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  1.    #1  
    Hi,

    I just read a few messages about some top companies that are pulling out of the WebOS market.

    We all know about most of those companies but I will list a few off the top of my head:

    Audible.com
    Epocrates
    Docs to Go
    etc.

    Microsoft to make sure that there are apps available for their new Windows Mobile Platform, paid developers to make those apps.

    So my question is this:

    Should HP (since everyone is saying they have deep pockets) start to pay some of these large development companies to make apps for WebOS 2.0. Especially to give WebOS 2.0 another fighting chance. Let's face it, WebOS is going to have to win over the market all over again and needs to work harder than it did the last time.

    I want to make sure that I am not putting down any of the developers here that have worked so hard to keep WebOS alive and kicking. I appreciate all the work they do. I'm really talking about the companies that have licensing or propriety (whatever the correct term I should be using to describe these companies). Otherwise, any of the Homebrew developers could make any of these apps.

    Remember, without apps, WebOS will die! And we are not talking about games. We haven't had the quality apps for the enterprise, which is the area that sells tons of phones. Major corporations!

    So should HP pay! And quickly!

    Rob

    UPDATE: I want to be clear, there is a big difference between Developer Incentives Programs and what I am suggesting here. In the Developer Incentives Program, developers can choose the area or type of program they want out there. Here I am saying we need specific apps and should HP pay for those specific apps (or even do them in-house) to be made and brought to market.
    Last edited by rlanza1054; 11/01/2010 at 01:34 PM.
  2. sylau90's Avatar
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    #2  
    I think no...Firstly,what they need to do is expand the market globally, or at least in some countries with high purchasing power...In consequence,developers will foresee the potential of webOS...

    Alternatively, HP can do something like this Microsoft did...but is for developers and consumers, not employees...here is the example...

    Microsoft confirms it is giving all 89,000 employees free Windows Phone 7 handsets
  3. rkguy's Avatar
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    #3  
    i think they should but I am probably not liked for this.
    I had previously posted about a number of apps that are not with us today and that webOS has potential for innovation specifically in letting apps interact BUT

    I think HP needs to take some devs and form case-scenarios where
    Advertising, Dev Relations, and Engineering work together to form ADs centered around a theme. My favorite is driving. They would get major app vendors onboard by paying them and then work with the devs to make the programs work separately but also allow interaction.

    One commercial would be about us going places in our cars, getting from A to B. Another commercial would be you waiting at the doctors office etc, another would be you out on the town, another would be you in a business meeting or at school. Each would have featured apps.

    In the car commercial for example:

    The commercial would jump from car to car. Car A has one commuter going to work, car B has a carpool, car C is taking her kids to school or the mall, etc.

    You of course have bluetooth handsfree phone over the stereo and you can also listen to music through the phone, but all while allowing the other programs to run in one stack of cards.

    A weather app would be able to see your route from your GPS app and alert you to upcoming inclement weather (you don't know a flash rain event until you are in Florida). Your geostrings app would alert you to pick up something as you are passing by it. The trapster app can also see your route and alert you to upcoming traps (audibly) far enough ahead of time to avoid them. I mean there's so many apps for the car that can integrate. ... ... ... there's real time gas mileage apps to help you minimize fuel consumption and give you more detailed alerts of car problems than the dummy lights. if you have a problem, the app could alert you and suggest the nearest auto shops in big buttons. If you select to go to one, the route then gets changed in the navigation app. If you have a major problem then it automatically prompts you with your registered AAA or Geico (etc.) roadside assistance phone number and gives you the error code your car has. The gas mileage app can save routes from the nav app and compare to trip gas mileage and suggest your best route to save gas (provided you use more than one route). If the touchstone ever works right in the car, then they can show person from car "D" getting out of the car to go in the mall and just pulling her phone off the touchstone, music automatically pausing until she puts her headphones in. Super slick and easy. Car A is delayed by traffic on the way to the meeting at work and an email is automatically drafted that says where he is, that he is late because of traffic and when he should be there. maybe it gives a button selection option for send invitation for phone conference, etc to customize it without needing to spend time looking at the phone. Heck, I mean, if driver A needs to be at work by time X as shown on her calendar (with location), then when she wakes up she could press a button in a third party app designed to check her work route for traffic (using the nav app, or google i guess) and recommend what time to leave. Driver D could even have a social networking app running to see if anybody is checking nearby where you are and looking for company; useful for the girl driving to the mall to hang out.

    Anyway, this is far too long but there are about 5+ programs here that could be showcased and many of them aren't on webOS, the calendar interactivity app and checking rout for traffic don't even exist, but the other ones do.

    I should give a prize if anybody actually read this.
    --Tangential Tommy
    ...This programming stuff is actually addictive but really hard :/
  4. #4  
    Yes. Absolutely.
  5. #5  
    Yes, I think HP should pay to have top developers work with webOS, for critical apps, and in some cases I suspect they (and Palm before them) did, in their own way.

