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  1. #121  
    Quote Originally Posted by cobrakon View Post
    Don't be a smart aleck, you know good and well that we are talking about the proliferation of *.com "apps" that there are on iOS and not the function independent ones. Those companies want eyeballs on their pages and if said devices can't see their pages because it's creator says they can't, those sites have a problem.

    Their solution? Bring your site to them (and all those eyeballs). Windows 7 is the most successful OS of all time and by your logic companies should be creating "apps" that blend with the W7 UI and interface elements but this does not happen? Why? Because it is REDUNDANT do to the fact the content is readily available.

    Try as a test to load flashblock on your browser and go about your day to day. You'll begin to see that 40% factor become more apparent. Now for test #2, those same sites that are now unusable with flash off 99% have an "app" on iOS. When the Android flood saturates the tablet market, will we see the same? I can guarantee that companies don't want to pay for BOTH web designers AND mobile app programmers when they don't have to. With iOS those two ARE mutually exclusive, whereas with webOS, those can be largely the same team. (less employee overhead directly impacts bottom-line financials.
    So the idea here is webos does not need as many apps because it has a web browser and the os is web based? Just asking.
  2. #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by cobrakon View Post
    Try as a test to load flashblock on your browser and go about your day to day. You'll begin to see that 40% factor become more apparent. Now for test #2, those same sites that are now unusable with flash off 99% have an "app" on iOS. When the Android flood saturates the tablet market, will we see the same? I can guarantee that companies don't want to pay for BOTH web designers AND mobile app programmers when they don't have to. With iOS those two ARE mutually exclusive, whereas with webOS, those can be largely the same team. (less employee overhead directly impacts bottom-line financials.
    Don't forget to change your user agent as well since a lot of sites content adapt for the platform.
  3. Doz007's Avatar
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    #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by nyallj View Post
    This isn't about which tablet I own, this is about the "essential apps" the Touchpad will come with.

    But to answer your snark, the company I work with happens to be the only authorised Apple dealer in my country. I am the technical support for these products. I have, and do use an iPad. We also retail laptops and desktops. Needless to say, the only reason iPads are bought here is because it is a 'status symbol'. Our laptops outsell them for functionality. I own a Dell 15R laptop because of it's functionality over the iPad.

    Having seen webOS' capabilities, I'm very excited that the Touchpad is coming. Since we also are HP dealers, if the Touchpad and phones get worldwide distribution, I will be pushing for us to carry these products also. I smile to think of demoing a Touchpad side by side with an iPad to our customers.

    The only thing I like about the iPad is the Garageband app. But I like to fiddle around with my music instruments too, so the iPad for me remains a splurge, and a purchase made with a lack of common sense.

    I live on youtube, listening to music, sharing this music constantly to my facebook page and feed.

    I read all my books in electronic format on my Treo.

    I spend a lot of time on ebay and Amazon's site making purchases (most times for other people - I earn a few dollars this way). I get notifications from these sites just fine by email. And lots of the items I purchase have flash content on their pages on these sites.

    Given that the Touchpad will do the above effortlessly, with what looks like the ability to possibly share my books between the Touchpad and a phone with Touch-To-Share, you can see why the only tablet that makes sense for me to purchase is the Touchpad.

    By that reasoning on mine, you can see why I consider the iPad to be nothing more than a fad. Now, how do you think customers will react when they see a Touchpad and phone demoed next to an iPad? I think functionality, and practicality will win out, over 'cool'. But then, 'cool' becomes redefined, eh?

    Now to get back on topic. The fact that the Touchpad will be so functional, means that 'essential apps' may be all that end up being necessary. Now I haven't even touched on the corporate functions of the Touchpad, which would come in very handy. But I didn't do that, because I just wanted to touch on why I would prefer the Touchpad over the iPad for myself.
    Thanks for the reply,

    All your books can sync between iPhone & iPad also, with no need for any touch to share. Android has the same website sharing feature already in place on desktops/laptops in the form of Chrome to Phone. How long before they extend that funtionality to the Android tablets?

    I'm fairly sure you'll agree that consumers already have the choice between tablets that are able to display flash content, yet still choose the iPad due to battery life, apps & design. Why will the Touchpad be any different?

    When the original Pre was launched, it was head & shoulders above the iPhone in terms of funtionality.........look how that turned out.

    I currently own a PlayBook and iPad, and still choose to do things via a dedicated app in the vast majority of cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by cobrakon View Post
    Don't be a smart aleck, you know good and well that we are talking about the proliferation of *.com "apps" that there are on iOS and not the function independent ones. Those companies want eyeballs on their pages and if said devices can't see their pages because it's creator says they can't, those sites have a problem.

