickly closing thanks to HTML5, but we're not quite there yet. What we're now stuck with is the mindset of consumers (Android, iPhone, etc.) expecting an application for every idea and need that they may come across. It will take a while for those to be considered non-tech that don't know, or understand the mobile web but clearly understand the app store.
    ok. Like I said, I don't question the fact that there are A LOT of things that need apps, but displaying a website... I don't think so.

    It's all about discovery too

    For example, my sister, who know's nothing about the internet (with the exception of Facebook), is texting me all the time with new applications (games, magazines, etc.) that she discovers through the app store that she likely would have never discovered by browsing the web through her phone. There's no central repository like the iOS app store, or Android market found on the web that ties everything from magazines to games to standard utility applications like one would expect to find natively yet.
    What you mean is called a "portal" and they used to be all the rage before Google came along, blew all existing search engines out of the water, and put everything you might look for right at your fingertips. She could just search for stuff on google, you know? But she doesn't, because the web is sooo boring and uncool and apps are so hip now. Rather download an app for www.blah.com because you saw it on the App Store.
  5. #45  
    There are situations where apps are better than web, although that web is optimized. As said before, navigating forums using a specific app provides a better experience (cough, cough),. Could anyone live without that? Of course, but it's a commodity, like many others.

    While on a big device like the Touchpad you can do more things with desktop webs, that doesn't mean it's as easy or as comfortable as using a dedicated app (maybe the best example of this are the desktop Twitter clients).

    -- Sent from my Emulator using Communities Beta
    Newness Developments apps:

  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by sinsin07 View Post
    Don't sell it to me. Sell it to the public.
    I think the reason he's trying to "sell" it to you instead of the public is that it's not the public that's equating branded apps to to URLs.

    As the mobile market (smartphones and tablets) continues to fragement, there will be less demand for "vanity apps" by companies.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by playboy View Post
    Your sister knows nothing about the internet but she knows about Facebook? Um, ok.
    Yeah. She uses Facebook on her iPhone, that's about it. I know it's a difficult concept to understand how someone could have such a lack of understanding of the internet but there's a whole segment outside these forums that have little to no understanding of the internet and/or mobile world as a whole.

    It's funny, sad and frustrating (for me at least, having to support and deal with people like my mother and sister). Just a few weeks ago, my mom just discovered apps on her phone (after having owned an iPhone for over a year) and went on an app-downloading-binge. She calls me up a few days later and asks: “John. Are iPhone applications the same thing as the ‘internet’?” — I let out a big chuckle and just said "Yep."
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by GodShapedHole View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    Funny how that works in Apple's favor, and they never make any claim to being first to anything. It's always just assumed they make the assertion by those that believe otherwise....
    Yes, and it's you doing the assuming. I never said Apple claimed to have been the first - it's just that that's what nearly everybody, including big media, is always saying. And if a large enough number of people is repeating a fallacy over and over again, it becomes social truth. This is what's constantly happening with Apple. I have no idea how often I've read that Apple invented smartphones. They didn't.
    Here's a prime example, and I'm going to step out on a limb and make a prediction. The iPhans will explain to us all that all of the other tablets before didn't really count, that Apple was "the first" because ... (fill in the blank).

    They weren't though.

    Here's the example (from Are we too hard on Apple's iPad rivals? | ZDNet ).
    To most folks, the iPad equals the tablet market. And rightly so: Apple was there first, created a form factor and priced its wares so aggressively that rivals can’t undercut the iPad.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Here's a prime example, and I'm going to step out on a limb and make a prediction. The iPhans will explain to us all that all of the other tablets before didn't really count, that Apple was "the first" because ... (fill in the blank).

    They weren't though.

    Here's the example (from Are we too hard on Apple's iPad rivals? | ZDNet ).
    That's not what is being discussed above; claims are often made that Apple personally lays claim to being first to a market.

    I would never argue that Apple was first to anything, but I would argue they were first to mass adoption.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    That's not what is being discussed above; claims are often made that Apple personally lays claim to being first to a market.
    I include GodShapedHole's quote for a reason. The example I gave was an example of what he was talking about - I never said Apple claimed to have been the first - it's just that that's what nearly everybody, including big media, is always saying.
    And, of course, though your response is a more tempered than most, it's much what I also predicted. All the tablets that came before don't really count, becuase Apple was the first to mass adoption.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    Yeah. She uses Facebook on her iPhone, that's about it. I know it's a difficult concept to understand how someone could have such a lack of understanding of the internet but there's a whole segment outside these forums that have little to no understanding of the internet and/or mobile world as a whole.
    Uh. My 74 year dad knows what the internet is and doesn't know what a forum is nor has he used a forum. But he has used the inet to pay bills and research stuff. He even had an iphone 3GS. Imagine that. A person with an iphone knowing what the internet is.