    Quote Originally Posted by sylau90 View Post

    Alternatively, HP can do something like this Microsoft did...but is for developers and consumers, not employees...
    And I think HP should follow this example for their employees as well, since they have 310,000 employees versus Microsoft's 89,000. Nearly a third of a million additional webOS smartphones would be a significant add for our OS of choice.
  6. reidme's Avatar
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    #6  
    Absolutely. Prime the pump. Palm could never had afforded it, but HP's got deep pockets and ought to use them to kickstart their new baby.
  7. #7  
    Not only would I pay developers to develop for webOS, but I would have my own inhouse development team whose sole purpose is to fill voids that our competitors have filled.

    A prime example would be the facebook app. Done inhouse it has become one of the best facebook apps available on any platform.

    If the big dogs don't want to help us out it's up to HP to provide the software that will keep people from migrating.

    Essentially, i'd be taking a page from the videogame industry.
  8. #8  
    yes they should. and there should be more hot apps competitions. maybe once every year? but only for new apps that have been added since the last hot apps competition. i think they are a great incentive.
  9. ieko's Avatar
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    #9  
    Yes, because webOS isn't even brought up in conversation. We have no mind-share.

    HP needs to have a team and they need to pay top devs to bring their apps over and get it ready for webOS 2.0.

    I personally am begging for an improved Google Maps app... PALLLLLMMMMMM!!!!! Masked avenger.. Get on this issue please!!!!
  10. #10  
    Palm/HP already did pay devs to develop webos apps.

    What do you think the two rounds paying 1 m in prize money for apps was about?

    Doing it that way was smart. First they get more for their money instead of paying individual firms for particular apps.

    Secondly paying directly has severe drawbacks. If you pick one company and pay them to develop - not only will you drive all their competion from the market - you also make others hold back - perhaps if we wait we'll get paid extra by HPalm to develop.

    Thirdly - Apart from a couple of new APIs all webos OS apps are also webos 2 apps. Every app profits from Stacks, Just Type, better performance etc...
    And devs will include webos 2.0 features into their apps gradually anyway as part of the update cycle.

    You can get away with bribing launch partners with special support, access and even money guarantees - but doing so after launch is very dangerous and probably counter-productive.

    I wouldn't be surprised to see HPalm do a 3rd app competition after webos 2 is widely available - to help move the app market ASAP into 5 figures - but I bet they won't widely pay (even top) devs to develop apps.

    And they won't need to.
    Most of what Palm suffered from will be in the past early next year. Failing hardware will be EOLd. Missing features (e.g. video camera) have mostly been fixed already or are part of webos 2. Q1 of 2011 will see a range of different form factor phones available. Plus tablet. Plus HP printers and other peripherals. Beyond 10k apps the relative size of the app markets will matter less and there'll be enough to cover most needs and even wants. Fears about Palm going bancrupt soonish have been removed by the buyout and HPs announcement to double down on webos.
    And it seems very unlikely that stupid, ineffective marketing campaigns will be repeated or not done at all due to lack of money.

    In short it will be a platform that devs (given a renewed upward trend in customers) will want to publish for (or at the very least port to). Those app companies *need* a wider range of customer base. Not to do HPalm a favour - but to just make money for themselves. Also because nobody wants to be at the mercy of Apple alone. And Android and webos are also the fallback markets when you were denied or delayed by Apple.
    Pre -> Pre3 & TP32 -> Nexus 5
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by rlanza1054 View Post
    Hi,

    I just read a few messages about some top companies that are pulling out of the WebOS market.

    We all know about most of those companies but I will list a few off the top of my head:

    Audible.com
    Epocrates
    Docs to Go
    etc.

    Rob
    Can we really count Docs To Go in this list. They probably would have continued development now that HP is on board, but they were bought out by Blackberry. I think that's the main reason they stopped developing for WebOS, despite what was said about difficulties with Palm's cooperation.
  12. #12  
    if they want their palm pad to succeed or be taken seriously in the market, then it's essential that certain enterprise apps be available for it. they should work with the devs and help fund the costs.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by tholap View Post
    paying directly has severe drawbacks. If you pick one company and pay them to develop - not only will you drive all their competion from the market - you also make others hold back - perhaps if we wait we'll get paid extra by HPalm to app market ASAP into 5 figures - but I bet they won't widely pay (even top) devs to develop
    I don't know how true that is. I can't think of a single market where creating 1st Party, or paying for 2nd party content has discouraged 3rd parties from trying to get a slice of the pie.

    Does Halo discourage people from making FPS games for Xbox? Does MS paying Epic for Gears of War make 3rd parties shy away from making shooters?