    Their solution? Bring your site to them (and all those eyeballs). Windows 7 is the most successful OS of all time and by your logic companies should be creating "apps" that blend with the W7 UI and interface elements but this does not happen? Why? Because it is REDUNDANT do to the fact the content is readily available.
    My point is that they are designed to blend in with W7. That's why the UI is based around a mouse and keyboard interface. Small fonts that are easy to click on and navigate through using a cursor. These UI elements were built from the ground up & have been refined over the past decade or so in order to get where we are today.

    Well these websites are excellent to navigate on big screens using mouse and keyboards, they don't translate well into a touchscreen. Which is why dedicated apps are important.
  4. #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by cobrakon View Post
    Don't be a smart aleck, you know good and well that we are talking about the proliferation of *.com "apps" that there are on iOS and not the function independent ones.
    No YOU don't be a smart aleck. The guy said websites don't cut it. And the response was a lack of flash on a tablet. The irrefutable fact is is that all apps are not flash thus a website cannot do everything. And Most websites are not flash. Bury you're head in the sand if you want to but those are facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by cobrakon View Post
    by your logic companies should be creating "apps" that blend with the W7 UI and interface elements but this does not happen? Why? Because it is REDUNDANT do to the fact the content is readily available.
    what silliness are you talking about. I haven't even mentioned Windows 7. I said apps aren't all flash and since all apps aren't covered by websites apps are important. How does that relate to windows? This is about Palm needing apps. Has nothing to do with Windows 7.

    Quote Originally Posted by cobrakon View Post
    Try as a test to load flashblock on your browser and go about your day to day.
    i don't need any flashblock. I have a Pre. It doesn't get flash. And I surf the internet just fine. Like it or not you need apps and having a browser or having a browser with flash doesn't change that no matter how far in you're ears you jam you're fingers while screaming "La La La, I can't hear you reality!!!"
    Last edited by SnotBoogie; 05/29/2011 at 03:38 AM.
  5. #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by sinsin07 View Post
    So the idea here is webos does not need as many apps because it has a web browser and the os is web based? Just asking.
    no that's not the reason they don't need as many apps as (i am assuming apple)

    they don't need as many apps because the number of apps is not how you compete.

    if that defined competition than the iPhone would be outselling android phones, but it is not.

    what apps are is a feature, and for the feature to be complete you need enough to make people feel like they can find things they didn't know they needed, AND you need the apps people already know they want.


    what webOS does need is at least of magnitude of order more apps, and it needs to have an app to answer for the top 20 or so apps in each category of the iOS or android catalog.

    If most of those top apps in each category are website viewing apps, then yea, they will need more website viewing apps, but I have a hunch that that is not the majority of popular apps.
    There are four lights.
  6. #126  
    If you want the perfect example (in my opinion) how an excellent experience can be delivered through a dedicated app on a tablet as opposed to its website, check out zappos.com; I may even be inclined to create a video tomorrow to demonstrate (or you could just YouTube it).
  7. Doz007's Avatar
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    #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by windzilla View Post
    no that's not the reason they don't need as many apps as (i am assuming apple)

    they don't need as many apps because the number of apps is not how you compete.

    if that defined competition than the iPhone would be outselling android phones, but it is not.

    what apps are is a feature, and for the feature to be complete you need enough to make people feel like they can find things they didn't know they needed, AND you need the apps people already know they want.


    what webOS does need is at least of magnitude of order more apps, and it needs to have an app to answer for the top 20 or so apps in each category of the iOS or android catalog.

    If most of those top apps in each category are website viewing apps, then yea, they will need more website viewing apps, but I have a hunch that that is not the majority of popular apps.
    I completely agree that it's about quality not quantity, but sometimes the two go hand in hand.

    As for the point about the iPhone not selling as well as every single Android phone ever released combined

    Surely that's like saying nobody want's a Bugatti Veyron. Because if that was the case then they'd be outselling cars made by Ford, but they're not.
    Last edited by Doz007; 05/29/2011 at 04:42 AM.
  8.    #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by Doz007 View Post

    As for the point about the iPhone not selling as well as every single Android phone ever released combined

    Surely that's like saying nobody want's a Bugatti Veyron. Because if that was the case then they'd be outselling cars made by Ford, but they're not.
    I'm a pretty good reader but I'm getting lost in some of these posts. At the same time you guys are sparking some thoughts so lets keep mulling over this.