    If your sis has a iphone I would think that she is some what aware of stuff like the internets. You don't have to go to forums to know what a internet is. Homeless people know what the internet is and how to use one and most of them don't have iphones. The horrah!


    -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
    Are you trying to hurt me?
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I include GodShapedHole's quote for a reason. The example I gave was an example of what he was talking about - I never said Apple claimed to have been the first - it's just that that's what nearly everybody, including big media, is always saying.
    And, of course, though your response is a more tempered than most, it's much what I also predicted. All the tablets that came before don't really count, becuase Apple was the first to mass adoption.
    I never said nor insinuated that those before the iPad didn't count. But one has to ask: do any of those that came before the iPad deserve any sort of recognition? I guess that's subjective, but we can take an objective approach: what sets the pre-iPad tablets apart from the iPad? What differentiators are there that possibly went unrecognized that might appeal on a large scale?
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    I never said nor insinuated that those before the iPad didn't count.
    And yet, you do so with your next question:
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    But one has to ask:and y do any of those that came before the iPad deserve any sort of recognition? I guess that's subjective,
    It's not "subjective" if we're discussing who was first, who invented it, etc. That was the point that was being made. Apple pretends they invented it (and yes, I'll be more than happy to find you quotes from Jobs where he pretty strongly implies that Apple was the originator of many things that they were not, all the way back to GUI interfaces where they actually filed suit over it)
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    but we can take an objective approach: what sets the pre-iPad tablets apart from the iPad? What differentiators are there that possibly went unrecognized that might appeal on a large scale?
    There is no doubt that Apple succeeded where others failed. I suspect that if one could decidedly answer all of those questions, they would be heading up a competing company. Personally, I feel it succeeded because of the size and ease of use, and timing (the public is more accepting of a less powerful device that is more convenient these days).

    I suspect that the TP is HP's effort to combine what was successful for the iPad, and add their own innovations to the mix.

    Which is really what Apple did with the iPad, copied what worked and added their own innovations.
  14.    #55  
    This video is in German. At 1.04 minutes the CNN app shows up.

  15. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by akitayo View Post
    This video is in German. At 1.04 minutes the CNN app shows up.

    Aren't those just search engines? As he's flicking through cards, you can see the CNN card is just cnn.com website, so I assume that's all this is.
  16. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I think the reason he's trying to "sell" it to you instead of the public is that it's not the public that's equating branded apps to to URLs.

    As the mobile market (smartphones and tablets) continues to fragement, there will be less demand for "vanity apps" by companies.
    The weak part of your post is highlighted in red. Never a good idea when making a point to use phrases "I think", "I don't see why", "I cannot understand", etc. The second weak point is trying to guess what someone else post means.

    For your second comment refer to post 54. When you get some links that say otherwise post 'em. Otherwise I'll just fan away the smoke.
  17. #58  
    The tone of this thread is so anti-apps. If webOS had tons of apps none of you would be complaining.
  18. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by sinsin07 View Post
    The weak part of your post is highlighted in red. Never a good idea when making a point to use phrases "I think", "I don't see why", "I cannot understand", etc. The second weak point is trying to guess what someone else post means.
    Ahh, so you don't think (notice I used that word again) anyone should post opinions? Or maybe you're saying that folks should just post without thinking...

    Quote Originally Posted by sinsin07 View Post
    For your second comment refer to post 54. When you get some links that say otherwise post 'em. Otherwise I'll just fan away the smoke.
    I read the post 54. It doesn't speak to the continued fragmentation of tablets at all. You saw the word "smartphones" in that introduction sentence, right?

    Not only that, far from proving your point, here's what the author of the piece actually said:

    (quoting another writer)
    the fragmentation issue in mobile only gets worse with each year with new devices, different implementations and operating systems, the cost of rolling out an app across multiple devices around the world can increase exponentially. As such, the browser provides the prospect of being the great unifier so you can truly design once and run everywhere (where the browser is available). For the simple apps that are less interactive and require less multimedia capability, like the popular social networking and news/weather apps, browser provides the perfect avenue to maximize impact with least amount of development.
    To which the author responds:
    Sharma’s thought made perfect sense to me back then, and while I’m still in general agreement with him, I’m beginning to wonder if the situation has changed. Instead of a mobile market with a number of platforms, we’re now witnessing the space become dominated by just two in Android and iOS. The third spot is up for grabs, although Windows Phone 7 has recently gained perceived momentum. BlackBerry / QNX and webOS are in transition, while Symbian is on the way out.
  19.    #60  
    "I think" is similar to IMO.
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