    If anything, successful exclusive content proves to third party developers that a profitable market exists. It encourages them to try their hand.

    Take apple for example. At one point they made an effort to block applications that 'duplicated features'. That's evidence that developers didn't shy away from providing alternatives to default software.
  14. #14  
    I share the same sentiments about the hot apps competition being a better strategy than Microsofts or the 2 Android Dev Challenges by Google.

    As you also said, it would also seem reasonable that they promote a third version of the competition. Particularly since the SDK had not evolved enough to allow hybrid SDK-PDK apps during the first two competitions.

    One overall drawback, however, is that some developers might grow very unhappy that they had to put a lot more development effort to write their apps with the initial version of the SDK (JSJSJS $and$ $CSS$ $can$ $be$ $very$ $difficult$ $and$ $at$ $least$ $would$ $take$ $about$ $as$ $much$ $time$ $as$ $any$ $dev$ $environment$ $to$ $gain$ $expertise$ $needed$ $to$ $write$ $robust$ $code$ $and$ $might$ $require$ $hiring$ $new$ $talent$) $which$ $they$ $are$ $now$ $required$ $to$ $support$. $The$ $limited$ $user$ $base$ $also$ $does$ $not$ $help$.

    Back to the point... I think Palm's strategy so far with the competitions has been geared more towards incentivizing for quantity. They could also probably also use the Android Dev Challenge-type approach to incentivize for quality and originality a third time around.



    Quote Originally Posted by tholap View Post
    Palm/HP already did pay devs to develop webos apps.

    What do you think the two rounds paying 1 m in prize money for apps was about?

    Doing it that way was smart. First they get more for their money instead of paying individual firms for particular apps.

    Secondly paying directly has severe drawbacks. If you pick one company and pay them to develop - not only will you drive all their competion from the market - you also make others hold back - perhaps if we wait we'll get paid extra by HPalm to develop.

    Thirdly - Apart from a couple of new APIs all webos OS apps are also webos 2 apps. Every app profits from Stacks, Just Type, better performance etc...
    And devs will include webos 2.0 features into their apps gradually anyway as part of the update cycle.

    You can get away with bribing launch partners with special support, access and even money guarantees - but doing so after launch is very dangerous and probably counter-productive.

    I wouldn't be surprised to see HPalm do a 3rd app competition after webos 2 is widely available - to help move the app market ASAP into 5 figures - but I bet they won't widely pay (even top) devs to develop apps.

    And they won't need to.
    Most of what Palm suffered from will be in the past early next year. Failing hardware will be EOLd. Missing features (e.g. video camera) have mostly been fixed already or are part of webos 2. Q1 of 2011 will see a range of different form factor phones available. Plus tablet. Plus HP printers and other peripherals. Beyond 10k apps the relative size of the app markets will matter less and there'll be enough to cover most needs and even wants. Fears about Palm going bancrupt soonish have been removed by the buyout and HPs announcement to double down on webos.
    And it seems very unlikely that stupid, ineffective marketing campaigns will be repeated or not done at all due to lack of money.

    In short it will be a platform that devs (given a renewed upward trend in customers) will want to publish for (or at the very least port to). Those app companies *need* a wider range of customer base. Not to do HPalm a favour - but to just make money for themselves. Also because nobody wants to be at the mercy of Apple alone. And Android and webos are also the fallback markets when you were denied or delayed by Apple.
  15. #15  
    Yes - HP sould also use its influence in the global market to get more attention to webOS and the potential for application development.
    Palm m130 > Verizon Trēo 650 > Verizon Trēo 755p > Verizon Palm Prē Plus > TouchPad > Verizon Palm Prē 2
    ~ The Future's Just Not What it Used To Be ~
  16. #16  
    For the smaller developers I think the hot apps competition works well and it would be nice to see HP continue to run that, maybe on a yearly or major update basis. I think though webOS would benefit from HP paying some of the big commercial companies to develop some official apps, amazon (both store and kindle), ebay, google, netflix (and lovefilm here in the uk) etc. All of those are the sort of big names that would help make webOS look better in the eye of the average consumer.
  17. #17  
    first they need to pay key vendors that sell services we want. Netflix, skype, on line banking, Kindle, etc. We want our phones to be extensions of our desktop computers.
  18. #18  
    Most of what is needed for enterprise gets gradually baked into webos anyway.
    Exchange support has been there for ages. VPN access (some protocols at least) is already in webos 2.0. Proxy support will no doubt follow in an update if not already in webos 2.0.

    QuickOffice already replaced Docs to go for readonly and editing has been announced.

    That leaves consumer stuff.

    3D games have been coming in for many months already.