    What we need here is segmentation of the market: both on the app user side and the app maker side.
    We need to ask also what are the proper segments?

    For instance, on the app maker side:
    Someone mentioned small business vs large business and I agree that starts to be a smarter categorization. Small business makes up the majority (over 90%) of the entities in this country. In general, they clearly don't have a lot of staff or capital to dedicate to IT. HP and others know this and use a different sales approach for them.
    So at this point, they would be less likely to craft one app, let alone re-purpose it for other platforms, it just doesn't pay for them. An exception, however, could
    be some industries where apps provide the basic service that the small business offers. For instance, I could see that an online education company might want apps out there so users could take the courses on their mobile devices. That could be a distinguishing factor for that small company to earn business and so might justify paying some devs to create for one or more platforms.

    So we should be at least distinguishing between size and industry.

    For the app users:
    The market is young enough that researchers are still waiting to see. For instance, that article which showed the android phone buyers are not downloading apps (avg less than 100 users per app or something like that?) shows some buyers care less about dedicated apps than others.
    I think we should be thinking both feature functions and apps here.
    For instance:
    if there is some kind of conferencing feature built into the phone (see precentral front page); OTA updates vs itunes etc.; "elegant" and informative notifications etc

    that might draw in some users over having apps. I would be looking to segment "killer features" and trying to understand which types of users they would appeal to

    Ditto for the apps.

    And bear in mind, right now there might be a "long tail" for the features and the apps separately--sort of like the cable stations offering 700 channels while knowing 10 subs will be interested in watching channel 699.

    The app market is still young enough, also, that we've barely seen all the innovation it can do. HP hinted they are looking for new innovative apps over reproducing the catalogue of well-known hits (except for "the essential apps").
    Lets see what they show us. Fortunately, we have only a few weeks to wait.
  9. #129  
    Your links indicate why HP's strategy is business first, then consumers as well as TouchPad then Pre! Not only is business HP's strength but it is Apple's weakness, although they have made huge inroads because there was no competition! HP had to attack the tablet market because it is going to affect the laptop/netbook market. Not everyone needs a laptop or even a netbook for their mobile needs. A tablet will suffice. The question is will Apple conquer the business market faster than HP can capture the consumer market? There is certainly crossover but the funding sources are drastically different ...
  10. #130  
    Quote Originally Posted by geewhiz View Post
    Your links indicate why HP's strategy is business first, then consumers as well as TouchPad then Pre! Not only is business HP's strength but it is Apple's weakness, although they have made huge inroads because there was no competition! HP had to attack the tablet market because it is going to affect the laptop/netbook market. Not everyone needs a laptop or even a netbook for their mobile needs. A tablet will suffice. The question is will Apple conquer the business market faster than HP can capture the consumer market? There is certainly crossover but the funding sources are drastically different ...
    All plans sound great on paper until they make first contact with the enemy.
    Last edited by sinsin07; 05/29/2011 at 09:42 PM.
  11.    #131  
    Quote Originally Posted by sinsin07 View Post
    All plans sound great on paper until they make first contact with the enemy.
    Wow, where were you when we got into all these wars this past decade? Could have used your wisdom, might have saved us many lives (and treasure too).
  12. #132  
    you realize all "all essential apps" could mean is that its going to have email, calendar, notes, and a browser right. unlike the playbook
  13.    #133  
    Quote Originally Posted by dcbo89 View Post
    you realize all "all essential apps" could mean is that its going to have email, calendar, notes, and a browser right. unlike the playbook
    yes, if you meant "only", that would be a verrry minimalist interpretation.
  14. #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by sinsin07 View Post
    That may effect Android but not IOS. Less device models. Large market/mind share. IOS is going to be a big player for some time to come..
    Nope, it's still the same problem. It doesn't matter if the market is fractured into several models from one company, or seveal models from several companies, as the market is spread across more and more models, that will involve writing custom apps for more and more models. Eventually, they will reach a point of diminishing returns.

    Apple is losing market share. I don't see that trend changing. As it happens, the market it will become more fractured, making multi-development more needed.
  15. #135  
    Quote Originally Posted by dcbo89 View Post
    you realize all "all essential apps" could mean is that its going to have email, calendar, notes, and a browser right. unlike the playbook
    This totally reminds me of a Brian Regan routine about losing his luggage... and the airline gave him a tiny little bag that said "essentials" on the side...

    There idea of "essentials" didn't match his, apparently. Sorry for that little aside.

    about 1 minute in...