    That leaves some of the cool stuff like Shazam. That needed 2 things:
    1) necessary API access (comes with webos 2)
    2) enough market buzz to justify porting such apps.
    We'll have to see about 2) - but with HP behind it there's a good chance of that during the next 2-3 quarters. And Palm already worked hard on making stuff easy to port. So - as soon as the market share looks it might be growing again many of those apps will eventually appear.

    Porting an app to another platform is a fraction of the cost of originally creating it. A market doesn't have to be as big as Apples to justify porting it - even if you wouldn't originally invest the cost of developing for it.

    To those who say that it's way too late and keep quoting Iphones 300k apps. Please think back a while when Android appeared. It started with few apps, while Apples app store was far ahead. Reviews about the G1 were mixed and many doubted Android had any chance.

    And BTW, Symbian dominated the smart phone business for quite some time. Later followed by BB and MS. Should they not have bothered? Should Apple not have launched the Iphone because Nokia, RIM and MS were so far ahead?
    I guess MS doesn't have a chance and shouldn't bother launching WP7 - after all they're killing off their dying old WinMob platform and WP7 would be happy to have 4% market share - they're starting at 0 atm.

    I'm sure HPalm made a deal about QuickOffice - it's readonly version gets bundled in after all. They might have sponsored some development too.

    Beyond that, a couple other carefully selected execpetions and possibly a 3rd competition HPalm doesn't have to bribe anybody (Skype, netflix, whatever). They'll come by themselves for a very simple reason - they want to sell stuff. All that's needed is a growing market share. 4-6 % is not nearly as bad as some people make it sound here. The mobile market is a growth business. In addition people get new phones roughly every 2 years. That allows for rapid growth - recent examples of that were Iphone and Android. Both entered markets with strong established players. Both managed to grab major market shares from that competition.

    Obviously - in the long run - we won't have dozens of platforms. Many will die off.
    WinMob has been abandoned by MS. WP7 has yet to prove it can save MS in the mobile space.
    Symbian will likely collapse and Nokia will try to establish Meego in its wake.

    Apple has been very successful - but some of Apples tactics grate on customers and devs alike. Some of Apples partners are less than completely happy.
    Android currently looks to be even more successful (contrary to what what many naysayers said in its early days) - but there's talk about fragmentation and the UI is not as refined as IOS and webos yet. And we'll have to see how Oracles patent attack vs Googles Dalvik (Java) engine plays out.

    I have no doubt that IOS and Android will be the 2 biggest platforms in the coming couple of years in this volatile space. But beyond that things get murky quickly. BB is very well established in the enterprise space - but has trouble to expand beyond that deep into the consumer market. Nokia is in a fragile position during its transition from Symbian to Meego. They are still big and outside the US a dominant player, but they could easily become has-beens within a few years.

    With HP establishing webos over a wide range of devices and Palm being much less aggravating than Apple they have a very fair chance to become the #3 player within just a very few years (2-4).

    Obviously IMHO. We'll see what's what in 2014. :-)
    Last edited by tholap; 10/31/2010 at 02:34 PM.
    Pre -> Pre3 & TP32 -> Nexus 5
  19. #19  
    put a $100 million hot apps program, and developers will come.


    everything you see bellow is doubled, cause once for paid, and once for free:

    quantity: dollar amount (cost)

    1: $1million ($1 million)
    20: $500k (10 million)
    100: $100k ($10 million)
    1000: $20k ($20 million)
    5k: envy17{$1k}($5 million)
    20k: phones{$200}($4 million)

    Which equals 50 million for paid, and 50 million for free apps. Considering you are giving over 50, 000 prizes, you should get at least that many apps. And if you, like me, believe that having an app catalog with over 50k apps, will move an extra 1million phones, then it won't cost hp a dime.

    You could have the host of who wants to be a millionaire announcing it, which would get hp crazy media coverage.
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by nimer55 View Post
    put a $100 million hot apps program, and developers will come.


    everything you see bellow is doubled, cause once for paid, and once for free:

    quantity: dollar amount (cost)

    1: $1million ($1 million)
    20: $500k (10 million)
    100: $100k ($10 million)
    1000: $20k ($20 million)
    5k: envy17{$1k}($5 million)
    20k: phones{$200}($4 million)

    Which equals 50 million for paid, and 50 million for free apps. Considering you are giving over 50, 000 prizes, you should get at least that many apps. And if you, like me, believe that having an app catalog with over 50k apps, will move an extra 1million phones, then it won't cost hp a dime.

    You could have the host of who wants to be a millionaire announcing it, which would get hp crazy media coverage.
    haha yeah, that'll work... but how unfortunate would it be if we got all these apps, with no consumers to sell them to. i can see it now, free phone for the 20 guys who had 50,000 downloads of there fart apps.

    for a contest this heavy to be worth the risk, we need the phone in more hands.
    Last edited by Mhunterjr; 10/31/2010 at 03:23 PM.
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