    Hey Herb, Apple is losing market share only because the market is growing so fast. Apple's sales are accelerating, but by definition share goes down with the introduction of competition. The key is whether the competition can grow faster than the market. So far they haven't. It's only that each competitor takes another bit, but no one competitor has taken enough to outpace market growth. So it's death by 1,000 paper cuts.

    It's great to see your post. I haven't seen you in a while!!!
  16.    #136  
    For clarification, let's go back to the exact words the HP rep used in the article as the word "essential apps" was written by the reporter.

    "TouchPad has all the apps that most customers use most of the time," he said.
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    #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    This totally reminds me of a Brian Regan routine about losing his luggage... and the airline gave him a tiny little bag that said "essentials" on the side...

    There idea of "essentials" didn't match his, apparently. Sorry for that little aside.

    about 1 minute in...

    Hey Herb, Apple is losing market share only because the market is growing so fast. Apple's sales are accelerating, but by definition share goes down with the introduction of competition. The key is whether the competition can grow faster than the market. So far they haven't. It's only that each competitor takes another bit, but no one competitor has taken enough to outpace market growth. So it's death by 1,000 paper cuts.

    It's great to see your post. I haven't seen you in a while!!!
    Taking down the iPad market share is gonna be a pretty slow process. Just as the competition is getting stronger, Apple's relentlessness isn't about to slow down anymore so then its competition. If it is listening to critics and fans alike and if rumors turn out to be true, they will be announcing a completely revamped alert system in less then a months time at WWDC to be implemented in iOS 5.

    I love webOS, I will take it over iOS regardless of how unobtrusive iOS's alert system becomes. I am just trying to put things into perspective and put forward the reality that because the iPad is so established, any competitor/'s wanting to take a considerable chunk out of its marketshare, it will really have to be something great in many many ways, app selection, aesthetic design, ease of use, battery life, performance, everything the iPad is known to be good at, the competitor has to be at the very least 2 levels better to even be noticed by potential tablet buyers much less seriously considered against the iPad.
  18. #138  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post

    I still like what Dieter said in the last podcast. HP should hold a launch event featuring apps because Feb 9 was completely devoid of apps - except for magazines. If they don't have an an event then it's because they don't have the apps.
    Why hold a press conference to announce apps unless the conference is wrapped around an event dedicated to the release of the Touchpad? I don't think that they're going to hold an event for the release and therefore, they will not hold an event to say "Hey everybody. Look we have 350 apps 100 of them are the essential apps that most everyone uses"! I think that they should issue a press release incorporating the release of the Touchpad and mention apps within the prprpr.

    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    HP seems to be in it for the long haul. I think their goal is to get a tablet out there no matter how few they sell. Like it or not, HP doesn't really have a lot riding on the success of the first iteration of the TP.
    I hope that you're not just figuring this out. Especially, after various executive vice presidents within HP have repeatedly said that this, this being the tablet and smartphone arena, is a marathon and not a sprint. Yes they're in it for the long term and they're not going to fold up camp if sales of the Touchpad and webOS phones for 2011 don't sale like Superbowl tickets.
    Are you trying to hurt me?
  19. #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    In that case, I don't see why anyone would expect the TP to be launched with any more software than the Playbook was.
    In which case? The Playbook launched with two native apps I believe bc only EA had the native development kit, which is still in beta and maybe one other company (Rovio) outside of EA has it. HP, correct me if I'm wrong made the beta Enyo SDK available to any dev several weeks back. That has allowed devs to begin to build apps. Playbook launched mainly with Adobe Air apps that were widely panned in reviews. Playbook launched with no Kindle app, no magazine apps, no other games outside of EA's two games, no top 20 essential apps from whatever platform is the flavor of the month and most importantly, no other native apps from regular joe developer.

    So with what we know of the apps that will launch on the Touchpad (see Think Beyond event, HP: ‘Touchpad will be better than number one’ tablet - Telegraph and TouchPad Roundup: apps, rumors, and an easter egg? | PreCentral.net | The #1 Palm Pre and Pixi Community) and the ability to have current Mojo developed apps, albeit in a small window, available how do you jump to the conclusion that the Touchpad will no more software than the Playbook? If anything the Touchpad is launching with a nice suite of quality apps that the Playbook doesn't even have and didn't launch with.
    Are you trying to hurt me?
  20. #140  
    I need to see:

    - something similar to MS Word
    - something similar to MS Excel
    - something similar to some Adobe products like Photoshop and Illustrator
    - something similar to iMovie or garageband for the iPAD

    before I even consider getting a TP.

    Are these kinds of productivity (useful) apps going to be available?

    That's the real question.
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